Anyone up for an intellectual exercise in cach burying?

[Swaveab]

If I was to hide paper money amigos.

I would wrap the money in shrink wrap bags you know the ones you can suck out all the air of. Coat in wax then insert into a cavity of Cement block, then concrete the hole up. So the money is sealed in the chambers of the block.

View attachment 1888958

Crow

I would not advise this so much as cinder blocks are porous and adding cement is adding material laden with moisture and is a bit acidic. On top of that it's liable to crack from shrinkage. It might be good at keeping people away from the stash, but it'll harm the stash.

 

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[MiddenMonster]

Here's some additional information to add to our body of knowledge about caching cash. This evening on Dateline the episode was "The Betrayal of Sarah Stern". It examined the disappearance of a 19 year old girl. During the episode it was revealed that Sarah was going to leave town and live on her own after discovering a little more than $25k in cash that had been squirreled away for her by her mother. The mother died of cancer in 2013. Shortly before Sarah Stern disappeared, she was going through family belongings in an old house and found a safe, which contained the cash, which she put in a safety deposit box at her bank. During the police investigation they found the cash, which was described as deteriorated and in poor condition. Some of the bills crumbled when handled. Since Sarah was born in about 1997, and her mom died in 2013 we can say that the cash is in the 15-19 year old range. The Stern's lived on the Jersey shore. If we consider the environment we would realize that it is near salt water in an area that sees the full turn of all four seasons. And even though this money was kept dry and in a safe, it still deteriorated significantly over a period of less than 20 years, and possibly far less since we don't know when her mother began putting this money aside for her. This money would have been handled by many people over the years before ending up in that safe, picking up trace amounts of various chemicals, acids, alkalies, bacteria and other substances. So I think at this point we can say that even in relatively dry conditions, cash is subject to a lot of deterioration, at least to the point where it would be hard to use in transactions, probably including trading it out at a bank without having to provide some kind of explanation.

EDIT: At a later point in the program, during the trial, testimony was that the money was found by Sarah Stern in a shoe box. I don't think this is too significant since it was most likely kept as dry as it would have been in a safe. And by the way, spoiler alert: The people involved with Sarah Stern's death were two of her best friends, one of which she knew since she was a small child and the other dude took her to prom. The alleged motive was that the guy who did the killing was after the cash and had planned the killing for months.

 

[Crow]

Here's some additional information to add to our body of knowledge about caching cash. This evening on Dateline the episode was "The Betrayal of Sarah Stern". It examined the disappearance of a 19 year old girl. During the episode it was revealed that Sarah was going to leave town and live on her own after discovering a little more than $25k in cash that had been squirreled away for her by her mother. The mother died of cancer in 2013. Shortly before Sarah Stern disappeared, she was going through family belongings in an old house and found a safe, which contained the cash, which she put in a safety deposit box at her bank. During the police investigation they found the cash, which was described as deteriorated and in poor condition. Some of the bills crumbled when handled. Since Sarah was born in about 1997, and her mom died in 2013 we can say that the cash is in the 15-19 year old range. The Stern's lived on the Jersey shore. If we consider the environment we would realize that it is near salt water in an area that sees the full turn of all four seasons. And even though this money was kept dry and in a safe, it still deteriorated significantly over a period of less than 20 years, and possibly far less since we don't know when her mother began putting this money aside for her. This money would have been handled by many people over the years before ending up in that safe, picking up trace amounts of various chemicals, acids, alkalies, bacteria and other substances. So I think at this point we can say that even in relatively dry conditions, cash is subject to a lot of deterioration, at least to the point where it would be hard to use in transactions, probably including trading it out at a bank without having to provide some kind of explanation.

EDIT: At a later point in the program, during the trial, testimony was that the money was found by Sarah Stern in a shoe box. I don't think this is too significant since it was most likely kept as dry as it would have been in a safe. And by the way, spoiler alert: The people involved with Sarah Stern's death were two of her best friends, one of which she knew since she was a small child and the other dude took her to prom. The alleged motive was that the guy who did the killing was after the cash and had planned the killing for months.

Gidday Midden

Well amigo ya shocked old Crow. So much so for old crows beak to fall off.

15-19 years is not a long time. It seems a little strange for notes to crumble after only 15 -19 years. Regardless of shoe box or safe. They must of been damp at one time?

But Apparently when the FED was asked: How long is the lifespan of U.S. paper money? I gather below is average table below is notes continually passed around?

