A GUIDE TO VAULT TREASURE HUNTING (Condensed)

[ill1]

the Jesuits were in missouri also and i will one day show u their horde.they were there as early as 1622.

 

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[Mother Superior]

Hmmm, why be so angry? If you read my posts carefully, you'll note that I totally agree that there are genuine caches hidden in the Southwest. I'm only voicing my opinions of who owns the caches, where they are generally located and how useful the apparent nearby signs are for finding them. When I point out facts about these things (that you can research for yourselves), especially about the deception and fraud associated with many of the legends and those who promote them, you get mad at me. Perhaps you're actually getting mad at yourselves for wasting time on beliefs that are bogus. Since this is a public forum, opposing opinions are allowed. If you don't wish to hear what I have to say, put me on IGNORE - it doesn't bother me and won't get you so upset.

Some people will spend their life following a legend I may find laughable, yet do you see me puting them down?
When I don't understand or disagree with a group of people who are not violent, hateful or dangerous in any manner, I usually to try to leave them alone.
Justify your behaviour all you want, it all comes down to a very simple principle: here, we are benefiting from Sandy1's knowledge and experience, not arguing about their veracity.
Thank you.

 

[cyzak]

I do not believe any one here is angry at all I have been real nice to you and so have all the others show some respect.

 

[sandy1]

The real question for the naysayers when it comes to people talking about treasure on a treasure hunting website is this:

why are the naysayers so concerned about people being given bad information by me or others on here, are they appointing themselves the protectors of people from getting scammed?

I don't think I have ever heard of anybody devoting years of their lives just to constantly try and disprove other peoples knowledge or thoughts.

In my mind I would think they have their own personal motives and I very much doubt it has anything to do with protecting everybody on here from getting scammed.(more like protecting the treasures from you guys who want to find them)

 

[mdog]

Mike is an excellent poster, and along with Oroblanco (Roy), a staunch apologist for the treasure magazine versions of "Jesuit caches" in Arizona. Both guys back their arguments with historical - or at least dogmatic - supporting points of view. I admit it's clear that the Jesuits likely operated a handful of productive silver mines in Arizona, yes - enough to be able to manufacture shiny bling for their missions and accumulate some trade money for their day-to-day operations. Yes, a few of these shallow surface workings were later located and mined by Anglos. Yes, silver-bearing slag was discovered at some of the missions (although it has never been clear if this was the result of Jesuit work or the later Franciscans after the Jesuits were expelled in 1767).

Were these mines "exceedingly rich"? Depends on your point of view. One could make a very strong argument that all newly discovered mines were exceedingly rich to begin with, or else they wouldn't have been bothered with. Look at the history of mining in the west. Most mines were discovered by rich surface outcroppings that pinched out rather quickly. A few had long lives, most didn't. Today's mining is different, but we're talking about the old days. Whereas the Jesuits' activities in South America and Mexico indicate the supposed documentation of large recoveries of mineral wealth, there has not been any indication of similar gold and silver mining success in Arizona - by Jesuits, Anglos or anyone else. The Arizona mines were nowhere as rich (other than copper) as what was found - and is still being found - in SA and MX. Yes, Mike provided possible explanations of where all the phantom money supposedly went, but it's just pure speculation.

Yes, we have stories of "Jesuit cache" recoveries - the Quinn recovery, the "Kino bars" find and Kenworthy's supposed silver find. The Quinn recovery was shown to have originally belonged to a rich Mexican rancher protecting his stash from Villa's revolutionistas. The Kino bars were proven by antiquities forensics to be a modern fraud. Likewise, Kenworthy's claims were unsubstantiated. It's all discussed in depth in the numerous Jesuit threads if you have the gumption to read through them. Facts often dash hopes, but I guess you don't have to believe reality if you don't want to.

Point 5 of Post #1926 asks the most important question for "treasure hunters" - if the Jesuits hid vast hoards of gold and silver in AZ, why would anyone assume that in the past 200 years, they did not recover them? Mike's fallback positions on this throughout these lengthy threads have been, primarily, either that the Jesuits forgot where they hid the loot, or they were incapable of recovering it. These are convenient excuses, but those dogs don't hunt for me.

