Alfonso dAlbuquerque / Flor do Mar

[cornelis 816]

Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Here is a map of the position of the wreck of the Flor do Mar . Atleast that is what Marx thought . An expedition by him and some other well known divers delivered nothing at all . Marx never discovered the sinking spot of the Flor . He relied on a map that was drawn many many years later than the actual wrecking of the Flor . This shows again that you cannot always trust old maps . Especially when the shape of the map tells you that the coast was not sufficiently explored . Marx offered materials for sale supposedly from the Flor . This was a misstatement from this man . He never discovered the wreck of the Flor do Mar . He should have gone down more to the South to the area of Daru . The Flor do Mar has never been discovered but I have a good idea where she sank . Cornelius

 

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[LM]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

For the record, I absolutely love your posts.
Thanks for making them.

 

[cornelis 816]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Thanks LS . Little things like your post will keep me going . A few remarks though about my post . Many of you think that Marx is holy . I got news for you . Marx offered Tin ( pewter ) coins for sale as being salvaged from the Flor do Mar . These coins are for sale in quite a few antique stores in Malaysia . Since Marx never salvaged the Flor do Mar , I call this a fraud . If some of you do not agree with my statements I advice to contact Tony Wells to back me up . Tony was there with Marx and has a different story than Marx had . I do not have anything against Marx but I hate people selling stuff which socalled is coming from wreck sites while they pray on the gullability of persons to believe them . Hey ...... check with Tony !!!! Cornelius

 

[VOC]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

With many salvage operations you get different stories about what may or may not of went on, or what or what may or may not have been found or recovered.

Salvors often have to tell different stories for many different reasons to: the funders, host governments, wreck owners, bussiness partners and team members as required throughout the project.

It is not uncommon to have an official expedition or search being conducted in one area, whilst a small team is actually recovering stuff from another.

Some searches are often carried out with the official line being that nothing was found only to be worked by a small team at a latter date.

Just look at what Odessey have to do and say to keep people of the scent of what they are actually doing.

The truth is only a few people will know if any part of the Flo Do Mar has been found.

These two are worth a read:

http://www.ssssllc.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/WDM-Flor-do-Mar-I.pdf
http://www.ssssllc.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/WDM-Flor-do-Mar-II.pdf

 

[DennisB]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Cornelius,

I will always follow your threads because you are a wealth of info and you don't pull your punches. I am still researching the Dry Tortugas. Even Potter doesn't mention them but once in his book.




Dennis

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Oh God.... The Flor de la Mar... Again??

This ship was completely salvaged in the aftermath of the sinking. How do you think the local ruler got so rich suddenly?

There's a ton of documents relating to that wreck in the Portuguese archives, but you people keep on reading old Bob Marx fairy tales (and not reading this forum):


Check this, for an example of such document:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,279413.0.html



and this:


http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,279274.0.html

 

[cornelis 816]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Alexandre. Somebody asked you a question about how you know that the Flor was salvaged . I like to ask you the same question . The Flor sank in an area of the coast of Sumatra ( Aru ) which has a very muddy bottom . This is due to the rivers streaming out into the ocean from the East coast of Sumatra . Even in 24 hours any heavy object would disappearin many feet of soft mud . The vissability is so poor that divers had to work nearly in the dark . When most of the heavy cargo had sunk they could never have salvaged any of it . I still would like to know where you got the information that the Flor was salvaged !!! We should take into consideration that it would be to the benefit of the Portugese to do as if the Flor was salvaged in order to discourage any would be salvors to show up on the wrecksite . Regards Cornelius

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Alexandre. Somebody asked you a question about how you know that the Flor was salvaged . I like to ask you the same question . The Flor sank in an area of the coast of Sumatra ( Aru ) which has a very muddy bottom . This is due to the rivers streaming out into the ocean from the East coast of Sumatra . Even in 24 hours any heavy object would disappearin many feet of soft mud . The vissability is so poor that divers had to work nearly in the dark . When most of the heavy cargo had sunk they could never have salvaged any of it . I still would like to know where you got the information that the Flor was salvaged !!! We should take into consideration that it would be to the benefit of the Portugese to do as if the Flor was salvaged in order to discourage any would be salvors to show up on the wrecksite . Regards Cornelius

Cornelis, just read those documents. They're even online. In them, descriptions made to the Portuguese King tell how the local ruler got rich by salvaging the wreck using local divers.

 

[cornelis 816]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Alexandre . There may have some salvage taken place but certainly not all of the treasure was salvaged . Even part of the cargo may have made the local chief very rich . Like I said ( out of experience ) within 24 hours most of the heavy materials ( be it gold or other ) would have sunk in the thick layer of mud . Cornelius

 

[Salvor6]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

If the local ruler salvaged the Flor, he would be the next King! But there is nho record of that, is there?

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

If the local ruler salvaged the Flor, he would be the next King! But there is nho record of that, is there?

As I said, read the documents. History is made by reading the original documents, not some hype stated by some treasure hunters trying to sell some shares.

