Anyone up for an intellectual exercise in cach burying?

[BillA]

some curious expressions
"hand-to-mouth" used to be a somewhat derogatory comment (at least in my WASP circles), now it is how most live

"just-in-time" is now standard business practice, which is "hand-to-mouth" one level up
and banks and governments the same

it is called bankruptcy

 

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[Squirrel322]

One suggestion would be to seal the cash in Mylar, not plastic. The best way to store dried grains and legumes for the long term is to heat-seal them in Mylar bags with oxygen absorbers. Done properly this will preserve the nutritional value of the food for 20 years and probably the physical appearance for much longer.

While paper money isn’t beans and rice, certainly some of the same principles in preservation remain true. The biggest threats to food storage deterioration are heat, moisture and oxygen. Unlike plastic, Mylar doesn’t breath. The oxygen absorbers eliminate the majority of oxygen from inside the sealed bags. As for the heat consideration, the ideal location for food storage is a cool place of constant temperature like your basement. I think burying your cashe deep enough to avoid drastic temperature fluctuations would be a pertinent consideration.

 

[BillA]

S322 sure, good methods - what is your time frame?
I ask because I have experienced currency changes, several times. Regimes change the currency for economic or political reasons, and a physical exchange is required. etc
The US has not changed their currency recently as they have been on a roll, but everything has a limit.
I would not bet on 50 years. (if you live there you must)

 

[Mackaydon]

Excellent info Crow.
I only wish I had those challenges.
Don....

 

[Squirrel322]

S322 sure, good methods - what is your time frame?
I ask because I have experienced currency changes, several times. Regimes change the currency for economic or political reasons, and a physical exchange is required. etc
The US has not changed their currency recently as they have been on a roll, but everything has a limit.
I would not bet on 50 years. (if you live there you must)

Well, I was only making suggestions to a hypothetical intellectual exercise. I probably wouldn’t bury paper money myself, precious metals might be a better avenue. However, let’s say someone obtained a couple million dollars cash and was faced with burying it out of necessity.... The time frame might be constrained most by the lifespan of the individual rather than the preservation of the currency or the possibility of it becoming obsolete from circulation. No one is going to return a hundred year later to dig up the loot they buried. If you can bury the cash in a way that preserves it for a couple decades you are probably in the time frame suited to the necessity.

 

[Mackaydon]

If you stash $1,000 cash for 24 or 18 or 14 years, your cash will be worth about $500 if the inflation rate is 3, 4, or 5%, respectively.
Don.....

 

[Gold Maven]

I read a book about a drug smuggler, he said he put the bills in pvc tubes, coated the tubes in fiberglass, and then buried them in his Mother's back yard, and planted a shrub over the cache site.

he said by the time he was arrested, his Mother's back yard looked like a jungle.

of course he added, that they had all been dug up.

I wonder.......

 

[MiddenMonster]

Hypothetically if you converted your gold assets into money?

Having large amounts of cash is not illegal, but it can easily lead to trouble. Law enforcement officers can seize the cash and try to keep it by filing a forfeiture action, claiming that the cash is proceeds of illegal activity. And criminal charges for the federal crime of “structuring” are becoming more common.


If you deposit or withdraw cash in excess of $10,000, your bank must fill out a currency transaction report (CTR) on a Department of the Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) Form 104. The person making the deposit or withdraw must provide identification to the bank, and the bank must report details of the transaction as well as the name, address, social security number, and birthdate of the person making the deposit or withdrawal.

