About the San Roque 1605s Tierra Firme armada.

[Chagy]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Well

How do we know that Zacarias was telling the truth? and even if he was, how do we know that it was the "San Roque" I read Claudios book and it never mentions the involvement of the French.

Claudio,

The information in your book came from AGI....right?

All the best,

Chagy......

 

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[Claudio]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Chagy, in the page 80 of my book I mention the two French. One called Julian and the other Nicolás.
In a first moment the story can be invented, but at the end, Zacarias, already free, he associates with another Flamish, Diego Mercado. Would not make sense this association for a matter of a treasure that didn't exist.
Approximately for 1662 was interested the marquis of Aytona, to kind of minister in Spain and big enthusiast of sea matters. Aytona was so that gave order to Gaspar de los Reyes to look for the "Mysterious Island found by Simón Zacarias." Here also doesn't make sense that a minister is interested for something without foundation.
My personal opinion is that it is necessary to undertake an exhaustive survey to know the truth.
I found the information in severals archives.
A Franch told me that in the archive of the Navy in Paris there is a document that says that a buccaneer Swan left buried a treasure in an uninhabited island. Will be Swan island?

 

[Panfilo]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

I haven't had the pleasure of reading Claudios new book and I'm very much looking forward to receiving a copy of this compendium I sent for from Spain. In my very modest research I have done over the years it is my personal opinion that Zacarias was a pathological lier (in spanish "mitomano") who used his tales to get out of jail, which he did with great success. The contradictions in his story are evident but then again I would not challenge such a learned researcher as Sr. Bonifacio (until I've read his book, of course!). My question Claudio is if you still believe one of the Luis Fernandez de Cordoba wrecks was lying in the Bay of Asuncion, north of Belize in Mexican waters as I read in your most interesting web page some years ago? I think I have a copy of that research of yours that caused much commotion in Mexico at the time and I have spoken with fishermen locally who assured me that bronce cannons have in fact been found there.Is this also in your book?

 

[Claudio]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Panfilo, more than lying Zacarias was afraid. To be pirate and heretic took to the fork. In the first declarations in Trujillo, several witness said that Zacarias was voluntarily with the Spaniards, escaping from the Englishmen (in certain way, these Spaniards defend it). Undoubtedly that he said to know the whereabouts of a rich galleon and a buried treasure, it was a reason so that it continued alive.
Another indication is the fact that he affirms to have navigated with the general Luis Fajardo's armada in 1601. That's true, because his fleet returned from Indies in 1602 (page 81 of my book).
Already tired of looking for the island and crossing out Zacarias as a liar (but never losing the hope that the story was genuine), finally Zacarias is free. If the Spanish authorities of Guatemala left him free this means that they continued believing in that story, in another way they had executed him for pirate and heretic.
About the Bay of Asunción, Francisco Núñez Melian, the fortunate that recovered part of the Santa Margarita 1622 lost galleon, he received a letter fron Juan Contreras warned that in this bay there was a galleon to try to recover the cargo. In another writing it is not discarded that it is one of those that got lost in 1605. Later on I looked for more information, but I have not been able to find nothing else about this shipwreck.
In 1996 I traveled to Mexico and indeed, a fisherman of the place told me that he had news of a "galleon" lost in the bay.
To complete the "mystery" of the Mysterious island and 1605's galleons, in 1629, the captain Francisco Calderón, when requesting a grace says that coming embarked in one of the galleons of the fleet of Luis Fernandez de Cordoba, it shipwrecked losing all his money and surviving with a boat, where it reached the island of Cuba.
This is the only existent news of a survivor of the four missing galleons. Zacarias surprisingly also says that after having been gone of the island of the treasure with the other two French, they arrived in Cuba, where it was captured by English pirates.
I'm sorry to mistreat the beautiful English language in my messages.

 

[Panfilo]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Claudio, it has allways puzled me that a great scholar and authority on galleons that I once had the oportunity of speaking with briefly and with whom you are very familiar with (he acknoledges your valuable contribution and friendship in his "Naufragios" book), Fernando Serrano Mangas, states bluntly that the 4 Fernandez de Cordoba were sunk "in the coast of Cumana, close to Isla Margarita (today Venezuela)" ? Where he came up with that far fetched location has always been a matter of curiosity for me.

 

[Admiral de Salee]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

I'm not a researcher, and I just want to understand what everyone in this topic is saying.

What I'm getting is that nobody (in this thread) thinks any of the 4 Cordoba ships wrecked near the Serranilla Banks?

 

[old man]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Admiral,

There is research that states that floating debris from at least one of the lost ships was infact seen floating near the Banks after the Hurricane. I'll look up the quote and post it later today.