Do you have a list of what went down with the Flor de la Mar? No, you don't. Some stuff probably wasn't salvaged, yes, but will whatever is left be enough for a serious treasure hunter to start a venture there? I doubt. Don't forget Robert Sténuit rules for treasure hunting. According to him, successful treasure hunters must manage to:

1. Find reliable information about a valuable cargo shipped in a particular vessel that sunk;

2. Make sure that the cargo was actually loaded on that particular vessel;

3. Make sure that the ship did sink (beached ships were invariably salvaged);

4. Make sure that the cargo was not unloaded on a port before the shipwreck took place;

5. Make sure that the cargo was not saved (transshipped) right before the shipwreck;

6. Make sure that the cargo was not jettisoned right before the shipwreck;

7. Make sure that the cargo was not salvaged immediately after the shipwreck;

8. Make sure that the cargo was not salvaged at a later date;

9. Make sure that time did not damage the cargo;

10. Make sure there are no claims on the shipwreck or its cargo;

11. Make sure he has precise data to narrow the place where the shipwreck occurred;

12. Find the shipwreck (often the most difficult part);

13. Make sure that he actually found that particular shipwreck;

14. If he ever finds anything, make sure that the cargo is not spilled over too large an area;

15. Make sure that treasure hunting is legal, or at least that the local authorities are cooperative;

16. Make sure the country in whose waters the shipwreck lays is politically stable;

17. Make sure he has all the necessary means to salvage a substantial part of the cargo;

18. Make sure he gets away with destroying, or abandoning all non valuable items, which consume time and money, and are not accepted for sale by most auction houses;

19. Make sure he has safe port to disembark the cargo;

20. Make sure he has a good lawyer;

21. Make sure he has not spent by now much more money than he can make with the sale of valuable artifacts.

 

[Luisportal]

Hi.
The right name is FROL DE LA MAR , and not Flor
The wreck is at 23 meters depht
Luis Portal

 

[ARC]

She was a ship laden with problems...
Risky from design/day one...
No one in their right mind would have loaded it with treasure knowing this ship...
This IMO has been... and seems to have remained... a "cover-up" of a theft... errr shall I say... an "alleged" theft"...

She was a patsy... a martyr... Meant to be retired and salvaged within three years...
They knew this...
The ship made basic transports... and would have never used for serious treasures...
Anyone on the docks locks would have known this... and she would have been deemed "too risky" knowing her history.
she only completed one run EVER... and barely at that.

Twas a perfect convenient patsy ship as well... a ship that would easily sink when over burdened...
Was an "easy haul"... just blame the ship.
All one need do is make the switch and start the ball rolling by thieves to cover a theft.
The "hush money" payments are seen as "wealth increases" of certain key players as stated at the time.

But you can rest assured that no treasure was on board that night before sail...
Treasure was said to have been aboard... but never was... OR removed prior to weighing anchor.

Marx found another ship... OR actually found the Frol...and hence... no treasure.

The Frol did have one thing "going for it"... the name... Perfect legend material.

This is just my opinion of course... Spun from a "shipwrecked knack" of "something is a miss"... common sense... and logic.

 

[bottom10]

Re: Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Alexandre . There may have some salvage taken place but certainly not all of the treasure was salvaged . Even part of the cargo may have made the local chief very rich . Like I said ( out of experience ) within 24 hours most of the heavy materials ( be it gold or other ) would have sunk in the thick layer of mud . Cornelius

my opinion as well? they only thing saving some of the cargo would be that it sunk in the mud......otherwise all else would have been salvaged, one account says the ship hit a flat black rock causing the sinking? has anyone found this flat black rock?. ive stood on top of it............its big and just a few feet above the water...........easily hidden by rough seas. theres alot of research missed when looking for this wreck............what about the eyewitness testimony..........what did he do years after the sinking...........? did he return years later and salvage what he could............Yes..........didnt get it all because alot of it sank deep into the mud. there alot to this story............research research and more research.

 

[bottom10]

Alfonso d'Albuquerque / Flor do Mar

Here is a map of the position of the wreck of the Flor do Mar . Atleast that is what Marx thought . An expedition by him and some other well known divers delivered nothing at all . Marx never discovered the sinking spot of the Flor . He relied on a map that was drawn many many years later than the actual wrecking of the Flor . This shows again that you cannot always trust old maps . Especially when the shape of the map tells you that the coast was not sufficiently explored . Marx offered materials for sale supposedly from the Flor . This was a misstatement from this man . He never discovered the wreck of the Flor do Mar . He should have gone down more to the South to the area of Daru . The Flor do Mar has never been discovered but I have a good idea where she sank . Cornelius

the X marks the spot map was drawn 80 years after the sinking.

 

[Magoopeter]

FROL DE LA MAR, was there another wreck of the same name, of Africa,

 

[bottom10]

the X marks the spot map was drawn 80 years after the sinking.

yes i have that map and consider it unreliable simply because it was drawn 80 yrs after the fact, ive stood on a flat back rock reported that frol hit and caused it to eventually sink............its nowhere near the x marks to spot map, ive met mr Marxs in singapore on 2 occasions and the outcome wasnt good, he also tried to muscle hiw way in on the Dianna project and Dorian wasnt havent it.

 

[bottom10]

my opinion as well? they only thing saving some of the cargo would be that it sunk in the mud......otherwise all else would have been salvaged, one account says the ship hit a flat black rock causing the sinking? has anyone found this flat black rock?. ive stood on top of it............its big and just a few feet above the water...........easily hidden by rough seas. theres alot of research missed when looking for this wreck............what about the eyewitness testimony..........what did he do years after the sinking...........? did he return years later and salvage what he could............Yes..........didnt get it all because alot of it sank deep into the mud. there alot to this story............research research and more research.

salvage DID take place..........the eyewitness who was an Italian merchant and arch enemy of albuquerque returned 3 years later to set up a post in indonesia did return to the site.............did they slavage all of it? i doubt it.

 

[JT]

Haven’t seen a post by Cornelius in many years, seeing this post resurrected brings up memories of him posting, just like the resurrected old thread that had posts by the late Dell Winders.

Anyone know if Cornelius is still with us, or has he passed over the bar?