Anatomy of a treasure legend

[Crow]

Ah ha amigos

Crow perhaps this might be of some interest?

Here is an 1893 picture it would be interest to indemnify this location in relation to the railway line. This encampment Crow predates any alleged burial by the old Indian lad in 1896. And we have comments in one newspaper that she buried it near where she had her old Tepee? Was this a picture of John Mitchell's mother Ty-pee in 1893? Or just another group nearby?

Kanacki

Gidday Kanacki

I am not sure but an interesting Photograph. You can see the railways perhaps we can indenfy landmarks in relation to that land map I post earlier. Clearly near the railway land but I am not quite sure it was on the land rented by RE Kirckpatrick?

I love to say it was but I am not sure.

Crow

 

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[Crow]

Just to give image in ones mind of what John Mitchell's mother would looked when younger of the tribe living near Pendleton. the women below is unidentified but she was from the The Umatilla Reservation was established in 1855 for the Cayuse, Umatilla, and Walla Walla Indians. They joined together as the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Reservation in 1949.

Crow

 

[releventchair]

And in one of newspaper they tried to till the soil for it. Isn't 2 feet deep as the can allegedly buried a little deep for a plow. But perhaps we can be enlightened by a wheat farmer on that?

Kanacki

Good question.
One that fits the site.

Compaction of soil is often what determines depth of plowing. After original breaking.
Most life is in the top few inches. While we know that today , in the past going deeper may have been thought to have benifit.

Anyways , unless soil compaction depth was an issue , it is not likely equipment to reach 2 foot or more would be on hand. Like subsoilers, rippers ect..
Till proven otherwise though , perhaps they did have plow depth.
Even then , how well can a can be found dragging a plow?
If one wanted to hit a round post below the surface , would the deliberate attempt be more successful than if one wanted to avoid the post? .....

Then there is the nearly two decades of the can being below ground.
Strike it with crushing force and it depends on the integrity of the cans walls ,and rust effect. And was the gold wrapped? Or loose?
Looking for the gleam/glint of coins vs a drab weathered leather pouch are quite different.
One of my dogs dug up a buried longer than decade leather glove from around 17 or more inches. Despite retained integrity (to a point )it did not look like a glove at first. And matched the soil very well.

The implements could push soil a variety of directions. But unless watched , could force soil (and it's contents) into walls of disturbed earth.
Relic hunters can check a field annually and year after year find what was missed prior.
Even without deep tillage.
Deeper tillage means more soil landing somewhere. Unless a rock rides just right and sees the surface , where does it go? Do any actually go deeper?

I try to avoid going deeper than my shallow loam here. Breaking beyond risks losing it. So I have no deep tillage equipment. Well , I do have a single bottom plow that fits either tractor , on display in a flower bed. I sure wouldn't want to try to find a 2 foot deep can with it.

 

[releventchair]

And while too much coffee charges my imagination...

North of me another nation/tribe used to bury foodstuffs.
Frost depth mattered in recovery , but so too did location of cache.
Inside a lodge the ground did not freeze the same. Communal stuffs could be in a trench between lodges. But personal effects could be expected to be placed below a sleeper/owner.

Our wingspan is roughly our height. So center of chest to fingertip is roughly half our height.
Minus center of chest to armpit to reach in a small hole leaves less than two cubits. (?)
Our woman subject at two foot depth /reach in a small diameter hole could be reasonable.

But why a location outside her lodge/teepee? She had privacy inside. For both making a cache and it's recovery. And importantly , keeping an eye on traffic near it , and any attention towards snooping for it. If anyone knew about it.

Being outside her lodge had to have a reason.
A later recovery after lodge was moved? (We know of stone/rock rings around lodge sites reused , but the deck could be shuffled of personal lodge locations on return?

Or...Was there a natural feature that caught her eye? A spot less digging was required maybe. Or out of reach of soils disturbed by agricultural efforts?
Above the camp area as the cache site was mentioned.
Were there areas or an area the plow avoided there? Was soil so well drained or lacking loam/life it was not planted?
Along side a large rock or boulder (I have no idea what is there) , a plow would miss. Or a deep trough of erosion.(?)

The articles hint that the area around the lodge site was worked deliberately for the cache.
If not missed , as far as disturbing the can , perhaps the can was not in the soil worked?

 

[Idahodutch]

Relevantchair,
You must make good coffee
Great thoughts on the subject can.

 

[Idahodutch]

Kanacki and Crow,
Nice finds with the pictures.

 

[BC1969]

Stay off tribal lands!
That is all.

 

[Crow]

Stay off tribal lands!
That is all.

Gidday Amigo

Bit hard for Kanacki he lives on island that is all tribal land.

Does that mean their Hotel Casino, golf course, cultural center and RV park?

No one here amigo is advocating trespassing without permission on any tribal or non tribal private land.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Relevantchair,
You must make good coffee
Great thoughts on the subject can.

My sentiments exactly....

