Anyone know if caches sink, also, what depth?

[gunslinger44]

It's really two questions:

1) What is the depth range that actual coin caches were commonly buried?

2) would a jar of silver or gold sink very deep over say a 50 year period?

Area is eastern mountains.

 

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[SD51]

Here's my two cents...

I can't speak to "What is the depth range that actual coin caches were commonly buried?"

I would believe a jar or Silver or Gold would not sink much versus a single coin. In 1998, I was told by a neighbor of my In-Laws that in 1960, his youngest boy threw his older brother's Silver Dollar across the road. I asked if I could look for it and he agreed. In minutes, I recovered it and after 38 years, it was down just 6 inches. The soil was rich black dirt. The soil is also a factor.

 

[ironhorse]

I have never heard of any plausible scenario that would give me reason to believe that anything 'sinks' in soil.
Personally, I feel soil cover is built up over years and depth of objects in undisturbed soil is relative to the ground cover and how it lives and dies.

 

[gunsil]

Most caches are not buried more than the depth you can reach down with your hand to retrieve it without difficulty, usually no more than two feet down, usually less than that. They do not sink at all. Single coins don't sink either, the ground builds up over them. I have found plenty of colonial era coins at only 3-6" if the soil has not been disturbed by landscaping or silting in from flooding. The ground builds up faster in the woods due to leaf matter. If you are serious about cache hunting get a copy of Karl Von Mueller's "Treasure Hunters Manual #6 or #7, #7 may be better. These are long out of print and a bit costly when you find one, but they are the "bible" of cache hunting even though they were written over fifty years ago.

 

[GoDeep]

I have never heard of any plausible scenario that would give me reason to believe that anything 'sinks' in soil.
Personally, I feel soil cover is built up over years and depth of objects in undisturbed soil is relative to the ground cover and how it lives and dies.

Absolutely items sink in dirt. Especially in northern climates with rich soil. The freezing and thawing cycles, combined with earth worms, and vegetation expanding the earth with it's roots and then dying and decaying, cause items sink relatively fast into the earth. Here in Minnesota, once they hit clay or gravel, thats where they usually stop sinking.

I'll try to find it, but i watched a video not too long ago where they put an item in a tub of dirt with worms in it and put a timelapse camera on it, you could literally watch it sink on the timelapse. Sure, things can also get covered up through leave deposits, wind blown dirt etc, but sinking is a very real, observable phenomenon.

Bigger items tend not to sink much, their surface area is greater then smaller items so much more resistant to sinking, it's why you'll find a 100+ year old piece of roof tin only a 1/2" deep, but a coin a few feet away, 8 inches down.

 

[releventchair]

Cache means stashed. Check out Cache valley out West and how to construct a proper cache if you get bored.
A proper cache involves consideration of the elements affect ,including drainage.
If floored , sinking is not going to factor much. A slab of rock , some durable wood or branches ect..

Local building codes hint of frost depth.
Frost heave can make stones seem to rise at times , then sink. But most of that (depending on locale and soil type) is in the top couple -few inches.

I wouldn't expect much sinking of a couple pounds of coins. Displacement of the container would factor. And of course the firmness of what it rests on.

How deep was it placed? Depends on who buried it.
Some prefer an easy grab to empty the cache or add to it.
Building a fire in winter to thaw the ground , or busting through the frozen surface could inspire a different type cache than simply putting damp (or eventually damp) soil over an object. Think removable lid nearly ground level camouflaged , by blending the ground surface above it with that around it.

Why dig deeper than needed to cover? Or just deep enough to avoid erosion conditions?
Out of sight is first priority. With recovery the second.

 

[gunsil]

Absolutely items sink in dirt. Especially in northern climates with rich soil. The freezing and thawing cycles, combined with earth worms, and vegetation expanding the earth with it's roots and then dying and decaying, cause items sink relatively fast into the earth. Here in Minnesota, once they hit clay or gravel, thats where they usually stop sinking.

I'll try to find it, but i watched a video not too long ago where they put an item in a tub of dirt with worms in it and put a timelapse camera on it, you could literally watch it sink on the timelapse. Sure, things can also get covered up through leave deposits, wind blown dirt etc, but sinking is a very real, observable phenomenon.

Bigger items tend not to sink much, their surface area is greater then smaller items so much more resistant to sinking, it's why you'll find a 100+ year old piece of roof tin only a 1/2" deep, but a coin a few feet away, 8 inches down.

