anyone ever had a tresspass on church property or school property after dark?

[OUTCOME1]

well i did!!!! here is the law in Virginia on that. my court date is may 28th. i have no criminal history and i am 35 years old. i assume i will be okay. i even sent a letter to the church apologizing and informing them of the incident...it was the police that showed up to relax that wrote me up when they saw my vehicle and me mding!!! crazy!!!


§ 18.2-128. Trespass upon church or school property.

A. Any person who, without the consent of some person authorized to give such consent, goes or enters upon, in the nighttime, the premises or property of any church or upon any school property for any purpose other than to attend a meeting or service held or conducted in such church or school property, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.

 

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[dustytrails123]

Sorry to hear that bud.. dealing with the legal system isnt something id wish on anyone

 

[FloridaHunter]

What is the point of your message? If you trespass on private property you may get arrested? This seems like a no brainer.

 

[dustytrails123]

What is the point of your message? If you trespass on private property you may get arrested? This seems like a no brainer.

Schools and church's are private property?

 

[jeff of pa]

gonna cost ya a few $$ (I'm guessing $300 But I really don't know)
unless the church drops charges
which I doubt.There really is no forgiveness in them,
& they are probably the ones who called
Good thing most places allow payments on Fines,
& I don't think it can be considered Criminal Trespassing,
since you didn't physically Damage anything.

Of course I'm no lawyer.

Anyway Churches Are not Public, so reaction these days Varies

Good Luck ! Keep us informed

 

[jeff of pa]

Schools and church's are private property?

yes Churces are owned by the congregation.
and only the Busy Bodies Make the rules.

Public Schools are Public, However these days they are not open to the Public
without permission. too many scared little bunnies on the school boards

 

[OUTCOME1]

the point of my message is to post the law so that no one makes the mistake i did. have a good day.

 

[OUTCOME1]

churches are

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

well i did!!!! here is the law in Virginia on that. my court date is may 28th. i have no criminal history and i am 35 years old. i assume i will be okay. i even sent a letter to the church apologizing and informing them of the incident...it was the police that showed up to relax that wrote me up when they saw my vehicle and me mding!!! crazy!!!


§ 18.2-128. Trespass upon church or school property.

A. Any person who, without the consent of some person authorized to give such consent, goes or enters upon, in the nighttime, the premises or property of any church or upon any school property for any purpose other than to attend a meeting or service held or conducted in such church or school property, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.

I'm guessing that the "schools" the law is talking about, in this case, is a church-run school. Eg.: like a parochial school, for instance. Because it couldn't possibly mean public schools, as those aren't private property. If I'm wrong, and that meant public schools, then what is this society coming to? Heck, I'm only 51, and I remember when I was a kid, the school yards were just sort of the defacto playgrounds. We'd go there to fly kites, use the monkey bars, etc... And even still today, if you go past the average school yard after-hours, you'll see people jogging the track, using the basketball hoops, etc... Trespassing? Nah. Unless virginia is different.

As far as it concerns churches, sure, they're private property. Not sure why they have special status, over any other type of private property though (a special inclusion with special classes of misdemeanors, etc...). I mean, why aren't they held to the same standard as any other type of trespassing site? Ie.: cow pasture, home, etc..

Another factor to consider (and perhaps this is why they get special class/mention), is that even though, yes, they're "private property", yet let's face it guys: ANYONE can walk on or into a church, in the same manner as you could walk into or onto a shopping center (which is private property too, afterall). But even though a shopping center (for instance) is "private property", no one assumes they are therefore "trespassing", when going to a shopping center, right? On the contrary, the wording on the sign will read something like "permission to pass revokable by owner". So too is it at a church I would think. If you or I walk in there for services, or mid-week to the office to see the secretary (in-lieu of counseling, or to enroll my 4 yr. old in their pre-school, etc...), then no one thinks "I'm trespassing at the church", even though, yes, it's "private property". Thus churches, shopping centers, etc... are in a certain class of private property, as opposed to someone's home, or whatever. Is that making sense?

 

[jeff of pa]

Tom

the important part

goes or enters upon, in the nighttime, the premises or property

in the nighttime. If you enter a mall after hours same thing & Probably same with public schools.