Coffee?

Crow

 

[Crow]

And while too much coffee charges my imagination...

North of me another nation/tribe used to bury foodstuffs.
Frost depth mattered in recovery , but so too did location of cache.
Inside a lodge the ground did not freeze the same. Communal stuffs could be in a trench between lodges. But personal effects could be expected to be placed below a sleeper/owner.

Our wingspan is roughly our height. So center of chest to fingertip is roughly half our height.
Minus center of chest to armpit to reach in a small hole leaves less than two cubits. (?)
Our woman subject at two foot depth /reach in a small diameter hole could be reasonable.

But why a location outside her lodge/teepee? She had privacy inside. For both making a cache and it's recovery. And importantly , keeping an eye on traffic near it , and any attention towards snooping for it. If anyone knew about it.

Being outside her lodge had to have a reason.
A later recovery after lodge was moved? (We know of stone/rock rings around lodge sites reused , but the deck could be shuffled of personal lodge locations on return?

Or...Was there a natural feature that caught her eye? A spot less digging was required maybe. Or out of reach of soils disturbed by agricultural efforts?
Above the camp area as the cache site was mentioned.
Were there areas or an area the plow avoided there? Was soil so well drained or lacking loam/life it was not planted?
Along side a large rock or boulder (I have no idea what is there) , a plow would miss. Or a deep trough of erosion.(?)

The articles hint that the area around the lodge site was worked deliberately for the cache.
If not missed , as far as disturbing the can , perhaps the can was not in the soil worked?

Gidday releventchair

Some very good constructive points. I know very little about farming.

I know in the UK metal detectorists love detecting plowed fields because it help church up metal objects buried generally out of range of most detectors.

Do farmers plow their fields in the same direction year after year or plow in Alternative directions?

Back in 1915 the locals did not have metal detectors. I suspect if the alleged can of money or if it had existed was not found. However the two newspapers contradict each other with one claiming the son had found some gold in a can?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Another thing John Mitchell is recorded US Indian Census up until 1918 When he seems to disappear from records did he die in 1918 Spanish Flu Epidemic or from something else or just moved away from the tribal lands?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Kanacki and Crow,
Nice finds with the pictures.

Gidday Idahodutch

What really still amazes this rag tag old Crow. Is the most important treasure hunting tool anyone can have is what we are staring into right now.

Years ago back in dark ages before internet research was beset by long tedious periods and libraries and archives. These days a lot of that information is now available with a click of a button. Even for an index typist like me.

I am still blown away I can live on the other side of the planet. I can research ordinary people who have been dead for nearly or some times well over hundred years. Know the names of their family. What property they own Where was born where they died. What they left in a will. Who later owned their property google earth their addresses where they lived. What their children names was and even track their descendants. Their birth death marriges even their high school year book. Even when they have left the country and crossed international border. Hell in most cases I can view the address they once lived in google street view.

I an still amazed and continue to do so researching such legends in what you could find.

Of course it is only part of the equation amigo as it is a hell of a lot bigger when ones ass is out there on the ground. However a diligent research can narrow done the search with boots on the ground.

Crow.

 

[Mackaydon]

Crow, so true.
As Marx once told me: For each dollar I spend doing the research I will save $20 at sea.
Don....

 

[Crow]

Crow, so true.
As Marx once told me: For each dollar I spend doing the research I will save $20 at sea.
Don....

Yes it can save you a lot of grief.

I do not see it productive searching for some thing not fully knowing if it existed or not?

Crow

 

[releventchair]

Gidday releventchair

Some very good constructive points. I know very little about farming.

I know in the UK metal detectorists love detecting plowed fields because it help church up metal objects buried generally out of range of most detectors.

Do farmers plow their fields in the same direction year after year or plow in Alternative directions?

Back in 1915 the locals did not have metal detectors. I suspect if the alleged can of money or if it had existed was not found. However the two newspapers contradict each other with one claiming the son had found some gold in a can?

Crow

The 3/12/1915 article had her son recover a can she gave direction to. Then mentions the earlier (19 years) can cache.

Plowing means turning somewhere.
Not unlike mowing a yard. It depends on where you want to turn and what is on the borders.
there is a tendency but no law , to run the/a field with rows across longest dimension. Reducing number of turns.
BUT , if one wants a crop presented to the sun East-West... Or any other direction , that is to be a consideration by site.

Today less plowing is encouraged where "drilling" seed is possible. Much is gained vs prior erosion ,drying and spraying.
That said , after turning where desired with a plow , comes harrowing or raking to smooth the seed bed. Then seeding , and with small seed followed by cultipacking in given instances. Working across rows is an option in smoothing out clumps and creating a more friable soil.
That can "rake" debris a distance. As can later cultivating.

