Rebel - KGC
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My guess is that the 10 that came back were "local men" of Upper Goose Creek Valley, in Bedford County... dunno.
Rebel - KGC
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AND THEN! TJB & 2 others went on to Lynchburg, Va. TJB took a room in Robert MORRIS's HOME, Washington Inn/House & the 2 others continued to their "homes" in the Richmond, Va. "area".
franklin
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There is a problem with all of this, I can see selling the oxen and carts but why sell the horses. Is that exactly what the ad stated or are you changing the words around. I can't see selling the horses and then buying more horses for the return trip to St. Louis. Why would they have horses and oxen? If the ten men drove the wagons there would only be one horse? If I were going back I would take the overland stage through Kingsport, Tennessee and on to the Mississippi River. They could take four or five days and take separate stages and still make it to St. Louis without horses, carts or oxen. Then they could purchase horses in St. Louis ride to the mines and then go to the mines and later Sante Fe to get oxen and carts again.
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Old Silver
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It said WORK horses, so they would have been used in the same way as oxen. That would make a team of oxen and one work horse for every cart, with a couple of work horses as spares. Who knows if they also had riding horses or not, but I would guess they had at least one, IF this was the Beale party. And like you said, they might have taken a stage back as far as they could. In that case, maybe they either didn't have a riding horse, or else sold it. But I would think it more probable that the two extra work horses was ridden by one man (Beale?), and the other was led behind to use if needed. Who knows how it went, but I think all this is too coincidental to ignore.
Note: Would a work horse be used with a team of oxen, or maybe pulled behind the cart? Maybe every cart had a work horse behind.
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Old Silver
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The point is, there were 10 carts and 10 teams of work animals for sale. How many men would it take, at minimum, to operate this? 10. That's the number of men that went back with Beale. And WHERE were these teams and carts sold? Lynchburg. That's the place where Beale and the 10 men went to. And WHEN were these teams and carts put up for sale? In DEC. of 1819. That is JUST AFTER the 1st deposit made by Beale and his 10 men. It all seems to fit.
ECS
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Bigscoop did post a good question that was never properly answered.
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Old Silver
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The answer to scoop's question is answered by the context of the thread.
"You know how many oxen and ox carts the Beale party used, or that they even used oxen and ox carts?"
I have not said that Beale and company used oxen and ox carts, therefore, the question is moot. I have posted about an ad that had animals and carts for sale, the number of which matched perfectly with what is said in the Beale papers, and at the times mentioned in the Beale papers, and at the place mentioned in the Beale papers. That makes this a POSSIBILITY for being the Beale group. You can know this by reading the thread from start to finish.
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Old Silver
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There is a theory that Beale may have loaned money to Morriss and that may have been what the receipts in the box were about? I don't know if this theory is true, but I do know that before Beale arrived in Lynchburg on his 2nd trip (1822), Morriss put up his furniture for sale. Then, just a few days after Beale arrived in (1822),Morriss retracted the ad. This was immediately after the 2nd (last) deposit of treasure (if true), which was December 1821. Just a few days later, Beale was back in Lynchburg, sending a letter to Morriss, dated January 4th, 1822 Lynchburg. This was the same day Morriss had put the ad in the paper to sell his furniture. Then on the 11th, 18th and 25th, Morriss advertised the retraction of the sale. In just those few days after Beale arrived, SOMETHING happened that allowed Morriss to keep his furniture, and that is a matter of record. If the treasure did exist, no one would have been more able to loan money to Robert Morris than Thomas Beale. Maybe it was an advance against Morriss' cut. Possibly this could be the reason for Morriss agreeing to keep the box. Clearly something had suddenly put money in the hands of Morriss, and it was just when Beale arrived, on which trip the agreement was made between the two men concerning the box.
Robert Morriss was losing his "house of entertainment," as he called it, for he said in the retraction that he was letting his friends, and the general public know that he was now able to keep it open.
Robert Morriss was losing his "house of entertainment," as he called it, for he said in the retraction that he was letting his friends, and the general public know that he was now able to keep it open.
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Old Silver
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This might not be anything, but I'll put it out there.
In the ad mentioned above, where Robert Morriss was forced to sell his furniture and other possessions, one of the things he was offering for sale was "A GOOD WORKHORSE." I want to know, what in the world would an Innkeeper in a city be doing with a workhorse? Could it be one that Beale had brought from out west, on his 1st trip to Lynchburg in late 1819? I'm just wondering, that's all.
In the ad mentioned above, where Robert Morriss was forced to sell his furniture and other possessions, one of the things he was offering for sale was "A GOOD WORKHORSE." I want to know, what in the world would an Innkeeper in a city be doing with a workhorse? Could it be one that Beale had brought from out west, on his 1st trip to Lynchburg in late 1819? I'm just wondering, that's all.
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Old Silver
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One thing is proved. Robert Morriss did indeed have a house of entertainment at the time the Beale papers say he did.
In the retraction of the ad for the sale of his furniture, Morris says:
NOTICE. THe above sale of goods will not take place as is advertised. The subscriber avails himself of this opportunity to inform his friends and the public generally that he still continues open his House of Entertainment, for the accommodation of Travelers and Boarders, and pledges himself that nothing will be wanting on his part to render those who may call upon him as comfortable as possible. Robert Morriss.
In the retraction of the ad for the sale of his furniture, Morris says:
NOTICE. THe above sale of goods will not take place as is advertised. The subscriber avails himself of this opportunity to inform his friends and the public generally that he still continues open his House of Entertainment, for the accommodation of Travelers and Boarders, and pledges himself that nothing will be wanting on his part to render those who may call upon him as comfortable as possible. Robert Morriss.
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Only thoughts, no great conviction on my part.
Oxen are s l o w.