Crow

	[TABLE="class: pubtables"] [TR] [TD="class: stub"]$1

[TD="class: data"]6.6 years[/TD]

[TD="class: stub"]$5[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]4.7 years[/TD]

[TD="class: stub"]$10[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]5.3 years[/TD]

[TD="class: stub"]$20[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]7.8 years[/TD]

[TD="class: stub"]$50[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]12.2 years[/TD]

[TD="class: stub"]$100[/TD]
[TD="class: data"]22.9 years[/TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[BillA]

Government is doing a better job of controlling law abiding citizens than criminals.

and why would such be a surprise?
pretty well understood that criminals do not wish to conform and the 'system' protects criminal rights
just look at the politicians who are so good the sheep elect them again
and again and...... infinitum ad nauseum

every society has a level of tolerated criminality, what one can get away with
the largest and most blatant are accepted, hence the political systems to legitimize the theft
so long as the small are jailed and the fat walk free.......
from this come revolutions

 

[BillA]

Crow, difficult to believe that you have not experienced the impermanence of concrete blocks
leave them in the rain here and in 5 years they break by hand
and hell will freeze before they can be waterproofed, special mortar

I still say to spend fiat

 

[MiddenMonster]

Well amigo ya shocked old Crow. So much so for old crows beak to fall off.

15-19 years is not a long time. It seems a little strange for notes to crumble after only 15 -19 years. Regardless of shoe box or safe. They must of been damp at one time?

I'm speculating that the Fed numbers are all based on "average" conditions. We don't really know all the factors that apply to the money that Sarah Stern found. The images Dateline showed were of several denominations, but some of them could have been prop money/Getty images and not the actual money. It did look like some of them were evidence photos. I'm guessing that the salty ocean air on the Jersey shore had a lot to do with the deterioration. But it should still be a warning to anyone planning to cache the cash that time is not on their side. As @BillA says, "Spend fiat". But in doing so you are going to end up with a lot of "stuff" that you may or may not want or need. It really is a Catch 22 if you find yourself in that situation, so the objective should be to convert cash to things that are legitimate and can be exchanged/liquidated in the future as needed. And as you pointed out, when exchanging cash of dubious origin you are going to take a hit on the face value of the money. Real estate is probably the best exchange, as it appreciates on a nice curve. But in the U.S., all real estate transactions are reported to the feds because they want their capital gains taxes (due in the quarter the sale occurred) and if you use found cash there are likely going to be red flags, especially if it is cash that trades hands. In other words, there is a solid paper trail that accompanies the transaction regardless of how it is paid for. The sad news is that this is only going to get worse as time passes and computers and digital transactions become the norm.

If you like conspiracy stuff, here's something that should scare the hell of of you. All paper money has serial numbers printed on the bills. But there is no reason why transactions involving digital cash couldn't--or doesn't also have serial numbers. Digital money can also be virtually divided up into denominations, and there can also be virtual serial numbers attached to them. Not only that, there is no reason why your Social Security or other identifying number can't be appended to those serial numbers to create a record of everyone, every place and every transaction that virtual dollar has been. Imagine the base serial number on the digital bill, followed by millions of digits that identify the who, what, where and why that digital dollar has been. There could theoretically be a 10 year history of that digital dollar that tells it's complete story. Likewise, there could be a complete history of every digital dollar you spend or receive. And unlike paper money, digital dollars don't wear out. The feds could "turn them off" at some point, but they don't wear out and there is no reason they can't be mapped and tracked indefinitely. That history can then be analyzed for evidence of crimes--or anything else the powers that be want to stir up trouble for. And in theory, any department in the government can request an analysis. Further, the histories and analysis of digital dollars can be sold to marketing interests the same way your online and purchasing behaviors are tracked by private companies. So in essence, your life is literally going to become an open virtual book for those with power or the money to buy it. Sleep well and sweet dreams...

 

[Crow]

Gidday Midden

No real shock there amigo. Governments would love to get rid of paper money. If every transaction is made by electronic funds transfer it can be tracked. It would destroy the black economy. They would love it a recipe for a Big Brother police state no different than the communists in china.

But amigo here is elephant in the room. The black economy is about 3 times bigger than the national economy If they did that whey would bankrupt their economy. Thousands of contractors and small business could not subsist and go under.

Add that to an era of thousands of jobs disappearing through AI and technology?

