Ancient coin ? (Updated! more pics)

[history hunter]

I found this coin while metal detecting when I was a kid. I thought it was fake until I brought it to a coin show and a dealer said it was not necessarily fake. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it?

 

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[Silver Searcher]

Nice link mojjax Now we know Mark Parker's take on the coin and that was without contacting him

And with out handling or studying it

SS

Only pointing out that Mark Parker was suggested as an expert contact opinion

Would be very unlikely this many ancient coins would survive in this good condition and ONLY in America.

Copy of a silver coin. Seems to echo the remarks made in this thread

SWR...I like the intro on your aviator

SS

Me too. Is someone claiming this copy of a silver coin to be real?

Don't think so but a lot of people(incuding experts) have ID it to be fantasy, from a picture.....WoW talented or what

SS

Yes. From a picture that has the wrong fonts and spelling and several other easily identifiable traits of a not-so-real coin of that period.

Blundered wording often appears on Acient coins, there were no school teachers in those days

SS

 

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[Silver Searcher]

Nice link mojjax Now we know Mark Parker's take on the coin and that was without contacting him

And with out handling or studying it

SS

Only pointing out that Mark Parker was suggested as an expert contact opinion

Would be very unlikely this many ancient coins would survive in this good condition and ONLY in America.

Copy of a silver coin. Seems to echo the remarks made in this thread

SWR...I like the intro on your aviator

SS

Me too. Is someone claiming this copy of a silver coin to be real?

Don't think so but a lot of people(incuding experts) have ID it to be fantasy, from a picture.....WoW talented or what

SS

Yes. From a picture that has the wrong fonts and spelling and several other easily identifiable traits of a not-so-real coin of that period.

Blundered wording often appears on Acient coins, there were no school teachers in those days

SS

Sure there were school teachers in those days. There is a huge difference between a misprinted coin and a blatantly misspelled coin with the wrong fonts!

Blundered legends(misspelt) appear on Hammered coins all the time, it is very common, coin makers were usually very poor, and uneducated

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Has this link been posted yet ?
It's one that someone found in Maine , and they asked Mark Parker .

http://www.treasurenet.com/cgi-bin/treasure/westeast/askmarkparker.pl/Show?_id=200307

Wow a great find Mojjax!! I wish we could see the rest of the chain it may help with the ID. HistoryHunter, I suggest sell while you can because the price is falling.

SS, seriously, you dont have to handle this to tell its not ancient. As someone said, it just screams copy. Its that obvious.

THE MAINE COIN

SEEMS LIKE OLD TIMES
Mark, I found this chain-style watch fob at a storm-swept beach in Maine. Both the chain and the coin attached to it seem to be made of gilt bronze. What I'd like to know is, what kind of coin is it, is it genuine, and does it have any value?

It's evidently a copy of an ancient Greek silver coin- specifically, a Siculo-Punic tetradrachm struck around 320-300 B.C. The wreathed-head portrait on the obverse represents one of the lesser female deities from Greek mythology- possibly Tanit or Artemis- and I believe that the Punic inscription beneath the horse's head means, "The People of the Camp," referring to mercenaries fighting for Carthage. An authentic coin of this type could bring over $1,000 in Very Fine condition; but if this is a late 19th or early 20th century base-metal copy made for ornamental use, I'd estimate the value of the fob at less than $100.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Has this link been posted yet ?
It's one that someone found in Maine , and they asked Mark Parker .

http://www.treasurenet.com/cgi-bin/treasure/westeast/askmarkparker.pl/Show?_id=200307

Wow a great find Mojjax!! I wish we could see the rest of the chain it may help with the ID. HistoryHunter, I suggest sell while you can because the price is falling.

SS, seriously, you dont have to handle this to tell its not ancient. As someone said, it just screams copy. Its that obvious.

THE MAINE COIN

SEEMS LIKE OLD TIMES
Mark, I found this chain-style watch fob at a storm-swept beach in Maine. Both the chain and the coin attached to it seem to be made of gilt bronze. What I'd like to know is, what kind of coin is it, is it genuine, and does it have any value?