The bottom line for me (your mileage may vary): The Jesuits did some modest mining in AZ. IMO, the richness of the mines and the sizes of the caches have been greatly exaggerated, as all legends are, as time goes by. If the Jesuits left anything behind, it was most likely humble - candlesticks, vestments, some small silver trade items, etc. If it had been major, they would already have recovered it. Arizona's mineral deposits, other than copper, are small potatoes compared to SA and MX.

The debate about Jesuit mining isn't what caught my attention. I learn a lot when you and Mike and Oro compare research on that subject. I was interested in the blue box, at the end of his post, and the information it contained about the nation of origin for many of the Jesuits and how it might fit in with my area of interest. I won't explain why I think the post might be interesting to the readers of this thread, they'll figure it out.

I've enjoyed this thread but I must admit that there are many questions that I haven't asked because I feel uneasy about being accused of being a member of some sinister group, if I ask the wrong question or make a comment that is deemed inappropriate or disrespectful to the author of the thread.

 

[sandy1]

There is only one question that is always the wrong question on here and that is Prove it, which really means:

lets see what you have found (I already showed the Gold bar in my avatar and explained how it was found which obviously is not enough)

Lets see where You have found it (I have shown a actual man made shaft with wedged rocks that were plugged in it, again not enough)

Lets see you holding the treasure while standing in the excavated tunnel with GPS Coordinates (of course that is enough to get the idiot who does it put away for a good long time, which I am sure there are some on here that are really looking forward to me being that idiot)

 

[cyzak]

mdog you have to look at some of these individuals they have been on this forum for some 20 years and you can see what there mission is its not hard to figure out they may change there handle but still the same person with the same mission.

 

[mdog]

mdog you have to look at some of these individuals they have been on this forum for some 20 years and you can see what there mission is its not hard to figure out they may change there handle but still the same person with the same mission.

Nobody can stop you from looking for treasure. Maybe you don't agree with the information somebody offers, or even the manner in which it is offered, but treasure hunting, especially in the wilderness, is a very risky endeavor and you should look at everything offered, before you risk your life. Please don't take this as a lecture, it's just my opinion.

 

[sandy1]

Nobody can stop you from looking for treasure. Maybe you don't agree with the information somebody offers, or even the manner in which it is offered, but treasure hunting, especially in the wilderness, is a very risky endeavor and you should look at everything offered, before you risk your life. Please don't take this as a lecture, it's just my opinion.

Obviously you have not ran into all the government agencies who most definitely can and do stop you from treasure hunting as well as can confiscate your equipment, either that or your not talking about vault treasure hunting.

 

[sdcfia]

The debate about Jesuit mining isn't what caught my attention. I learn a lot when you and Mike and Oro compare research on that subject. I was interested in the blue box, at the end of his post, and the information it contained about the nation of origin for many of the Jesuits and how it might fit in with my area of interest. I won't explain why I think the post might be interesting to the readers of this thread, they'll figure it out.

I've enjoyed this thread but I must admit that there are many questions that I haven't asked because I feel uneasy about being accused of being a member of some sinister group, if I ask the wrong question or make a comment that is deemed inappropriate or disrespectful to the author of the thread.

Don't worry dog - you're not a Sentinel or a Gman. All threads on TNet are owned by TNet, none by the thread's originator, and are open to questioning posts by the public. Otherwise, this would be a blog site. This thread has occasionally wandered into different areas as TNet threads often do, although the discussion is still on track, IMO - treasure caches and who created them.

Mike's blue box was posted to try to establish a Jesuit origin for the Quinn recovery. But the interesting part for me was the Jesuit-Portuguese and Jesuit-Spanish associations mentioned. The Portuguese and Spanish were certainly not friendly but the Jesuits exploited both sides. Not to mention the Jesuit-French presence in today's USA at the time. Of course the Spanish and French were also not friendly, and the Jesuits also manipulated both of these sides to accomplish their own goals. Then you have the Franciscans, first into the USA, who kept New Mexico to themselves, later excluding the Jesuits. Interesting stuff. I'm not quite sure where your specific thoughts fall into the mix.