Researching the gold cans sites region and average plowing depth when ground is broken from being fallow ,or prior to agriculture would go far in guessing depth of plows back then. Crop types and root depths affect soil. Keeping life and live roots can be of benefit. But how did they farm back then?
Tillage focused on tilth matters more than frequent plowing. Plowing can be detrimental. And with most life and value near the surface , that's where the focus of building up soil is best spent. Pulling mineral soil with low value up into loam is not going to help much. But , there are pockets of deep loam. (Good luck buying one...)

Often after initial (can have been plowed years ago) plowing , following seasons can see light tillage using shallower equipment than plows to work in soil amendments into the top few inches of soil. Or even shallower.
Some of that cultivation resembles plowing. But with less depth.
A couple inches stirred up though , can reposition what's in the top layer of soil. Rolling things up. Dragging things along a ways. A coin on edge prior , then knocked flat could seem to have appeared since the prior season.
A button two inches deep bumped with a cultivator tine now on top of a furrow and then rained on , stands out . But didn't last year.
Keeping living roots while still able to rotate crops helps hold soil and positive values. Turning that over....Is part of why the dust bowl era was so severe. Though weather factored. Did unmolested prairie blow away?
Did eroded farm land in the 30's bury caches deeper in the high plains? Or expose prior buried ones?

 

[releventchair]

In the context of 1919 , what powered the plow?
Livestock? If so , how hard did the farmer want to work them and his equipment to hunt a cache , and at what cost would he draw the line?
Steam engine? Then the boiler needed fed and watered. And the flues cleaned of soot . Along with other maintenance requirements.
Again , where to draw the line at time , cost, and effort / labor.
Meanwhile , a farm operations usual duties ,chores, and costs awaits. Add the search efforts cost . measured against remaining enthusiasm after the initial excitement.

The actual size of the area searched by stirring the soil would be interesting to know. A teepee could average 14 foot for a couple individuals , though greater details specific to the area involved likely exist in records. How far beyond did they go? And were there lodges adjacent , or near that were undisturbed beneath? Lodges positioned in the interval between the cache being made nearly two decades earlier , and the present (1915) search period...
And today , who knows the change of depth over the potential cache since....

 

[Phil]

I've elk hunted around Meachum Creek (East of Pendleton), and recall seeing where teepees were (No plant growth in a circle) as well as arrowheads and flint everywhere.

The train runs right through there so it's possible the picture was taken in that area.

 

[GoDeep]

Post deleted and moved to the dents run thread. My apologies, i mistakenly assumed the thread was a generalization about the anatomy of treasure legends, not a specific legend.

 

[Crow]

Post deleted and moved to the dents run thread. My apologies, i mistakenly assumed the thread was a generalization about the anatomy of treasure legends, not a specific legend.

Gidday go deep no apologies needed amigo. I was not clear in my original post. But it is true I am over the dents run saga. As I am trying to avoid it because I will end up saying some thing that will infringe the rules.

Crow

 

[KANACKI]

The 3/12/1915 article had her son recover a can she gave direction to. Then mentions the earlier (19 years) can cache.

Plowing means turning somewhere.
Not unlike mowing a yard. It depends on where you want to turn and what is on the borders.
there is a tendency but no law , to run the/a field with rows across longest dimension. Reducing number of turns.
BUT , if one wants a crop presented to the sun East-West... Or any other direction , that is to be a consideration by site.

Today less plowing is encouraged where "drilling" seed is possible. Much is gained vs prior erosion ,drying and spraying.
That said , after turning where desired with a plow , comes harrowing or raking to smooth the seed bed. Then seeding , and with small seed followed by cultipacking in given instances. Working across rows is an option in smoothing out clumps and creating a more friable soil.
That can "rake" debris a distance. As can later cultivating.

Researching the gold cans sites region and average plowing depth when ground is broken from being fallow ,or prior to agriculture would go far in guessing depth of plows back then. Crop types and root depths affect soil. Keeping life and live roots can be of benefit. But how did they farm back then?
Tillage focused on tilth matters more than frequent plowing. Plowing can be detrimental. And with most life and value near the surface , that's where the focus of building up soil is best spent. Pulling mineral soil with low value up into loam is not going to help much. But , there are pockets of deep loam. (Good luck buying one...)

Often after initial (can have been plowed years ago) plowing , following seasons can see light tillage using shallower equipment than plows to work in soil amendments into the top few inches of soil. Or even shallower.
Some of that cultivation resembles plowing. But with less depth.
A couple inches stirred up though , can reposition what's in the top layer of soil. Rolling things up. Dragging things along a ways. A coin on edge prior , then knocked flat could seem to have appeared since the prior season.
A button two inches deep bumped with a cultivator tine now on top of a furrow and then rained on , stands out . But didn't last year.
Keeping living roots while still able to rotate crops helps hold soil and positive values. Turning that over....Is part of why the dust bowl era was so severe. Though weather factored. Did unmolested prairie blow away?
Did eroded farm land in the 30's bury caches deeper in the high plains? Or expose prior buried ones?

View attachment 1935845

Hola Amigo excellent post.

Kanacki