Anarchy amigo Anarchy.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Crow, difficult to believe that you have not experienced the impermanence of concrete blocks
leave them in the rain here and in 5 years they break by hand
and hell will freeze before they can be waterproofed, special mortar

I still say to spend fiat

Gidday Amigo

You must have very poor tranquility blocks in your part of world?

We have houses made of blocks that have been up 30-40 year still as strong as they was built many have survived various cyclones.

While Swaveab is correct that blocks can be porous. But if the block was added to a retainer wall off the ground. And the cash in sealed airless plastic bag I cannot see the problem. If the block buried in the ground then yes I see the possibility of moisture getting in.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Darn I can see my family will be pulling my retainer walls down now.

Crow

 

[BillA]

a little ramble on concrete blocks
40 years ago, when I came to CR, the nearest town was 3 hours by boat which was a hollowed tree with a 15 horse outboard, big power in those times. And that town was another 15 miles by dirt road from the next town where cement could be bought. There was a steel mold passed around that was used to make blocks from cement and sand, so the quality was hugely variable from rock hard concrete to soil cement. Only years later would store bought blocks become available.

The plant fabricated blocks use coarse aggregate only with the absolute minimum of concrete binder, and that's the problem. They must be protected from water, the unprotected splash zone is vulnerable and water/rain exposure will dissolve the buggers.
Cannot speak to blocks made elsewhere, but those here must be protected from water.

still say spend the fiat

edit: signs of the times
concrete (binder) blocks are no longer used in house construction, for several years precast reinforced concrete panels with a steel border seem to have taken their place
cities have houses like that, and I hate them
my house is wooden

 

[BillA]

Darn I can see my family will be pulling my retainer walls down now.

Crow

mmmm, don't know
does it rain that far south?

 

[Crow]

mmmm, don't know
does it rain that far south?

In my part of the world there seems like only two seasons flood and fire

Crow

 

[BillA]

no Crow, pestilence is there also
and with the help of something called politicians shuts cities with a switch
a part of the social deal presumably

 

[RTR]

One thing paper money in a plastic container would be metal detector proof

 

[BillA]

One thing paper money in a plastic container would be metal detector proof

don't they use rods or branches for that?

 

[RTR]

don't they use rods or branches for that?

Dunno ,But they do come in handy when fishing

 

[Surf_Pirate]

Hey Midden.... you trying to tell us something? Maybe we should keep an eye on you

 

[MiddenMonster]

Hey Midden.... you trying to tell us something? Maybe we should keep an eye on you

I wish. In reality, this thread has changed my whole perspective. Given the twists and turns of this thread, now I don't think I would bury cash for any longer than a year before I converted it. And the time it was buried would only be to keep it safe while I figured out the best way to proceed. Also, I don't think I would bury precious metals, jewels or artifacts, either. Every cache that is found means someone didn't make it back to enjoy their own wealth. It would suck to be one of those people. These days, whether you are awaiting the zombie apocalypse, civil war, revolution or any other kind of civil unrest it seems the things to be buried are guns, ammunition, food, medical supplies, etc.--the things you need to defend your property and family, and the things people will be coming after so they can do the same. I'm not a prepper, but those companies that specialize in selling dehydrated food that lasts for 20 years are looking more interesting all the time. There is no need to bury food now, but if any of the unrest comes around, the government will certainly crack down on hoarders so they can collect the food and medical stores to be rationed out at their discretion. Well, that and save the best stuff for themselves. In the meantime, I think real estate in the form of rural land would be the best place to put the proceeds of any lucky find that comes into your possession. I would only be confiscated if the powers that be had an immediate use for it, and it could be put to work for you in so many ways. Now if I can only find a steam powered generator for when the fuel supplies disappear...

 

[stoneshirt]

The Dutch Schultz stuff got me wondering on how someone could bury a cache of jewels, precious metals and paper money in such a way that it survives 200 - 300 years. Let's say that there is $1 million in cash (100 stacks of $10,000, all $100 bills), and another $4 million in jewels and precious metals. Of course, the jewels and precious metals would have no problem surviving, which means that the paper money is the critical part of the cache.

I don't think that it would as easy as it might seem at first glance. Depending on how you did it there would possibly be rust to deal with. But no matter how you did it there would be moisture of varying degrees, geological forces, erosion, crush stress, etc.