Odds are , Worst case scenario in the day time should be a warning first

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Oh, and as far as it concerns churches, here's something I did when I first started detecting, in the mid 1970s, as a pimple faced teenager. Granted, those were "different times" I suppose. As it turns out, there was a Baptist church in my neighborhood, with big spacious lawns out front. And on the curb, at the edge of this church, was the bus stop where the kids in my neighborhood would gather every morning, and wait for the school bus. So naturally, when I got my metal detector at about 14 yrs. old, and was wondering "where is a good spot to detect", it was only natural for me to think "at the bus stop where 30+ yrs. of kids have always gathered waiting for the school busses". So off I went, and helped myself to the grass, next to the street, next to the church. Now mind you, there was/is really no exact demarkation where the sidewalk area ends, and the church starts. It was only a dirt edge of the road in that area, where the grass of the church eventually starts. So as I detected, and got coins and such, I just naturally widenened my circles, till I was, admittedly, probably eventually on the church lawn (no demarkations, as I say, as to where that exact point began). One day, while hunting the church lawn, a janitor/caretaker of the church saw me, and stood there in the distance and watched. Eventually he came out to see what I was doing. He saw I was doing no harm (in fact, he recognized me as a neighborhood kid). He shrugged his shoulders, and went back about his business.

Now again, as I say, those were perhaps more "innocent times", and perhaps a kid with a detector seemed harmless and innocent. But the odd and devious thing that developed from that was that, I somehow developed the attitude that churches were fair game, quasi-public, and could be hunted. So knowing that I'd found a few silvers on this church's front lawn, I therefore got on my bike, and checked other church's lawns as well. I do recall getting run off of two of them though .... doh!

 

[jeff of pa]

I searched Church Yards in the 70's .

age 16 through probably early 20's
was never told no, till I got older and started asking

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom

the important part


in the nighttime. If you enter a mall after hours same thing & Probably same with public schools.

Odds are , Worst case scenario in the day time should be a warning first

Yes, I see that now. And I suppose such specifics were granted to churches and schools, for the PRECISE REASON that someone up-to-no-good, could merely say "oh, I was just going here to pray", etc.... And ... since churches are admittedly open to persons whose intentions are sincere, it would digress into a debate of semantics. In fact, churches usually WELCOME and INVITE visitors, do they not??, haha. So sadly, thieves intent on breaking into churches, might do the ruse of saying they were there for purpose of worship, or to pray, etc... Unlike trying to come up with a reason for being inside someone's house, for instance, where NO good reason would ever exist, to dream up as reason for being there. In a church, it's theoretically possible. I mean, for example, I could walk into my own church this very minute (even though it's not Sunday), and odds are, no one would batt an eye. I mean, they have mid-week staff, clothing and food pantry give-away to poor people, staff who counsel for marriages and such, etc.... In other words, there is people coming and going continually, and and it is not unusual at all for someone to pull up, walk in, and have legitimate business.

So I suppose in order to "close-loopholes", something like that Virginia law was written for there.

 

[jeff of pa]

in the early 80's about the same time the fmdac formed
saying We need to ask things changed for the worse

 

[Boomer-1]

I always carry a "G" with me.



It really helps with those pesky signs. Just cover the offending "N".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

in the early 80's about the same time the fmdac formed
saying We need to ask things changed for the worse

Wow Jeff, this is interesting coming from a MODERATOR, no less

I remember those times (late '70s/early '80s) very well. And actually, even prior to the FMDAC, there was already stories circulating (ie.: stories of bootings or legal hassles, pleas for solidarities, and admonishments for us hobbyists to "know the laws", etc...) even before the FMDAC. The FMDAC was started in about 1984 or so I think. But even just prior to that, in some treasure mag's (d/t there was no internet at the time), there had already been some editorials, etc... in treasure mag's, citing about laws coming about, or an unfortunate md'r who was ticketed, blah blah blah. Still though, I don't remember much impact, or concern. I suppose any of us who read of such things, would have just subconsciously thought "oh that's from someplace far away and doesn't concern me", or "no one cares about md'ing where I'm at, it's not an issue here", etc...

