Anyone up for an intellectual exercise in cach burying?

[MiddenMonster]

The Dutch Schultz stuff got me wondering on how someone could bury a cache of jewels, precious metals and paper money in such a way that it survives 200 - 300 years. Let's say that there is $1 million in cash (100 stacks of $10,000, all $100 bills), and another $4 million in jewels and precious metals. Of course, the jewels and precious metals would have no problem surviving, which means that the paper money is the critical part of the cache.

I don't think that it would as easy as it might seem at first glance. Depending on how you did it there would possibly be rust to deal with. But no matter how you did it there would be moisture of varying degrees, geological forces, erosion, crush stress, etc.

The way I came up with is as follows. First, I'd put the cash in 6" PVC pipe along with a good amount of those desiccant packs. Then I would use PVC glue to fasten end caps to the pipe. At this point the PVC pipe should stay intact and sealed for between 70 and 100 years if it were buried as is. I'd do the same with the jewels and precious metals, though I would probably leave the desiccants out for fear of a chemical reaction with the metals. Once the pipes were all sealed and in front of me I would wrap each of them tightly with a heavy mil garbage bag and use that serial killer's friend known as duct tape to seal the bags as well as possible. I probably wouldn't go with two plastic wraps because any water that got past the outside layer would migrate deeper and deeper into the inner bag. Finally I would put the sealed PVC piped into an iron box of the same gauge as sewer pipe. The method I would use is to put bearing grease several inches deep into the iron box, then continually pack more bearing grease around the PVC pips as I added them to the box. I originally thought of using a large, plastic ice chest, but because of crush stress and ground movement I figured it would break apart after as little as 20 years. I would then seal the lid shut with all weather silicone gel. At this point, the box is pretty much ready to go, but I'd finish it off by covering the entire iron box with a few layers of that Flex Seal liquid that you see in TV commercials. That would give me an iron box that is completely covered with about 3/8" of a rubber coating. I'd find a good spot and bury the chest 3' - 4' deep, and hopefully find a slab rock big enough to cover the top of the chest with a couple inches of overhang on all sides.

I figure the Flex Seal would last at least 2 decades before it began to degrade. 20 years. The cast iron chest should withstand the elements for as long as sewer pipe can last, with is another 80 - 100 years. So let's say we're at 90 years of protection. The bearing grease wouldn't begin to move until the box was sufficiently rusted, and it could only move at the speed of any holes in the iron. The bearing grease would also function as a displacement force against the water, and I figure that would take at least 50 years. 140 years. Once the PVC was exposed it should last another 70 - 100 years, provided it didn't degrade while it was protected. That's 240 years.

Any flaws in that method? What are your ideas on how to do it?

 

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[Crow]

Gidday Middenmonster

Interesting question. I have often wondered myself?

I definitely agree it would not be easy to bury paper money. Because such burying of paper money would only ever be a short term resolution. As the risk of deterioration is high even with the best precautions. Another factor is paper money can become obsolete. So the value of the currency may fall from its market value. Damaged paper bill do not have much value.

Here is case in question of old paper money buried in plastic container with plastic and paper wrapping in the early 1990s in Australia found recently. By 1998 all Australian banknotes were issued in plastic and Australia became the first country in the world to convert from a paper-based banknote currency to a polymer-based one. Thus paper money became obsolete.








As you can see a plastic container wrapped in plastic to make it extra water tight. Plastic wrapped around the money inside the container. Yet moisture within the container allowed humidity and paper decaying mold to form.

Yet you can see the deterioration after only 30 years.

Your method seems good but I would add I would place the money in sealed plastic bags and vacuum seal them thus removing any potential moisture air within the final plastic wrapping of the money.

Crow

 

[Nitric]

I know you wanted thought in this...I don't have much of that...But my very first thought. Convert the paper to gold and silver. I'd be worried the cash would become worthless. I doubt gold and silver will become worthless. I also wonder.....If burying cash in a place where temp is fairly consistent would help.

 

[Crow]

Pablo Escobar buried American currency drug money was better preserved. Because the cash was in bunches in plastic bags in seal-able water tight plastic drum. Both caches was buried for a similar time frame.