 

[Claudio]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

panfilo, the captain Cesareo Fernandez Duro wrote, in 9 volumes, Armada española (Spanish Armada) that is the history of maritime Spain from 1492 up to 1894. In the third volume, page 488, when giving a list of shipwrecks, he says that indeed 4 galleons of Luis de Córdoba got lost in 1604 in Serranilla bank. Unfortunately, like it was then habit, the historians didn't mention the primary source of information.
This information has two errors: the first one is that disappeared in November 1605, not 1604. The second, it is an opinion of Fernandez Duro the lost in Serranilla, because the documents of the time only say that they were seen for last time in this place, but navigating toward west. Fernandez Duro forged the legend of the lost in Serranilla, but was without any foundation. Others followed his example and copied the same information.
In this same page he mentions again other 4 galleons of Luis de Cordoba lost in Cumana (Venezuela). Why? From 1612 there is a document directed to Tomas Cardona so that it will recover these four galleons "lost near Cumana."
Fernando Serrano reported this mistake.
And finally, FD mentions again these galleons lost in 1606.

 

[Panfilo]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Claudio, the first thing that made me wonder about the veracity of Zacarias' story is when he starts talking about gold mining in Isla Misteriosa. I am a mining engineer and that is what I do for a living and believe I've heard my share of stories but this one tops them all: "...said island is 3 leagues east to west and 5 wide and has 3 hills from which 3 streams flow to the sea with fresh water, one in a n-s direction in the north coast and the other two (streams) from east to west also in the north coast and flow to the sea, and one of them carries much gold the one from the higher hill because he who is making this deposition was there one day and washed 4 pounds of 16 ounces in little more than half a day. Walking up this stream I discovered gold minerals in veins two fingers wide and one of the frenchmen that was with me, who stated he was a miner, said it was the greatest richness he had ever seen.." Not very realistic from a mining standpoint and bordering in fantasyland. This pirate from Antwerp escapes execution because he was a great storyteller who like everybody in his time had heard of the Cordoba 1605 disappearance and capitalices on it. But to think anybody will find in half a day a placer mine and a gold vein depositthe the likes of which few people have seen and has since disappeared from the annals of geology is very very difficult to believe.
I think the whole story is summarized here: in 1616 "... Zacarias states that the Treasure Island is 70 leagues from the island of Guanaja on 18 degrees to which he will gladly go if given a frigate because he remembers the location very well and will not get lost..." This fascinating story starts in 1616 and ends 3 years later with zero results . In the last trip after many many fruitless months of searching Zacarias finally admits: ".. as the decision to steer was given to Simon (Zacarias), he informs that though he had declared that he had been in the island, he had not seen it but that he had heard of it from a "flamenco" 3 or 4 days before he died and that later he had seen it painted in a map of a Dutch pilot which he took for certain. Then confronted to state this before a notary (escribano) and witnesses he denied it and only said that he had been on an island and that he had found the treasure stated and that he did not know where it was or what to do." Not a very credible witness in my very personal view but as I said earlier Claudio is the expert so I will wait to read the book!

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

To further 'stir the pot', I'll repeat the gist of an earlier entry I made on another related thread. In 1690, the English sent the 5th rated "Drake" from Jamaica to the Serranillas to protect an English salvage operation of a 'rich galleon' from Frenchmen and their vessals that were 'interferring' with the English salvors. I went to Kew to find the log for that year of the Drake; it isn't there; reported by Kew as 'missing'.
Don...

 

[Chagy]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

To further 'stir the pot', I'll repeat the gist of an earlier entry I made on another related thread. In 1690, the English sent the 5th rated "Drake" from Jamaica to the Serranillas to protect an English salvage operation of a 'rich galleon' from Frenchmen and their vessals that were 'interferring' with the English salvors. I went to Kew to find the log for that year of the Drake; it isn't there; reported by Kew as 'missing'.
Don...

Jack Haskins also went to Kew to look for it and didnt find it.

Chagy.........

 

[old man]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

I know more about that then I can tell for now. Just to stir the pot.

 

[Claudio]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Panfilo, I am not expert in mines, but Zacarias said that they found nuggets of gold and he doesn't speak of veins.
About the description of the island, doesn't correspond because if he counted how was the Spaniards understood that it was Serranilla and its life was this way in danger (this it's my supposition). I insist, in 1621, that is to say, five years after the beginning of the story, Zacarias (already free) signed with Diego Mercado a capitulation to go to the island. Then there are no longer more hints.
This story is amazing and only an exhaustive survey will be able to take off of doubts. A question? Why in a map of 1971 there is a mine marked in Great Swan? I asked in Tegucigalpa (Honduran Institute of Mines) and nobody knew how to give me explanations. Guano as said Don?

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

Claudio:
The mine itself may have been a phosphate mine, the product was then processed into fertilizer.
Don....

 

[Salvor6]

Re: About the San Roque 1605's Tierra Firme armada.

I just had a talk with a professional wreck salvor who said the San Roque is located in West End Bahamas. He found it in 1968 and still has some lead sheathing and some silver bars from the wreck. He had a permit to excavate another wreck that he claims was identified as the Santo Domingo from the same fleet. He worked the wreck until the moratorium about 5 years ago. He said this is where Burt Webber and Jack Haskins are concentrating their efforts.