 

[sdcfia]

mdog you have to look at some of these individuals they have been on this forum for some 20 years and you can see what there mission is its not hard to figure out they may change there handle but still the same person with the same mission.

Use all the information available to you, then follow your own inner compass and what works for you. Good luck, be careful and have fun.

 

[Secret squirl]

I have a compass question. I use the same compass as you Sandy, and I have been having some odd things happen. I started to think the needle was contacting the degree ring. It would appear to stop quickly as if was dragging. I would tap on the side and I could get it to move to +/- 3 degrees or so. I opened it up and tweaked the needle a little and it seemed to function without issue. I went back to re verify some measurements. All of a sudden all my things were not adding up. I tapped on the compass again. Again it appeared to have the same issue. I popped off the glass to tweak the needle again and discovered it moved as I got near it. I had my glasses hanging from my collar and thought maybe somehow they were magnetized. (they are not) I made sure I had nothing with a magnet on my person and moved my hand near the compass, same deal. Then I thought maybe my breathing or wind was affecting it since the glass was off. I held my breath, same deal. I replaced the glass after being sure the needle was not in any way contacting the degree wheel. Smae result. If I leaned near the compass or put my finger near it, I could affect the needle. I tried it this morning, and i cannot affect the needle. I am starting to believe it has to do with where I was standing. Have you experienced anything like this? I have read that others have had issues with compasses at certain locations also. A vortex? Magnetic anomaly?

 

[sandy1]

I have never had my compass be inaccurate unless I was near something very magnetic, just remember that the crisscross spot should be aligned with two boulders etc. I for the most part use the Compass so I can lay out everything on CAD.

 

[mdog]

Don't worry dog - you're not a Sentinel or a Gman. All threads on TNet are owned by TNet, none by the thread's originator, and are open to questioning posts by the public. Otherwise, this would be a blog site. This thread has occasionally wandered into different areas as TNet threads often do, although the discussion is still on track, IMO - treasure caches and who created them.

Mike's blue box was posted to try to establish a Jesuit origin for the Quinn recovery. But the interesting part for me was the Jesuit-Portuguese and Jesuit-Spanish associations mentioned. The Portuguese and Spanish were certainly not friendly but the Jesuits exploited both sides. Not to mention the Jesuit-French presence in today's USA at the time. Of course the Spanish and French were also not friendly, and the Jesuits also manipulated both of these sides to accomplish their own goals. Then you have the Franciscans, first into the USA, who kept New Mexico to themselves, later excluding the Jesuits. Interesting stuff. I'm not quite sure where your specific thoughts fall into the mix.

Hi Sdc. It was the Jesuit/Portuguese connection that caught my attention. You have seen my posts about the Crypto Jews in the southwest, there were also a lot of Crypto Jews in Portugal. There were Converso Jews who were allowed in the new Jesuit order and this got me to, one more time, consider the possibilities of a smuggling operation conducted by people with no allegiance to the Spanish King or the Pope. Mike's article also got me to thinking that even if the Jesuits had no mines, they had other sources of income that could be paid for in silver coin, or gold. It could then be smuggled north, out of Mexico in the form of bars formed out of melted coin. I also liked his idea that church time was different than human lifespan, when it comes to keeping precious metals in the ground. Something else I liked about the gold cache recovery was that the site was very complicated and probably not the way a rancher would hide his gold, unless he was well educated or knew somebody who was. Was it proven, beyond a doubt, that the cache belonged to the rancher. I seem to remember the bars were made out of melted coin.

 

[mdog]

Obviously you have not ran into all the government agencies who most definitely can and do stop you from treasure hunting as well as can confiscate your equipment, either that or your not talking about vault treasure hunting.

This sounds like a warning to be aware of the consequences of vault hunting. I agree with you 100 per cent.