Each caches give a valuable lesson on what to do and what not to do. In any exercise in planing to bury paper currency.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Looking at known case studies gives you some references in what works and what does not?

The case of buried money in South Africa proceeds from an armed car heist.



The money was buried in A trunk wrapped in black plastic garbage bags. Yet the time actually in the ground was not long even so you can see the process of deterioration.



Crow

 

[Crow]

In the following case amigos.

Money ( US DOLLARS) was hidden hurriedly in an extreme circumstances during a Nigerian graft investigation in a grave . The corrupt official had hide money quickly with little preparation or thought into hiding the paper money. As you can see below. In that situation the money would deteriorate very quickly if moisture had entered the grave.



Crow

 

[Crow]

Here is paper money recovered from armored car heist in United States 1 million in money buried in a blue Tupperware containers.





That money was buried a little of over or near a year at least buried in that container.

Each one of these money caches lessons can be learned from them amigos.

Crow

 

[Crow]

And finally there is money hidden in England paper currency in 1940. Fear of Germans invading led to this cache being created. The money was found in dry dirt ground under the floorboards of dry cleaners.....Ha ha gotta be a joke there some where.

That was 80 years ago.....





So as a rule of thumb the longer paper is in the ground if not correctly wraped and preserved can deteriorate over time.

Crow

 

[BillA]

Hi Crow, the lesson is more than obvious: Paper is Not a Store of Value

I had to laugh at the British Bank notes, man - spend 'em while you got' em

edit: one's descendent upon encountering a schd 80 PVC tube with crumbling old bills, thinks
"I wish he would have bought the land next door."

 

[BillA]

And finally there is money hidden in England paper currency in 1940. Fear of Germans invading let to this cache. The money was found in dry dirt ground under the floorboards of dry cleaners.....Ha ha gotta be a joke there some where.

That was 80 years ago.....

View attachment 1881863

View attachment 1881864

So as a rule of thumb the longer paper is in the ground if not correctly wraped and preserved can deteriorate over time.

Crow

the bills were there to be died to look like Marks

 

[Crow]

Money is a medium of exchange; it allows people to obtain what they need to live. Bartering was one way that people exchanged goods for other goods before money was created. ...

The four most relevant types of money are commodity money, fiat money, fiduciary money, and commercial bank money. Commodity money relies on intrinsically valuable commodities that act as a medium of exchange. Fiat money, on the other hand, gets its value from a government order.Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity but by the stability of the issuing government.

For me the biggest flaw in burying or hiding paper money is for long period time is the value of the more succumbing to inflation or hyper inflation. So to bury paper money for 300 years or so would be no guarantee what you buried would be worth anything. That is danger of paper money.

A classic example is Germany after WW1 when a million Marks was needed to buy a loaf of bread.

Or even today In late March 2019, a photograph supposedly showing piles of “worthless” currency thrown into gutters in Venezuela



Hyperinflation is disorienting. Five or six years ago, 500 bolivars would’ve bought you a meal for two with wine at the best restaurant in Caracas. As late as early last year, they would’ve bought you at least a cup of coffee. At the end of 2016, they still bought you a cup of café con leche, at least. Today, they buy you essentially nothing.

That is why gold and silver has always been a universal safe haven.

So the need for long term hoarding over 20 -30 years is not worth the risk. Hiding of paper money is more a short term affair as you can see there are ways to preserve paper money. But it does not need to be over complex either.

Crow

 

[MiddenMonster]

I definitely agree it would not be easy to bury paper money. Because such burying of paper money would only ever be a short term resolution. As the risk of deterioration is high even with the best precautions. Another factor is paper money can become obsolete. So the value of the currency may fall from its market value. Damaged paper bill do not have much value.

Here is case in question of old paper money buried in plastic container with plastic and paper wrapping in the early 1990s in Australia found recently. By 1998 all Australian banknotes were issued in plastic and Australia became the first country in the world to convert from a paper-based banknote currency to a polymer-based one. Thus paper money became obsolete.