And this is becoming more complicated every day with the use of algorithms, machine learning and artificial intelligence. Even now patterns can be recognized, and the sensitivity set to flag any significant change in those patterns. In the Dutch Schultz thread I said that I thought I could infiltrate $10 million in modern money into my life without much problem. But even that may be difficult or impossible in the very near future. All computers have to do is compare known income with known expenditures (credit cards, debit cards, online shopping, etc.) and use some predictive algorithm to guess how much cash was used that couldn't be tracked. So chances are you will be caught if you bought a Mercedes when before you only purchased vehicles from Ford or Chevy. You may find a $10 million cache, but good luck enjoying it. These days you are probably going to need some vehicle to launder it into your life, i.e. a business that deals primarily in cash, such as a dive bar where people don't pay their tab with credit or debit cards. And all of a sudden you find yourself actually working. The horror...the horror. You can't fake a lottery win. You might be able to find a rich person to split the money with under the guise of "selling" them an great idea. But that just puts the weight on them when those same algorithms and tech toys come into play. And when that happens you'll get ratted out by the rich person who doesn't want to take the fall. Even if you live the simple life for the rest of your life you might be caught when the technology says that something is amiss because you aren't spending enough of your known income to survive, so you must be spending undeclared cash. So we may be near the point where it's almost impossible to pull it off, and the only viable solution is to tell the feds you found a stash of cash and hope they let you keep a reasonable amount of it after it is taxed. Fake ID's are in the same boat now. Before the digital age you could establish a fake identity fairly easily, and as long as you didn't break the law and stayed off the radar you could live both your lives without getting caught. But now, with biometrics--facial recognition, etc those days are gone. In Texas there was a woman in her 80's who got caught using her dead sister's ID to collect her Social Security checks and to vote in her name. She was caught because the state of Texas compared all he drivers license pictures in the database with each other and her picture kicked back because it was on her drivers license and her dead sister's drivers license. Like the guy said on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation, "Forensics be jammin' a brother up."

 

[BillA]

ahem, or you could move

 

[Madmox]

Hypothetically if you converted your gold assets into money?

Having large amounts of cash is not illegal, but it can easily lead to trouble. Law enforcement officers can seize the cash and try to keep it by filing a forfeiture action, claiming that the cash is proceeds of illegal activity. And criminal charges for the federal crime of “structuring” are becoming more common.


If you deposit or withdraw cash in excess of $10,000, your bank must fill out a currency transaction report (CTR) on a Department of the Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) Form 104. The person making the deposit or withdraw must provide identification to the bank, and the bank must report details of the transaction as well as the name, address, social security number, and birthdate of the person making the deposit or withdrawal.

Multiple deposits made in one day must be added together and will trigger the reporting requirement if, combined, they exceed $10,000.


Bankers are also required to file suspicious transaction reports (STRs). Withdrawing or depositing amounts just under $10,000 often does not succeed in avoiding reports to the government, because STR’s have no dollar limit. A person who withdraws $8,000 three times in a week may trigger the filing of an STR, and that person will not be notified that the STR was filed.

Banks are also directed to perform account audits to look for suspicious activity. If the banking activity is not consistent with the “customer’s profile,” banks are directed to file a suspicious activity report (SAR).


Reporting requirements are not limited to banks. Business are also required to report cash transactions over $10,000. Any business (including a sole proprietorship) that receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or in related transactions must file an IRS Form 8300.

If a business or individual fails to file a Form 8300 when required, the business or individual can be fined. The penalty for intentionally disregarding the filing requirement is the greater of $25,000 or the amount of cash received in the transaction not to exceed $100,000.


For any number of reasons, and often not related to illegal activity, people do not like to trigger CTRs for their banking activity. To avoid this, they will make a series of smaller deposits or withdrawals. Doing so constitutes the federal crime of “structuring.” Federal law prohibits anyone from causing or attempting to cause a financial institution or business to fail to file a report.

A conviction for structuring, a federal felony, is punished by a sentence of up to five years in prison. The penalty can increase to ten years’ imprisonment if the conviction relates to a pattern of illegal activity involving more than $100,000 in a 12-month period.


There are perfectly legitimate reasons to regularly deposit or withdraw amounts just under $10,000, but police and prosecutors often assume that it is being done to avoid CTR’s. If you are regularly depositing or withdrawing amounts in the thousands of dollars, but under $10,000, you should be proactive and document the reason with a written explanation to your bank.

For example, if you own a business that regularly receives cash and your employees deposit receipts daily for the purpose of limiting the amount of cash on the premises, you should create a written policy for your employees, make sure it is followed, and provide a copy to your bank.

The trouble is for average person navigating though various rules and regulations seems daunting... But amigos there are loopholes.

Crow

Just to add to that. Despite that 10,000 is the legal threshold. Banks will file the CTR if you are anywhere near 10k or if the cash transaction is outside of an amount that normally passes through your account. So $9,900 will generally still trigger it also.