It's evidently a copy of an ancient Greek silver coin- specifically, a Siculo-Punic tetradrachm struck around 320-300 B.C. The wreathed-head portrait on the obverse represents one of the lesser female deities from Greek mythology- possibly Tanit or Artemis- and I believe that the Punic inscription beneath the horse's head means, "The People of the Camp," referring to mercenaries fighting for Carthage. An authentic coin of this type could bring over $1,000 in Very Fine condition; but if this is a late 19th or early 20th century base-metal copy made for ornamental use, I'd estimate the value of the fob at less than $100.

I will give him the $100, no problem

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

here is a real one .....http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=90544

She has an earing and not the same roots and no Syracuse but yes, it was modeled after this coin that has already been posted several times.. BTW I can view the entire page.

 

[Silver Searcher]

here is a real one .....http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=90544

She has an earing and not the same roots and no Syracuse but yes, it was modeled after this coin that has already been posted several times.. BTW I can view the entire page.

So can I what's all the fuss about the page

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Don't think so but a lot of people(incuding experts) have ID it to be fantasy, from a picture.....WoW talented or what

SS

I will give him the $100, no problem

SS

Mark, I found this chain-style watch fob at a storm-swept beach in Maine. Both the chain and the coin attached to it seem to be made of gilt bronze. What I'd like to know is, what kind of coin is it, is it genuine, and does it have any value?quote

SS do you have any idea what a bronze coin would look like after 2000 years on a windswept beach? It doesnt take much talent to realize the corrosive abilities of a saltwater environment.

As Mark Parker said it is evidently a modern copy. It may be worth a hundred bucks because of the fame. But as more coins surface, these "Farley coins" may become a mere curiosity, worth no more than Piggys Pignutts.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Don't think so but a lot of people(incuding experts) have ID it to be fantasy, from a picture.....WoW talented or what

SS

I will give him the $100, no problem

SS

Mark, I found this chain-style watch fob at a storm-swept beach in Maine. Both the chain and the coin attached to it seem to be made of gilt bronze. What I'd like to know is, what kind of coin is it, is it genuine, and does it have any value?quote

SS do you have any idea what a bronze coin would look like after 2000 years on a windswept beach? It doesnt take much talent to realize the corrosive abilities of a saltwater environment.

As Mark Parker said it is evidently a modern copy. It may be worth a hundred bucks because of the fame. But as more coins surface, these "Farley coins" may become a mere curiosity, worth no more than Piggys Pignutts.

Bigcy.....this is the last reply I will make in this thread, when I posted a picture of a stunning Roman Bronze, I was asked how didn't I know it hadn't been lost recently. Well that could apply to HH coin(recently lost on beach) you keep refering to it as a coin when HH refers to it as a chain style watch fob, which is it. As you keep replying to me in this thread, it sudgests to me you still have doubts of your own, as to the correct validation of HH find

I don't know who Mark Parker is, but all I will say on this is, if a coin expert looks at a picture of a coin and then tells the finder it's a fantasy copy, he is infact putting his name and reputation on the line, should at a later date the authenticity of the coin became a fact, were would this leave the experts reputation, I'll tell you were in taters, this why NO coin expert would put his name and reputation on the line, based on pictures from a email, he would want the coin in front of him to study in detail, this has been my point all along...my gut feeling is the same as yours about the find, but if I were a coin expert which I am not, I certainly wouldn't put my reputation on the line from a picture.

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcy.....this is the last reply I will make in this thread, when I posted a picture of a stunning Roman Bronze, I was asked how didn't I know it hadn't been lost recently. Well that could apply to HH coin(recently lost on beach) you keep refering to it as a coin when HH refers to it as a chain style watch fob, which is it. As you keep replying to me in this thread, it sudgests to me you still have doubts of your own, as to the correct validation of HH find

I don't know who Mark Parker is, but all I will say on this is, if a coin expert looks at a picture of a coin and then tells the finder it's a fantasy copy, he is infact putting his name and reputation on the line, should at a later date the authenticity of the coin became a fact, were would this leave the experts reputation, I'll tell you were in taters, this why NO coin expert would put his name and reputation on the line, based on pictures from a email, he would want the coin in front of him to study in detail, this has been my point all along...my gut feeling is the same as yours about the find, but if I were a coin expert which I am not, I certainly wouldn't put my reputation on the line from a picture.

SS

I think you just like to argue. You apparently waited all day for me to come online before responding. But thats OK. 8) I am not here to argue only to give my opinion. What you are saying is that there is a chance that the Maine coin/fob was recently lost and the Massachusetts coin was also recently lost and HH Wisconsin coin was also recently lost from someones collection of mint ancient coins that exist nowhere else on this planet besides America? Can you say that all in one breath?