Sorry man, you are dead mistaken. I live in NY state and we have plenty cold winters here. I have been hunting for over fifty years and 90% of the coins I find are in the top 6" of soil in undisturbed sites including colonial coins that have been in the ground for 200 years. At tub full of dirt and worms is not reality by any means. I use fine detectors that will easily hit a dime at 10" and I do find those but in areas where dirt has been added through landscaping. Think what you like, many with many years experience will agree with me, coins don't sink. Even in the sandy soil of Cape Cod I find colonial coins at 6" or less unless in the woods where leaf matter causes dirt build up faster. A jar full of coins originally buried at 1-1&1/2 feet will not sink one centimeter. Yes, I know from experience but we don't talk about that.

 

[GoDeep]

Sorry man, you are dead mistaken. I live in NY state and we have plenty cold winters here. I have been hunting for over fifty years and 90% of the coins I find are in the top 6" of soil in undisturbed sites including colonial coins that have been in the ground for 200 years. At tub full of dirt and worms is not reality by any means. I use fine detectors that will easily hit a dime at 10" and I do find those but in areas where dirt has been added through landscaping. Think what you like, many with many years experience will agree with me, coins don't sink. Even in the sandy soil of Cape Cod I find colonial coins at 6" or less unless in the woods where leaf matter causes dirt build up faster. A jar full of coins originally buried at 1-1&1/2 feet will not sink one centimeter. Yes, I know from experience but we don't talk about that.

Ummm, no, i'm dead right, it's simple biology of soil. Objects absolutely sink in certain types of soil Rates of sink depend on your soil type, clay content, sand content, gravel content, insect and rodent content, amount of rainfall, make up etc. Soil is a cycle of life constantly turning, pulling up nutrients, sending roots down, that decays, that in turn get pulled up again. Soil for the most part, stays a constant depth. Did you even read my post? Bigger objects don't sink as fast (sometimes at all) due to their surface area, but smaller items can and do readily sink . Deposits on top are not the only reason why you find a coin six inches down 200 years later.

By your account if the only reason your coin is 6" deep at 200 years old is deposits on top let's math that out, over the past 10,000 years, your soil would be 25 feet deep! But it's not, is it? It's probably about 1 foot deep before you start hitting clays and gravel. Soil is a constant depth, about average of 1 foot deep across the earth. It doesn't grow deeper year after year (in certain isolated cases, yes, like erosion, wind and flood deposits etc).

Add to the mix roots and rodents and sink rates can really accelerated. You won't see as much sink deep in the woods with a full canopy and little underbrush too as there is not as much small plant root growth and less insect activity.

Edit: Your jar buried 1.5 feet deep doesn't sink any further because its already past the "alive zone" of soil. It's down past most insects and plant roots and into denser material with more clay, gravel and in some areas, is even getting down to bedrock. Again, it all depends on your soil type in your area.

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit one. Our ground is alive with creatures beneath our feet, tunnelling away, these tunnels undermine the above objects and they slowing sink in the voids created:

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 2: Plants grow and expand the earth, displacing it with their growth, annual plants die and decompose, leaving voids that allow higher up denser objects to fill into:

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 3: Wet dry cycles causing heaving and cracking of the earth, objects will sink into these voids, these are dramatic photo's but this occurs in all soil, albeit it on a much smaller scale depending on your rainfall, soil type, vegetation coverage etc.

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 4: Sinking grave in soil, not from deposits on top:

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 5: Sinking cars in soil, not from deposits on top. Sinking cars are a great example, they'll sink up to their axles, sometimes in less then a few years, once they hit the frame and body, the load spreads out across the ground and the sinking is greatly reduced.

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 6: Sinking tractor, you can even see how one side is sinking more then the other, this is not from deposits on top. Once it reaches the frame or rockier soil whichever comes first, it'll pretty much stop sinking. I'm a farm boy and live on a Farm and i can tell you, even when i park a piece of equipment for a few years and come back, it's already sinking!

 

[MiddenMonster]

Exhibit 5: Sinking cars in soil, not from deposits on top. Sinking cars are a great example, they'll sink up to their axles, sometimes in less then a few years, once they hit the frame and body, the load spreads out across the ground and the sinking is greatly reduced.

This is a good example, the key being PSI. The entire weight of the car is pressing down on 4 spots, i.e the footprints of the tires, which are roughly 8"x5". So a 2,000lb. car would put 500lbs. of pressure on each of the 4 tires. The remedy for this would be a crane or other piece of construction equipment that uses pads to spread the load out over a larger footprint.

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 7: Porches are a great example of sinking. Often, their footings are not deep or placed right on top of the soil itself whereas the houses foundation, is deeper with prepared surfaces under the footings hence why you'll often see the porch sinking, but not the house it's attached to:

 

[ARC]

In each situation / area / circumstances can effect the "depth" not only when the item first hit the ground... but at intervals after.