But your right: When the FMDAC mailers started making the rounds to subscriber clubs, then for the first time, you had a periodical, and an organization, whose SOLE PURPOSE was for nothing more than this matter. Each issue had the latest legal hassles that some hunter or state was facing. Admonitions to write the congressmen in that state or county or whatever, etc... And each issue rehearsed and stressed the importance of making sure that you too didn't run afoul of laws. You know, like the code-of-ethics clearly said (which was also coming about on each detector instructions about that time): "I will know and abide by all laws".

Nothing in the above paragraph can be argued with. The concept was great, and our club send extra money, above and beyond our dues. And we did send letters to to the addresses given to us. All so far-so-good.

But an odd thing started to happen, that I witnessed firsthand: Once the "scary stories" started making the rounds, people then knew (and was rehearsed in the newsletters) that they should "know all laws". And this was most often interpretted as meaning "go ask". So people started to do JUST THAT! I mean, afterall, you "don't want to become the next statistic" do you? And afterall, you wouldn't want to "get arrested" would you? And afterall, we need to make sure there's no laws against it, right? So what better way to find out, than to ask? I mean, who better to ask, than the ENTITY themselves, right? It all made perfect sense, and this, we were told, was to put our hobby in the right light, to be ambassadors of a good image, and so forth. All sounds good so far, right?

But the odd outcome, in a lot of cases, was "no's" filtered around amongst the ranks of md'rs, at places where ....... some of us old-timers, had simply always gone, and never had a problem. In fact, it seemed sort of odd that you "needed to ask", to begin with (it had never occured to us). And when you would ask the newbie "why did you ask?", they would point to material, stories, admonitions, etc... that they'd read, in material not-unlike what the FMDAC was putting out.

NOW I'M NOT FAULTING the FMDAC. What their intention was, was good and nobel. No one can argue with a solidarity on the behalf of their chosen hobby. But I wish there had been some way to have ..... back then ... and even now .... to explain to folks that the WAY to find out if there's any rules or laws against them, is too look it up. NOT go asking "can I?" type questions. But this was never made clear. In fact, to the contrary, stories also circulated (and still do to this day), of people who successfully "got permission" at their city, or county or state or whatever. The connotation of this is easy to see: It was as if to imply: "and so too should you do as I have done, and go get permission" Ie.: the mere fact that someone got a "yes", simply means, that therefore permission was needed (lest how else could they have answered your question, if their say-so, wasn't required?).

At a certain point, I came to realize, having seen the evolution of the before and after, that the pyschology of "no one cares, till you ask" was taking hold. Not always mind you, but enough that ..... it was starting to make sense. So, I would never ask. But the problem THEN becomes, is anyone with such an attitude, was/is looked at as "lawless", etc...

Believe me, I tried. I tried to go the "high road". The turning point for me, was in the late 1980s, the local high school hear (built in 1919) was being renovated and reconstructed. A part of the plans called for tearing out the inner court grass plaza. Mind you, hundreds of kids a day sat on that lawn, eating their lunch, for 70+ yrs.! Sounded like a great opportunity to metal detect, when the tractors were to tear out the grass. So as president of our club, I orchestrated a nice letter requesting permission, so as to do "the right thing". We showed them our liability insurance, told them that all items would be donated to the city museum, etc.... We waited, waited, and waited for a reply. Then made calls finding out where our request sat, etc... Meanwhile, the demolition crews came in. Then eventually, I could see through the fence, that the grass was being scraped! So I put my efforts into high gear, making calls to the decision makers in-whose hands our request sat. However, one night, on my way home from work, I drove by the site. I could SEE a fellow md'ing inside there!! So I parked, went in, and could see that it was a local guy I knew (who wasn't a club member). I told him "Hey, how did you get in here? We are waiting for them to approve us to come in!?" He looked at me like I was from outer-space! He said: "I just waited till after 5pm, and walked right in! It's a public school isn't it?" No one cared. He'd been there several days already, and had dozens of silver coins, fistfulls of wheaties, etc... He opened up his apron and showed me. As we were talking, an after-school janitor walks up, to see what my friend's latest finds were for that night (apparently they'd been gabbing over the previous few nights, and the janitor was now excited to see each night's new tallies).

THAT DID IT. I couldn't resist. I walked back to my truck, got my detector, and joined in the fray!! However, in the days that followed, our "answer" came back from city hall school district people: "no".