I agree, but if the hypothetical cache only contains gold and silver bars or diamonds it could be buried for millions of years without much problem. There would also be no need for someone to bury paper money for hundreds of years because they would be dead. Let's face it, if someone's cache is buried for longer than an average jail term something went wrong with their plan. I'm not going to bury millions of dollars in my twenties with the expectation that I'll dig it up in my 60's and enjoy my retirement. But those pictures you posted are very interesting and illuminating. It looks like even if the money remained dry there was significant deterioration. That might be due to even low moisture levels, or even chemical reactions of the accumulated chemicals on the money or the material it was buried with. So it seems that if someone wanted to bury paper money (or paper anything of value) for extended periods of time the paper would have to be sterilized and immediately sealed to protect it from both water and air. Based on the way ancient writings are kept it would still probably be a process of periodic attention to make sure deterioration is thwarted. So it definitely looks like precious metals and jewels would be the only logical way to go when burying a cache for a long period. But that raised another question: How hard would it be to convert $5 million in precious metal and jewels into modern cash as needed? You could do it slowly to avoid the eyes of Big Brother, but how many times could you convert a couple thousand dollars of gold into cash without the buy getting suspicious? $2,000 per transaction totals 2500 transactions. Even if it took 10 years that's 250 transactions per year. You could almost find yourself traveling around the country with the sole task of cashing in your gold.

 

[BillA]

I was casual friends with an investment banker/advisor who bought a bunch of small gold bars for a good discount off spot, for cash. A number of years later he went to sell and found the lack of a purchase receipt was a very big problem, moreover his cost basis was zero. As a starched guy he did not wish involvement. He sold at a small profit, but a huge discount as he was in no way going to provide a sales receipt.

not so many swim in different waters, the effing sharks come in different guises
read Crow's story about Mr. X, the good guy

 

[Crow]

There are always ways and means amigo.

But some things cannot be discussed openly in such forums without leaving one open to accusations of incrimination.

Regardless "hypothetically" such liquidation of such assets into liquid assets will always cost money.

Nothing is for free.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Hypothetically if you converted your gold assets into money?

Having large amounts of cash is not illegal, but it can easily lead to trouble. Law enforcement officers can seize the cash and try to keep it by filing a forfeiture action, claiming that the cash is proceeds of illegal activity. And criminal charges for the federal crime of “structuring” are becoming more common.


If you deposit or withdraw cash in excess of $10,000, your bank must fill out a currency transaction report (CTR) on a Department of the Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) Form 104. The person making the deposit or withdraw must provide identification to the bank, and the bank must report details of the transaction as well as the name, address, social security number, and birthdate of the person making the deposit or withdrawal.

Multiple deposits made in one day must be added together and will trigger the reporting requirement if, combined, they exceed $10,000.


Bankers are also required to file suspicious transaction reports (STRs). Withdrawing or depositing amounts just under $10,000 often does not succeed in avoiding reports to the government, because STR’s have no dollar limit. A person who withdraws $8,000 three times in a week may trigger the filing of an STR, and that person will not be notified that the STR was filed.

Banks are also directed to perform account audits to look for suspicious activity. If the banking activity is not consistent with the “customer’s profile,” banks are directed to file a suspicious activity report (SAR).


Reporting requirements are not limited to banks. Business are also required to report cash transactions over $10,000. Any business (including a sole proprietorship) that receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or in related transactions must file an IRS Form 8300.

If a business or individual fails to file a Form 8300 when required, the business or individual can be fined. The penalty for intentionally disregarding the filing requirement is the greater of $25,000 or the amount of cash received in the transaction not to exceed $100,000.


For any number of reasons, and often not related to illegal activity, people do not like to trigger CTRs for their banking activity. To avoid this, they will make a series of smaller deposits or withdrawals. Doing so constitutes the federal crime of “structuring.” Federal law prohibits anyone from causing or attempting to cause a financial institution or business to fail to file a report.

A conviction for structuring, a federal felony, is punished by a sentence of up to five years in prison. The penalty can increase to ten years’ imprisonment if the conviction relates to a pattern of illegal activity involving more than $100,000 in a 12-month period.


There are perfectly legitimate reasons to regularly deposit or withdraw amounts just under $10,000, but police and prosecutors often assume that it is being done to avoid CTR’s. If you are regularly depositing or withdrawing amounts in the thousands of dollars, but under $10,000, you should be proactive and document the reason with a written explanation to your bank.