Mark Parker writes for Western & Eastern Treasures Magazine. Maybe you should write to him with your opinion. Maybe he had a better pic.


Your difference of opinion is always welcome and I hope I have not upset you SS but if I disagree I will say so in most cases. Although what you say is true about recently lost coins, this coin/fob has other issues.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

As to the correct ID, IMO we do not yet know. I IDed one of the Farley coins from a 1909 Sears Roebuck and Co. catalog. I originally thought HH's coin was a zipper pull, then later a watch fob. Mark Parker thinks it may be a watch fob and the part of the chain we can see sure looks like an old fob chain. I wish we could see the rest of the chain.

I will agree with you that pictures can be deceiving, but this is all we have to go on. HistoryHunter was nice enough to take great pics on request from different angles. We make IDs all the time from the pics. Of course some mistakes are made. I think we got this one right. I was originally at 99 percent sure because I was only looking at pics but now I am getting closer to 100 percent. I have very little doubt it is a copy. Do you really have any doubt SS that this is not an ancient coin? I hope you will not stop posting because opposite views are always welcome but be prepared for a response.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Bigcy.....this is the last reply I will make in this thread, when I posted a picture of a stunning Roman Bronze, I was asked how didn't I know it hadn't been lost recently. Well that could apply to HH coin(recently lost on beach) you keep refering to it as a coin when HH refers to it as a chain style watch fob, which is it. As you keep replying to me in this thread, it sudgests to me you still have doubts of your own, as to the correct validation of HH find

I don't know who Mark Parker is, but all I will say on this is, if a coin expert looks at a picture of a coin and then tells the finder it's a fantasy copy, he is infact putting his name and reputation on the line, should at a later date the authenticity of the coin became a fact, were would this leave the experts reputation, I'll tell you were in taters, this why NO coin expert would put his name and reputation on the line, based on pictures from a email, he would want the coin in front of him to study in detail, this has been my point all along...my gut feeling is the same as yours about the find, but if I were a coin expert which I am not, I certainly wouldn't put my reputation on the line from a picture.

SS

I think you just like to argue. You apparently waited all day for me to come online before responding. But thats OK. 8) I am not here to argue only to give my opinion. What you are saying is that there is a chance that the Maine coin/fob was recently lost and the Massachusetts coin was also recently lost and HH Wisconsin coin was also recently lost from someones collection of mint ancient coins that exist nowhere else on this planet besides America? Can you say that all in one breath?

Mark Parker writes for Western & Eastern Treasures Magazine. Maybe you should write to him with your opinion. Maybe he had a better pic.


Your difference of opinion is always welcome and I hope I have not upset you SS but if I disagree I will say so in most cases. Although what you say is true about recently lost coins, this coin/fob has other issues.

You have made me go back on my word (posting in this thread)...I never waited for you to come online, I logged on about 1 hour ago, and saw your reply

As for arguing, if expressing my opinion on a matter is regarded as arguing then yes I like to argue and I'm not upset, I like to have these discussions with you

SS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I never waited for you to come online, I logged on about 1 hour ago, and saw your reply

SS

ok sorry it just appeared that way.

You make a good point that pictures can be deceiving especially colors. But mark Parker IDs from pics all the time and so do we here at TN. Granted some mistakes may be made here. But I think we got this one right. The only thing lacking is to find the fob in its entirety or to find an advertisement.

 

[history hunter]

As to the correct ID, IMO we do not yet know. I IDed one of the Farley coins from a 1909 Sears Roebuck and Co. catalog. I originally thought HH's coin was a zipper pull, then later a watch fob. Mark Parker thinks it may be a watch fob and the part of the chain we can see sure looks like an old fob chain. I wish we could see the rest of the chain.

I will agree with you that pictures can be deceiving, but this is all we have to go on. HistoryHunter was nice enough to take great pics on request from different angles. We make IDs all the time from the pics. Of course some mistakes are made. I think we got this one right. I was originally at 99 percent sure because I was only looking at pics but now I am getting closer to 100 percent. I have very little doubt it is a copy. Do you really have any doubt SS that this is not an ancient coin? I hope you will not stop posting because opposite views are always welcome but be prepared for a response.