 

[Nitric]

I was casual friends with an investment banker/advisor who bought a bunch of small gold bars for a good discount off spot, for cash. A number of years later he went to sell and found the lack of a purchase receipt was a very big problem, moreover his cost basis was zero. As a starched guy he did not wish involvement. He sold at a small profit, but a huge discount as he was in no way going to provide a sales receipt.

not so many swim in different waters, the effing sharks come in different guises
read Crow's story about Mr. X, the good guy

I've never had this problem and probably never will. I think with gold and silver it could be done. I don't think it could be done over night, and I don't think you could change life style much or put it into the bank. But just the mental security of knowing that you had it would be huge!!! At least for me. I watched a guy get all wrapped up from trying to convert metal to paper. I never understood why? His Dad had saved it for years and only sold a little here and there when he needed it. But the Son wanted it all cashed out NOW!! He did a lot of really dumb things too trying to win that game. False rental income, fudging paper to make his business look like it was doing better than it was etc..... He wanted the "look" of money. He failed hard! So, I've always wondered "what would I do in that position?" Just as a hypothetical thing to talk about. I wouldn't change life style, I'd eat well though!!! And I'd much rather have the metal for the whole comfort thing of knowing I had it. And just sell a little at a time. With gold and silver there are no shortage of buyers in smaller amounts. There are people avoiding paper for other reasons too. Privacy. They don't want people to know they have it. I only dream of this problem or challenge!

 

[MiddenMonster]

I've never had this problem and probably never will. I think with gold and silver it could be done. I don't think it could be done over night, and I don't think you could change life style much or put it into the bank. But just the mental security of knowing that you had it would be huge!!!

The question that comes to mind is how much could you convert to usable currency and at what rate without drawing attention to yourself? If you make $100K/year or more you could probably do it without being noticed than if you only made $30K/year. What's the point of it if your lifestyle can't/doesn't change at all? I also agree that there would be security in knowing that you had it, but wouldn't there also be worry in knowing that you had it? Having it also means securing it, which presents its own complications. Just working from rough numbers, $10 million is gold would weigh what? 500+ lbs? Depending on the size of each bar that could be a cumbersome bit of logistics. You sure wouldn't want gold bars that weighed a hundred pounds, or even several pounds each. I would think ideally you would want 1 oz. or 1/2 oz bars, which would number in the thousands. Coins might be easier to liquidate, but the coin collector/buyer industry is a fairly small group of people. With several thousands of gold coins you would need to convert I think you would quickly become well known, and probably an object of discussion among the cool kids in that clique.

 

[Nitric]

The question that comes to mind is how much could you convert to usable currency and at what rate without drawing attention to yourself? If you make $100K/year or more you could probably do it without being noticed than if you only made $30K/year. What's the point of it if your lifestyle can't/doesn't change at all? I also agree that there would be security in knowing that you had it, but wouldn't there also be worry in knowing that you had it? Having it also means securing it, which presents its own complications. Just working from rough numbers, $10 million is gold would weigh what? 500+ lbs? Depending on the size of each bar that could be a cumbersome bit of logistics. You sure wouldn't want gold bars that weighed a hundred pounds, or even several pounds each. I would think ideally you would want 1 oz. or 1/2 oz bars, which would number in the thousands. Coins might be easier to liquidate, but the coin collector/buyer industry is a fairly small group of people. With several thousands of gold coins you would need to convert I think you would quickly become well known, and probably an object of discussion among the cool kids in that clique.

I see what your saying. Here's a question too....How much do you need to be comfortable? Someone like me doesn't need much. Sure, there are tons of things that I'd like to have. I live in a project house that is over 100 years old,Wear worn out outdated clothes, I drive a 1998 truck that is multi colored and also a project. I like working on things and playing with "junk" or projects. I have friends of all classes and can get in and joy ride a friends Lambo if I want, but..... It's just not me. Doesn't fit me. I could eat well!! And also work it in slowly. I bet I didn't make 40k this year, I haven't actually paid attention to a pay stub. So, no, I couldn't go on a spending spree. I could still have a lot of fun with that cash!! and give me time to work out details. It couldn't be done super fast. And.. to be honest? It may work out better to pay the tax on some of it!! I think that could be done easier while making it appear without saying where it came from or exposing the full amount until transferred to cash. You wouldn't be the "cool kid" if you went to guys that are use to dealing with those numbers and bigger. No, usually not the local pawn or coin shop.