Their shoes need regular attention.
Any stock used for work need greater feeding ( grain horses or see weight drop) and ten oxen ,or horses means hauling a lot of feed ,or depending on quality forage each night , without stock wandering off.
Or...attracting attention at stops buying livery space.
A team of oxen at prime age come with a prime price. No less than the best for such distance.
Horses ,for a working team can be a different creature than a saddle horse. Either can be switched ,but big difference in results.
A team would be better for more weight on a stronger wagon....or would more wagons with pairs of horses?
Wagons needed maintained too.
So who did the farrier work?
Anyway a horse listed for sale from a hotel not too shocking if it's life was tugging a supply wagon or buggy related to the hotel or similar work all it' s life.
A bigger frame/ bone structure ,and bigger feet. Not a race horse but an endurance type. Trained to harness rather than saddle.
Such facilities may have had a riding horse or more but likely more personal type possessions with further use.
Were it me in the story ( and it is not) I'd have used horses for easier grazing,picketing at night, replacing while traveling by trading them out if need be.
Use harness type for two wagons with no more than half capacity of one wagon ( total between the two ,in case one team or wagon failed) and a saddle horse for each party member plus at least two spares .Poor feed would complicate things after a week perhaps sooner.
Without fresh ( well fed and properly rested and watered stock) to rotate ,delay likely to result too often.
A big issue when shopping...why would anyone sell you a good horse? ( Even if you're a hospitable hotel owner.)
Legends exist about horsetrading.
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Old Silver
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Valid points, but I think of all the travels that have been made in the past, and was done successfully. No doubt they all had hardships. I see nothing in the supposed Beale travels (excluding the treasure) that's any more unlikely than any other such travel from days past. The trip would not have been accomplished quickly by any mode of transportation of that day.
As far as the price of oxen, etc., the men of the Beale party were said to be men who could afford the expedition. And if the story is true, they would have needed the animals only because they had found treasure, so I don't think costs would have been a problem.
So who did the farrier work? Who knows. But the same could be asked of all expeditions, even the ones we know happened.
You do bring up a good point about the workhorse of Morriss possibly being used to carry goods for the operation of the house of entertainment. That's probably correct.
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Old Silver
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To further speculate, if Beale did loan money to Robert Morriss, to keep him from having to sell his furniture and close his house of entertainment, then what might Morriss have used as collateral? The most obvious guess would be the furniture itself, since that is what was being sold in the first place. Is there any supporting evidence that suggests this furniture was held in trust of a debt to Beale? Yes, there is, but remember, I said SUGGESTS.
In 1846, one year after Morriss opened the iron box, Sarah's nephew, Daniel J. Warwick, purchased Morriss' household furniture for $683.62. In turn, Daniel loaned the furniture back to Sarah for her use until called for. Did Morriss hold the furniture until he learned for sure that his debt to Beale was no longer? Possibly. Why else would Beale leave receipts with Morriss, unless they had something to do with him? And Morriss did say the receipts had nothing to do with the treasure.
In 1846, one year after Morriss opened the iron box, Sarah's nephew, Daniel J. Warwick, purchased Morriss' household furniture for $683.62. In turn, Daniel loaned the furniture back to Sarah for her use until called for. Did Morriss hold the furniture until he learned for sure that his debt to Beale was no longer? Possibly. Why else would Beale leave receipts with Morriss, unless they had something to do with him? And Morriss did say the receipts had nothing to do with the treasure.
franklin
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To answer your question, you would need to look in the December, 1821 newspaper to see if the same amount of animals and carts were sold again? Could have been some farmer selling out after the Depression of 1819?
As for there being work horses and oxen is understandable especially on their first trip as they most likely purchased them in Sante Fe or from traveling Fur Hunters. Anyway that may have been all they could procure in such a wild environment? But it is interesting.
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Rebel - KGC
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Dunno... sounds like TJB & 2 others going to L'burg, Va. had only "riding horses"; the wagons & "extra" stuff may have been sold in Montvale/Buford's/Upper Goose Creek "area".
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What was common at the time..may not have raised an eyebrow.
That was a lot of stock in the add. They had to be put up somewhere ,or on a property suitable.
Credibility may have mattered to buyers avoiding acquiring stolen stock.
If trying to be low key ( not the case in the add) the wagons and animals could have been divided up among party members to sell piecemeal.
Was add by a private party , or an outfit that had a business of such dealings?
Had the party sold it to a business that dealt in such things there would perhaps have been a record.
Many records are gone ,but places dealing in the buggy/ wagon and or stock trade in the Lynch burgh locale might have been noted somewhere.
A private party offering the items would have either endured livery costs ,or involved a party member or associates ranch near sale add.(?)
10 an eye catcher number though!
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Old Silver
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Yeah, there's a lot of research to be done. And so little time. And I agree, it could have simply been a local farmer selling his animals. Nothing is certain here, but it is interesting how that so many things seem to fit together.
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Old Silver
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I'd say they did have riding horses. The ad was placed in a Lynchburg paper, but the animals and carts could have been taken anywhere, until someone showed interest in buying them.
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Old Silver
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Franklin mentioned a depression of 1819. In times like that, the sale of these animals and carts would likely not seem odd.
There's a lot of unanswered questions. The seller/s are unidentified, so there's no way to know if the animals were put in the hands of someone else.
The animals and carts could have been taken anywhere until interest was shown in buying them. Rebel seems to think that some of the men was from Goose Creek, and probably took the teams there when Beale and the two went to visit Morriss. Lot's of unanswered questions.
ECS
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Do you have a link for these Lynchburg newspaper ads?
The University of Florida does have the LYNCHBURG PRESS weekly on microfilm, ALL BUT the December 1819 issue you mentioned.
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