For example, if you own a business that regularly receives cash and your employees deposit receipts daily for the purpose of limiting the amount of cash on the premises, you should create a written policy for your employees, make sure it is followed, and provide a copy to your bank.

The trouble is for average person navigating though various rules and regulations seems daunting... But amigos there are loopholes.

Crow

 

[BillA]

I hear you Crow, been there done that
but somewhat removed from THing, cost of doing business
but as you observe No Free Food

 

[Crow]

In the developed Western world the compliance cost of doing business is crippling small businesses. Why because of a political system that allows private donations to political parties that has created a whole industry of lobbyists.

For example a large industry player that is gaining market dominance ( monopoly ) of industry is faced with small players competitors that are restricting the big players growth of market share. They have the capital the small players have not influence lobbyist to push for more compliance laws, in which they have resources to comply with knowing full well smaller competitors would have cost issues in complying to new some times silly introduced compliance laws. Forcing to small business with small profit margins to close or either merge with other companies just to comply with obligations. Political influence is through per pressure by proxy via lobbyists.

That was one of reasons what killed mom and pop America. But not just in America all over the western world.

Crow

 

[BillA]

and another infuriating aspect of capitalism is the purchase of competitors,
which they then let die - the purchaser absorbing their market share
but the small business owners are more than willing to sell at a somewhat inflated price

all are complicit

edit: nothing to get upset about, just the way the system is designed to work
WE are an alternate route

 

[Crow]

There is reason why the "black economy" is must like bigger than the official one. For example you your just and ordinary tradesman carpenter proprietor and most of your time is spent meeting compliance ( Red Tape) then it is not time you are spent earning money?

And there must be millions of contractors trapped in endless cycle of red tape preventing them from growing or even making a living to exist. So its easy to see "Odd jobs cash in the hand" becomes black money.

So in effect it easy to see such hidden cash is not always drug money or stolen money. But people trying earn extra money to survive.

In a survey The Fed asked respondents how they would pay for a $400 emergency. The answer: 47 percent of respondents said that either they would cover the expense by borrowing or selling something, or they would not be able to come up with the $400 at all. Four hundred dollars! Who knew?

The evidence strongly indicates that either a sizable minority or a slim majority of Americans are on thin ice financially. ( i should note not just Americans ) How thin? A 2014 Bankrate survey, echoing the Fed’s data, found that only 38 percent of Americans would cover a $1,000 emergency-room visit or $500 car repair with money they’d saved.

Two reports published last year by the Pew Charitable Trusts found, respectively, that 55 percent of households didn’t have enough liquid savings to replace a month’s worth of lost income, and that of the 56 percent of people who said they’d worried about their finances in the previous year, 71 percent were concerned about having enough money to cover everyday expenses.

A similar study conducted by Annamaria Lusardi of George Washington University, Peter Tufano of Oxford, and Daniel Schneider, then of Princeton, asked individuals whether they could “come up with” $2,000 within 30 days for an unanticipated expense?

They found that slightly more than one-quarter could not, and another 19 percent could do so only if they pawned possessions or took out payday loans. The conclusion:

Nearly half of American adults are “financially fragile” and “living very close to the financial edge.” Yet another analysis, this one led by Jacob Hacker of Yale, measured the number of households that had lost a quarter or more of their “available income” in a given year—income minus medical expenses and interest on debt—and found that in each year from 2001 to 2012, at least one in five had suffered such a loss and couldn’t compensate by digging into savings.

The irony is the black economy is propping up economies all around the world.

So the growth of hidden money caches even with alternatives is growing. However money caches as we know is fragile and most paper money caches are most likely hidden inside building cupboards secret draws or cavities. And due to unforeseen circumstances lost or forgotten.

Crow

 

[Crow]

and another infuriating aspect of capitalism is the purchase of competitors,
which they then let die - the purchaser absorbing their market share
but the small business owners are more than willing to sell at a somewhat inflated price

all are complicit

edit: nothing to get upset about, just the way the system is designed to work
WE are an alternate route

Well its law of fish pond amigo big fish eat little fish and it eat or be eaten.

I had a company that was small regional player. Did well for a while until two much bigger players moved in they both undercut me by operating in my region at a loss and I was not big enough to compete against them at a national level. I learned some great lessons from it.

Crow