We had a conversation at work kind of along the same lines. How much would you need to be comfortable and not worry. With the guys around on the job, the number ranged from 500k to 9 mil. Funny listening to how people would spend it. You could buy all kinds of things and not really be noticed. Just couldn't be flashy...

I had another paragraph in there and lost it or hit the wrong button. I was saying that coins would be real easy,if a little below spot. I was lucky enough to be able to hold and look at about $250k in gold coins from one collection(and I know there are guys that see that and more often). without doing math...a real quick off the wall guess 7 tubes of 20 in todays prices, maybe fewer coins than that.. That's not all that many. Less than a shoebox full of tubes per million. I'm sure my numbers are off but you get the idea. Bars would be a little tougher and take the right amount of time.


And hope no one gets upset about this...Just complete fantasy and I wouldn't promote anything illegal. Just talking nonsense for fun and to keep the brain occupied at the moment. I like projects and puzzles. And to be honest? Who knows what I'd really do in that position. I'd probably chicken out and go the legal route, something fun to talk about. "what if I found 10 million!!". Heck, I'd be happy to find 10k! hahaha

 

[MiddenMonster]

I see what your saying. Here's a question too....How much do you need to be comfortable?...We had a conversation at work kind of along the same lines. How much would you need to be comfortable and not worry. With the guys around on the job, the number ranged from 500k to 9 mil. Funny listening to how people would spend it. You could buy all kinds of things and not really be noticed. Just couldn't be flashy...

Having enough to be comfortable is one thing. Having enough to pursue your hopes, dreams and ambitions is another. I'm comfortable now. I always have enough to eat. I have a solid roof over my head and don't really lack for any thing material. But I would like to have enough to travel more, build a wood shop, an audio and video studio, etc.

As for how much that would take, the general rule of thumb is you want enough wealth so that a 5% yearly return meets your requirements. So 20 times that number. For me, $5 million returning 5% ($250K) would be more than adequate. I could bank 2.5%-3% and roll the other half or so back into the investment so that the return is more and more each year. With that I could probably spend most of what I net for the first few years, but after that more and more would end up in savings or reinvested. Of course, if I wanted to try my hand at real estate that would change. I think it would be awesome to own 10,000 acres of wilderness made up of mountains, forest and flat lands.

Ideally, if I found a big cache I would want to pay the initial taxes and have the full remainder at my disposal. But given the government's appetite for seizure and their insatiable lust for tax revenue I think they would be more like buzzards picking a carcass clean and I would seriously think about alternate ways to preserve that cache. Based on the responses to this thread I think one would be wise to stash a large amount of cash in sealed bags and keep it in a gun safe that is bolted to the floor, or even located in a hidden room. Burying cash for any length of time seems like a one toke over the line kind of thing. Precious metals and jewels are another ball of wax. It might be wise to bury them if there were valid concerns that others were actively looking for them, your safety was in direct jeopardy or the revenuers were going to raid your house. But without any of those concerns, it's probably just as wise to put them in the same gun safe. As shown in this thread, the big problem is not the hiding, but the unhiding--getting the cache into a position where it can serve your interests without legal liability or risk to your safety. These days that's tough, and getting tougher every day. If you found Dutch Shultz's cache a few years after he buried it you could live like a king and not put much worry into drawing too much attention to yourself. You could buy property in another state, move there as a well off person and life goes on. These days that's not going to happen.

 

[Nitric]

And like mentioned above "Asset forfeiture(?)" is real. I know of an 80 something year old man that lost everything from a stupid business mistake and not keeping up with the laws. His Grand kids will be battling it in court. So..You don't just risk what you may find, you risk it all!! He has to prove where everything he owns came from, Gun collections, watch collections, coin collections, etc.... You can't prove 60 years of some collections and where every piece came from . it's impossible. He may have been better off burying gold,silver, or cash! Then he wouldn't have lost it all even when 99% of it was obtained legally. I say 99% because it's almost impossible to keep up with laws sometimes depending on what you are doing.