When word leaked out that I'd been in the site (and the rest of the club not there), it caused chaos, bad feelings, and an attitude of how I'd been lawless or something As club president, you can imagine that I felt bad. A few members never returned (or from then-on-out, looked at me askew anyhow). THAT was when I was beggining to "GET IT". I began to wonder if things like this, that I was seeing on this micro-scale, weren't also true of larger county, city, federal, and even country-wide scales. And the more I look at the different stories, tracing back to genesis of dire-rules, the more I am inclined to think that the vast majority of them start, by md'rs thinking they need to make themselves a big red "x" in need of others princely sanctions

 

[jeff of pa]

in some cases NO Means NO, But not all cases. Sometimes it means

"Legally I can't say yes, Because if you get hurt I don't want to be sued"

I asked at a road construction site once.
They were removing a Whole Block of Houses.

The Watchmen, said I can't give you permission,
people are still upset they were Kicked out their homes,
and Liability issues. However.......
If I see you in the yards as I drive by, I'm not going to stop

Most letters have failed for me, I try not to do letters.

Yes I ask Permission where I feel I should,
but I also know where it's a waste of time to ask,
but not a risk to detect without asking.

& Still I believe the FMDAC caused permit Systems & No detecting Signs
through their public awareness programs.

Good or Bad, it is their doing

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Jeff, yeah, I feel bad for the FMDAC if they are reading this. Because as I say, their intentions were good. Who could have forseen this? It was an un-intended consequence, that no one could have forseen. I too, at the time, would have assumed, that if anyone waltzed in to city, or county, or state, and asked "Hi, can I metal detect?", that the answer would be strictly a legal one. Ie.: you would be shown to a rule that actually said "no metal detecting", if one existed. But alas, it's all too easy for someone to morph something else to apply to your "pressing question", and "no" becomes the easy answer. Mind you, those very same persons you're asking .... sadly .... might never have paid any mind to someone detecting. Ie.: the thought or concept might never have occured to them, and you'd have gone completely un-noticed.

And even more sadly, is the psychology snowballs upon itself: The minute a "no" is passed out to someone asking, guess what happens? that same ranger, or clerk, or whatever, when they see ANOTHER md'r, they start booting others! And then guess what happens when news of such bootings circulate? It merely causes MORE people to go asking, so that they "don't get booted". And then the vicious circle picks up speed. The more people ask, the more no's get put forth. The more no's that get put forth, the more bootings. The more bootings, the more people ask. See the vicious circle?

 

[jeff of pa]

and finally they get tired of being asked and request signs.

and in order to pay for signs with park Money, a rule must be drawn up.

Bang ! It's official NO DETECTING !

When a place is Verbally put off limits to detecting,
wait for a change of Guards, Don't ask for signs !
you just may get your wish

 

[Tom_in_CA]

and finally they get tired of being asked and request signs.

and in order to pay for signs with park Money, a rule must be drawn up.

Bang ! It's official NO DETECTING !

When a place is Verbally put off limits to detecting,
wait for a change of Guards, Don't ask for signs !
you just may get your wish

Yes, so true. I'm starting to save threads where this exact evolution was un-deniably true chain of events. Because there were/are people who just don't believe it. Or if you cite one story/example, they look at that as the exception, and not the "norm". So to make it easy, a few months ago, I started a file of thread-links, for just this purpose.

It gets complicated though (not clear cut), because if ever you or I say "no one would have cared" or "it's not *really* illegal", it's too easy for the person answering such an statement, by thinking the way to unravel it, is to go ask. They find someone to tell them "no". So in their mind, it was/is YOU who are mistaken. I mean, afterall, they got a "no", so HOW could anyone have said "just go"? But what this fails to realize, is that the ONLY REASON they got a "no", is .... doh ... because they asked.

Or someone gets booted from a place, and ... under his breath .... curses the person who advised them not to ask. Their booting is, to them, proof positive that, ... therefore "they should have asked" to have avoided this booting. Sounds logical enough, on the surface. But again, it fails to take into account, that probably the ONLY reason they were even booted to begin with, is that a rule or policy came about, via the very psychology I speak of.

Yes I know, this advice doesn't help persons in places where there are ALREADY rules and/or policies, but hopefully it will help where there isn't yet attention or big-red-X's on your back.