The coin/fob in the pic you are talking about does not have a brass ring in the hole like mine, that is a little strange.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The coin/fob in the pic you are talking about does not have a brass ring in the hole like mine, that is a little strange.

There are still some mysteries here but I believe these were all made from the same die.

So far we have the following "Farley Coins" with the uprooted palm of the "Alabama type" variety.
ALABAMA COIN, ARKANSAS COIN, WISCONSIN COIN, MASSACHUSETTS COIN, and the MAINE COIN.



THE OKLAHOMA THURIUM COIN appears to be a gentlemans watch fob from Sears Roebuck, IDed by me.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just received a reply from Professor Mark Mcmenamin!

Dear Dale Brennan (aka History Hunter),

I received your request to comment on your new find of a bronze putative ancient coin with the palm tree showing dangling roots. This coin is an example of one of the mysterious Farley Coins. There has been much discussion of these coins in popular and scholarly publications. Some have considered these coins to be evidence of a Carthaginian presence in America. However, thanks to new discoveries such as yours, it now appears that this coin series in fact represents fantasy copies of ancient coin designs combining Greek and Carthaginian elements. I was able to demonstrate this in the following book:

McMenamin, M. A. 2000. Phoenicians, Fakes and Barry Fell: Solving the Mystery of Carthaginian Coins Found in America. Meanma Press, South Hadley, Massachusetts. ISBN 1893882012.

The late Gloria Farley, who had read of my Carthaginian map coin research, first brought these fantasy replicas to my attention. Her specimen was very worn and corroded. I was able, in 2000, to locate a Farley Coin in Northampton, MA, from the same or very similar dies that still retained mint luster under a lacquer coating. Thus no way can this be an ancient bronze coin. Nevertheless, your coin remains an important piece of American history and will henceforth be referred to as the ?Wisconsin Farley Coin.? Who minted these fantasy coins, and why, remains a mystery. Also mysterious is why these coins are scattered all over Eastern and Midwestern North America. Somebody went to a lot of trouble to mint these coins, probably well over one hundred years ago. I would very much like to learn the answers to these questions. Farley coins such as yours sell on the open market in the 50-100 dollar range. Eleven specimens are known, from five different die varieties. Your coin is of the Alabama-type die variety. These coins will likely become more valuable as we learn more about them. For example, how deeply was your coin buried?

At present, no authentic Carthaginian coins have been found in North America. Jeremiah Epstein in his 1980 article in Current Anthropology actually mentions one of the "Farley coins" in his paper. He accepted it as a genuine ancient coin and did not identify it as a copy or fantasy piece.

Carthaginian map coin theory, on the other hand, is still going strong and has gained additional supporters. The most recent paper on this subject is the following:

McMenamin, M. 2009. The mystery of the Carthaginian map coins. NI (Numismatics International) Bulletin, v. 44, nos. 7/8, p. 125-126.

You have made an excellent and important find. If you wish to post my reply to TreasureNet, please feel free to do so, but please let me know when you post it, many thanks.

Happy hunting,

Mark McMenamin

-----------------------------------------

I wanted to take this time to thank Professor Mark Mcmenamin for responding.

Does anyone have his book? McMenamin, M. A. 2000. Phoenicians, Fakes and Barry Fell: Solving the Mystery of Carthaginian Coins Found in America. Meanma Press, South Hadley, Massachusetts. ISBN 1893882012. http://phoenicia.org/press.html


Here is a related discussion that I havent had time to read yet but may be of interest. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=232140.0

 

[traderoftreasures]

To the novice, many Carthaginian coins may appear to look the same since a large number of types have a female head on the obverse and a horse on the reverse. Closer examination reveals a wide variety of types and styles, despite the tendency to use recurring devices on the coins. In an attempt to help myself better understand the relationships between the various coin types and historical events; I developed a timeline matching Carthaginian coins to periods in the city’s history. After a brief overview of Carthaginian coinage, the timeline has links to images of some of the coins and additional information about specific events or coins. The timeline is followed by two appendices. The first appendix lists the attributions for the coin images and the second appendix lists some of the Punic legends used on the coins. A list of useful references is also provided. I hope you find the timeline as helpful and enjoyable as I do.