The way I came up with is as follows. First, I'd put the cash in 6" PVC pipe along with a good amount of those desiccant packs. Then I would use PVC glue to fasten end caps to the pipe. At this point the PVC pipe should stay intact and sealed for between 70 and 100 years if it were buried as is. I'd do the same with the jewels and precious metals, though I would probably leave the desiccants out for fear of a chemical reaction with the metals. Once the pipes were all sealed and in front of me I would wrap each of them tightly with a heavy mil garbage bag and use that serial killer's friend known as duct tape to seal the bags as well as possible. I probably wouldn't go with two plastic wraps because any water that got past the outside layer would migrate deeper and deeper into the inner bag. Finally I would put the sealed PVC piped into an iron box of the same gauge as sewer pipe. The method I would use is to put bearing grease several inches deep into the iron box, then continually pack more bearing grease around the PVC pips as I added them to the box. I originally thought of using a large, plastic ice chest, but because of crush stress and ground movement I figured it would break apart after as little as 20 years. I would then seal the lid shut with all weather silicone gel. At this point, the box is pretty much ready to go, but I'd finish it off by covering the entire iron box with a few layers of that Flex Seal liquid that you see in TV commercials. That would give me an iron box that is completely covered with about 3/8" of a rubber coating. I'd find a good spot and bury the chest 3' - 4' deep, and hopefully find a slab rock big enough to cover the top of the chest with a couple inches of overhang on all sides.

I figure the Flex Seal would last at least 2 decades before it began to degrade. 20 years. The cast iron chest should withstand the elements for as long as sewer pipe can last, with is another 80 - 100 years. So let's say we're at 90 years of protection. The bearing grease wouldn't begin to move until the box was sufficiently rusted, and it could only move at the speed of any holes in the iron. The bearing grease would also function as a displacement force against the water, and I figure that would take at least 50 years. 140 years. Once the PVC was exposed it should last another 70 - 100 years, provided it didn't degrade while it was protected. That's 240 years.

Any flaws in that method? What are your ideas on how to do it?

Tar is good.stoneshirt.

 

[stoneshirt]

The Dutch Schultz stuff got me wondering on how someone could bury a cache of jewels, precious metals and paper money in such a way that it survives 200 - 300 years. Let's say that there is $1 million in cash (100 stacks of $10,000, all $100 bills), and another $4 million in jewels and precious metals. Of course, the jewels and precious metals would have no problem surviving, which means that the paper money is the critical part of the cache.

I don't think that it would as easy as it might seem at first glance. Depending on how you did it there would possibly be rust to deal with. But no matter how you did it there would be moisture of varying degrees, geological forces, erosion, crush stress, etc.

The way I came up with is as follows. First, I'd put the cash in 6" PVC pipe along with a good amount of those desiccant packs. Then I would use PVC glue to fasten end caps to the pipe. At this point the PVC pipe should stay intact and sealed for between 70 and 100 years if it were buried as is. I'd do the same with the jewels and precious metals, though I would probably leave the desiccants out for fear of a chemical reaction with the metals. Once the pipes were all sealed and in front of me I would wrap each of them tightly with a heavy mil garbage bag and use that serial killer's friend known as duct tape to seal the bags as well as possible. I probably wouldn't go with two plastic wraps because any water that got past the outside layer would migrate deeper and deeper into the inner bag. Finally I would put the sealed PVC piped into an iron box of the same gauge as sewer pipe. The method I would use is to put bearing grease several inches deep into the iron box, then continually pack more bearing grease around the PVC pips as I added them to the box. I originally thought of using a large, plastic ice chest, but because of crush stress and ground movement I figured it would break apart after as little as 20 years. I would then seal the lid shut with all weather silicone gel. At this point, the box is pretty much ready to go, but I'd finish it off by covering the entire iron box with a few layers of that Flex Seal liquid that you see in TV commercials. That would give me an iron box that is completely covered with about 3/8" of a rubber coating. I'd find a good spot and bury the chest 3' - 4' deep, and hopefully find a slab rock big enough to cover the top of the chest with a couple inches of overhang on all sides.

I figure the Flex Seal would last at least 2 decades before it began to degrade. 20 years. The cast iron chest should withstand the elements for as long as sewer pipe can last, with is another 80 - 100 years. So let's say we're at 90 years of protection. The bearing grease wouldn't begin to move until the box was sufficiently rusted, and it could only move at the speed of any holes in the iron. The bearing grease would also function as a displacement force against the water, and I figure that would take at least 50 years. 140 years. Once the PVC was exposed it should last another 70 - 100 years, provided it didn't degrade while it was protected. That's 240 years.

Any flaws in that method? What are your ideas on how to do it?

Who you burying that for?.....I would use Tar.It's millions of Years old.