 

[cyzak]

This sounds like a warning to be aware of the consequences of vault hunting. I agree with you 100 per cent.

Its not just about vault hunting here is a experience I had with a BLM Ranger last year. I hope it opens up some people's eyes I will make this short I have no photos or recorded conversations on this so you will have to trust me. I have also asked permission to do this post in consideration of the man who started this thread.Me and my family were out in area we like to go look around readily accessible with 4X4 was out walking around and found a very awesome looking piece of wood on the ground about 3 foot long and 6" round did not have anything to do with anything just neat looking. I decided i was taking it home so we took it back to the truck and we started driving out here comes a ranger up the road.So he stops me and i roll the down the window first thing out of his mouth what are doing with that wood I said taken it home I need to see your permit I am looking at him permit for what, wood smart ass.I tell him I do not have a permit take it back were you got it ok I will no problem.So we take it back to were we found it when I come out he is up on hill watching and here he comes again i had enough my rig was built for off road I was out of there. The fish and game have now merged with parks and rec here they are coming out with all kinds of regulation and permits now also they want to move the BLM office from Washington DC to out here so they can mange the lands better get the picture.

 

[sandy1]

I have had issues when it comes to treasure hunting with the (BLM) (The State of AZ on State Trust Land) (Game and Fish) (Forestry Service) (The Police) (Army Core of engineers) (The Air force Jets turning us in to local authorities for digging)
The first thing you will hear from all of them is this, what are you doing out here, as if you are automatically a criminal just for digging.

 

[sdcfia]

This sounds like a warning to be aware of the consequences of vault hunting. I agree with you 100 per cent.

Yeah, you ought to know what you're up against. The Antiquities Act makes illegal the removal of any manmade objects from Public Land, or damage to the terrain while looking for artifacts of any kind. I think it pertains to anything over 50 years old - have to read the Act to be sure of all the details. It also applies to natural objects such as mineral specimens, trees and plants, seashells, etc. Even certain types of photography is prohibited in some places. You can get permits in certain cases. Enforcement varies with location, but folks have had their metal detectors confiscated for seemingly minor infractions, such as locating and removing old discarded tin cans - technically an infraction. National Forests, Wilderness Areas, National Parks, National Monuments, Military Reservations, Historic sites and BLM lands are all affected. States and cities have their own laws for their lands.

 

[mdog]

I have had issues when it comes to treasure hunting with the (BLM) (The State of AZ on State Trust Land) (Game and Fish) (Forestry Service) (The Police) (Army Core of engineers) (The Air force Jets turning us in to local authorities for digging)
The first thing you will hear from all of them is this, what are you doing out here, as if you are automatically a criminal just for digging.

You ever been charged for anything?

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Sdc. It was the Jesuit/Portuguese connection that caught my attention. You have seen my posts about the Crypto Jews in the southwest, there were also a lot of Crypto Jews in Portugal. There were Converso Jews who were allowed in the new Jesuit order and this got me to, one more time, consider the possibilities of a smuggling operation conducted by people with no allegiance to the Spanish King or the Pope. Mike's article also got me to thinking that even if the Jesuits had no mines, they had other sources of income that could be paid for in silver coin, or gold. It could then be smuggled north, out of Mexico in the form of bars formed out of melted coin. I also liked his idea that church time was different than human lifespan, when it comes to keeping precious metals in the ground. Something else I liked about the gold cache recovery was that the site was very complicated and probably not the way a rancher would hide his gold, unless he was well educated or knew somebody who was. Was it proven, beyond a doubt, that the cache belonged to the rancher. I seem to remember the bars were made out of melted coin.

I got my info about the Quinn recovery from "SB", a man of impeccable character and integrity who was very much in the know when he lived in AZ. He knew Quinn and other legitimate players there. The rancher was reportedly an educated man with connections in the then MX government and considered himself a Villa target. I can't remember if the bars were recast coins.

Your theory about the Jesuits smuggling metal into the USA is very interesting and a new angle to think about. It might support a lot of folks' allegations about caches in the Superstition region.