 

[Crow]

And like mentioned above "Asset forfeiture(?)" is real. I know of an 80 something year old man that lost everything from a stupid business mistake and not keeping up with the laws. His Grand kids will be battling it in court. So..You don't just risk what you may find, you risk it all!! He has to prove where everything he owns came from, Gun collections, watch collections, coin collections, etc.... You can't prove 60 years of some collections and where every piece came from . it's impossible. He may have been better off burying gold,silver, or cash! Then he wouldn't have lost it all even when 99% of it was obtained legally. I say 99% because it's almost impossible to keep up with laws sometimes depending on what you are doing.

There are no bigger thieves than governments amigo. That is why the trio have diverse interests in many projects scattered all over the globe. ( remember the old saying never keep all ya eggs in one basket?)

I have a yarn to tell you. About a very successful treasure hunter that was screwed over by successive governments.

Captain Michel Hatcher is the explorer and marine salvage expert who made arguably the two greatest shipwreck cargo discoveries of Chinese porcelain and other wares in the South China Sea: the Nanking cargo of the early 1980s and the Tek Sing cargo of more than 360,000 pieces in 1999.




Born in Yorkshire in 1940, Hatcher was a Barnado’s boy from the age of two to 15 years old. He was taken to Australia at the age of 13 where he discovered a passion for the sea after being introduced to sailing in his late teens.In his early twenties he decided to leave a career in farming to become an engineer, and by 1981 he had started his own salvage company which enjoyed success with the discovery of the Nanking treasure in 1987 and the Tek Sing cargo in May 1999.



A number of controversies surround the salvaging of historic wreck cargo undertaken by Michael Hatcher. The salvaging of both the Tek Sing and the Geldermalsen have been heavily criticized by archaeologists for stripping archaeological sites of valuable artefacts without recording any context and destroying the less economically valuable parts of the assemblage, such as the ships themselves. Because of his success in recovering treasure he became a target of envious academia.



However at the time he had an signed a legal business agreement with the then powers to be in Indonesia. However the Indonesians got smart although he shared the treasure recovered with the old Indonesian government. And technically his share was his. He could not legally move the artifacts out of Indonesia set by new legislation by the new Indonesian government. So in effect he was left with treasure and no buyers with in Indonesia.

However he was forced to secretly remove his share of treasure under the fear the new Indonesian government was drafting news laws to protect underwater heritage and use that new legislation back dated, to take his share from the original agreement.. During this transition period he was prevented in taking anymore artifacts out of the country. Whats was already out the country was being sold raising many millions of dollars at Christies and various other auction houses.

Then came along the Australian government eager to sign a trade deal with Indonesia who lobbied as part of the deal in the trade agreement, was to return cultural artifacts that under an international Agreement Australia was assignee of. Since Michel Hatcher was an Australian citizen living on the gold coast.

So was raided by Australian Authorities.

Seven containers of the Tek Sing cargo were seized by Australian authorities pursuant to their Protection of Movable Cultural Heritage Act 1986 as the New Indonesian government had confirmed that they had been illegally exported from its territory.This confirmation came too late for much of the cargo however, and it was able to continue its journey and be sold at auction in the EU. On 12 September 2001, the 71 939 seized ceramics were returned by Australia to Indonesia.

So regardless of the legal agreement Hatcher had with old government of Indonesia, to the new Indonesia government in power it was worthless, as they deemed it a deal of the old government and not theirs. His own Australian government who wanted a trade deal was eager to enforce Protection of Movable Cultural Heritage Act 1986 to appease the new Indonesian government to get a trade deal.

So technically we have a Country selling out its own citizen who had a legal agreement and entitlement to treasure recovered from his services.Because of other vested interests.

This is not uncommon amigos.

That is why you have to be 3 steps ahead of the game.

Crow

 

[Crow]

So amigos careful what ya wish for because once the genie is out of bottle it hard to go back.

And things might not turn out as one would hope. So it's better to ride the bus not get thrown under it.

Crow

 

[Madmox]

So amigos careful what ya wish for because once the genie is out of bottle it hard to go back.

And things might not turn out as one would hope. So it's better to ride the bus not get thrown under it.

Crow

So the moral of the story is... if you are after big treasure, step one... have a plan to get your out of the country first thing.

 

[BillA]

Australia is merely another hooker, look at their citizen held in the UK for that other........

 

[Crow]

So the moral of the story is... if you are after big treasure, step one... have a plan to get your out of the country first thing.

Gidday Madmox

Alas if only it was so? That is only one part as there is many and steps each one can trip you up amigo.

Crow