OVERVIEW

Traditionally described as having been founded circa 814 BC by Phoenicians from Tyre, Carthage became a great mercantile state and seapower that carried out extensive trade around the Mediterranean. After gaining control of the North African coast in the 6th century BC, Carthaginian influence spread into the western Mediterranean. An empire that consisted of a relatively small population with Phoenician ancestry, Carthage depended on the services of mercenaries for any significant military action. Expansion into western Sicily resulted in intermittent wars with the Greek cities of Sicily, often involving Syracuse, during the 5th and 4th centuries BC. On several occasions, Carthage was unsuccessful in gaining long-term control of the eastern half of the island. Initially, Carthage and Rome had the common goal of limiting Greek interests in Sicily and southern Italy, respectively. However, Roman intervention in Sicily lead to conflict with Carthage in the 3rd century BC, ending with the destruction of Carthage in 146 BC. Most Carthaginian coinage was produced for the wars against Syracuse and, later, Rome.

Carthaginian coinage developed relatively late at the end of the 5th century BC and, then, probably due to a need for mercenary payments in Sicily rather than for local use. Initially, coins struck in Sicily under the authority of Carthage or allied Punic cities (Siculo-Punic) often imitated coins of the Greek cities on the island, like Syracuse. Over the next two centuries, the coins of Carthage developed a distinctly “Punic” style with the recurring theme of an obverse female head wearing a wreath of corn, usually facing left, and described as the main Carthaginian goddess Tanit (possibly Demeter or Persephone). The reverse often had a horse in various positions (standing, stepping, leaping, looking back, etc.), facing right. The horse may have been a civic symbol of Carthage or a representation of Ba’al, the chief male deity. Palm trees were another device commonly used and may have been a fertility symbol or even served as a punning reference to Phoenicians, i.e., Carthage. For almost a century (350-270 BC), the large output of gold and electrum shekels from Carthage had very consistent designs with head Tanit / horse standing, even though the gold content declined with each issue. Interestingly, during the same period, there was a variety of types of Siculo-Punic silver tetradrachms, sometimes with exceptional portraits.

During times of Carthaginian control, coins were also minted in Sardinia (320-238 BC and 216 BC), Spain (237-209 BC) and southern Italy (216-203 BC). With very few exceptions, i.e., the brief legends on some of the of Siculo-Punic issues, most coin types are anepigraphic, which sometimes makes the site of origin difficult to determine. This is particularly true for several bronze types, which tended to circulate wherever there was a Carthaginian presence. As a result, hoard evidence, overstrikes, style, precious metal content, die alignment (Carthage used aligned dies) and control marks (dots, symbols, letters) are important for attribution and/or dating. Style can be deceptive since the same coin types will occasionally vary from exceptional artistry to an extremely crude and unattractive style, depending on the skill of the engraver. Although some progress has been made in the few last decades, the dating of some types remains controversial.

The last century of Carthage’s existence was dominated by the Punic Wars with Rome. The first two wars placed great strain on the Carthaginian economy due to military expenses, loss of territory and large indemnities to Rome. Several issues were produced due to these conflicts, and better quality coins were exported during the First and Second Punic Wars while more debased coinage was used at Carthage when fortunes declined. The designs and styles were generally less attractive than the earlier Siculo-Punic issues. Of course, the coinage of Carthage came to an abrupt end with the destruction of the city by Roman legions at the conclusion of the Third Punic War in 146 BC.

 

[traderoftreasures]

here is a cool fake coin site of interest......http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=topn&cat=0&page=23

 

[traderoftreasures]

To the novice, many Carthaginian coins may appear to look the same since a large number of types have a female head on the obverse and a horse on the reverse...............

You forgot to give credits and link

http://www.ancient-coins.com/resourcedetail.asp?rsc=4

thanks iv'e been trying to look up like 10 what is it's at once and had forgot.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

To the novice, many Carthaginian coins may appear to look the same since a large number of types have a female head on the obverse and a horse on the reverse...............

You forgot to give credits and link

http://www.ancient-coins.com/resourcedetail.asp?rsc=4

thanks iv'e been trying to look up like 10 what is it's at once and had forgot.

Without giving credit it looks like your own words. I always try to make my copy and pastes blue like this.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

here is a cool fake coin site of interest......http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=topn&cat=0&page=23

Yes its a good site and already been posted several times on this thread. (hard to read all 5 pages I dont believe the uprooted palm coin is there.