I call it the "elemental effect".

A good example are beach items... they are really subject to this... due to its constant exposure to elements.

Heavy hard core rain... sinks a bit more.

Heavy hard core wind... less depth if sand is blown away... OR deeper if sand accumulates / deposited.

In the woods.. most anyway... the elements are not as extreme usually... so things stay "in situ" more...

BUT... under trees ? ? ? matters some... Open field ? ? ? matters some.

Loose soil ? ? ? compact soil ? ? ? matters as well.

Water flow ? ? ? yep also matters.

Anyway... another factor is the weight shape and size and type of soils said item is and in... etc etc etc etc etc.

No 2 situations are exactly the same... BUT.... when it comes to larger items... its not that they "sink"... its that the ground above the item either gathers... or is removed by the elements.

My wag / 2 cents.

 

[Tpmetal]

Sorry man, you are dead mistaken. I live in NY state and we have plenty cold winters here. I have been hunting for over fifty years and 90% of the coins I find are in the top 6" of soil in undisturbed sites including colonial coins that have been in the ground for 200 years. At tub full of dirt and worms is not reality by any means. I use fine detectors that will easily hit a dime at 10" and I do find those but in areas where dirt has been added through landscaping. Think what you like, many with many years experience will agree with me, coins don't sink. Even in the sandy soil of Cape Cod I find colonial coins at 6" or less unless in the woods where leaf matter causes dirt build up faster. A jar full of coins originally buried at 1-1&1/2 feet will not sink one centimeter. Yes, I know from experience but we don't talk about that.

sorry, also from ny state.... and I disagree. Specifically in any site that is wet. I have found distinct difference in swampy springs areas of cellars when compared the the rest of the areas. The water and winter moves things all around in the soil.

 

[GoDeep]

Exhibit 8: This is a great cross sectional of typical soil. As you can see, the "alive" top soil zone is only about 8" deep (it varies, but worldwide averages about 1 foot). Coins will sink until they hit the gravel, bedrock or clay layers depending on the area and ground makeup but typically about 8-12 inches. Coins and the link, sink because they are denser then the soil and soil is quite porous, and constantly being churned by organisms.

As you can see from this typical cross sectional ground photo (and a million other similar photo's i could post), you are looking at ground that is likely 10,000 plus years old and you can see that top rich soil layer doesn't "grow in depth" in most scenarios. (The scenarios where it can are in areas where you have erosion, flooding, wind deposits, valleys that fill with ancient erosion from mountains and hills etc).

Leaves, grass, and other organic clippings on top DO NOT add any significant depth over time. Within a few years, they decay completely into nutrients and are absorbed into the soil which in turn gets drawn up by plants only to complete the life cycle over and over.

The composition of soil is as follows:

Minerals: 45 percent
Air: 25 Percent
Water: 25 Percent
Organic material: 4 percent

Click to Enlarge:



The reason Gunsil, your jar buried at 1.5 feet isn't sinking any further is because it's below the "alive" topsoil zone and is into more gravels and clays and it's density isn't able to overcome the density of the ground at that depth. But objects up in the upper alive topsoil zone absolutely sink.

 

[Scott (Mich)]

Interesting reading here. I also live on a farm and I have fence posts that are over 50 years old and they have not sunk any further that I can tell. Reading about the soils types and "live" zones makes a lot of sense. My fence posts are put down, I think, maybe two feet or more for the wooden ones, and the metal ones driven in the ground are maybe a foot at most. Even with the weight of the fence wire on them, they have not sunk by any noticeable degree. Yeah, coins and dense metal items seem to get down to a certain depth and then go no further.

Back in the 1980's my friends laughed at me when I used to pick up pennies I found, to the point when they came over for card nights (we were a lot younger), those fools would jokingly throw their cents and other coins in my yard while laughing "Go find those, Scott". Well, ten years later when my dad and I got into metal detecting, I bet we found nearly all of them. But they were in the ground a bit, maybe two - four inches, under the lawn grass root level for sure. I have found also silver coins and older Wheat cents in my yard that were about the same depth down as the coins my goofy friends tossed more recently.

So yeah, things seem to go down a certain distance and stay. But like is mentioned by others here, it all depends on the depth of the top soil or the soil make up as to how far things go down. My land is almost all heavier gravel below the topsoil with a few rare exceptions where it is sandy, so most things don't go too deep.

So if there are any Caches buried around my area, I doubt that they changed depth by much.