501(c)(4) tax exempt without application

[Native Floridian]

I watched FOX last night after the baseball game. The Phillies as usual had no offense. But at least the pitching was bad!

So i tune in Greta van Sustern. i like Greta, even though she's turned right wing schill. Everyone's gotta eat!

Greta's show last night was a round robin of the big three "Obama scandals"

She started with AP and quickly over to the IRS.

After watching this I can understand why some of you steadfastly hold on to misinformation and falacies.

Greta interviewed two 501(c) (4) org leaders to get to the bottom of the IRS mess!

First up the leader of the Richmond TEA party

Greta: So the IRs held up your application status making impossible for your donors to contribute annonymously?

leader: That's correct Greta.

No it's not! The ability to donate annonymously comes with C4 incorporation. To apply to the IRS for exempt status as (c)(4) you first have to establish a (c)(4). Once incorporated you can solicit annonymous donations. Those donations are tax exempt to the corp as long as no members profit. tax exemption is taken via form 990.



Leader number two was the head of a 501(c)(4) named Z STREET.

Greta: The IRS has delayed your application impeding your ability to raise money by making it impossible for your donors to make tax deductable donations?

leader: Yes

The correct answer is no. 501(C)(4) orgs are not charities. Donations to them are not tax deductable in most instances. ( if the org has a c3 corp with in the c4 donors could deduct contributions to that c3) Regardless, filing for tax exempt status has no effect.



I've paraphrased the above conversations. These questions were answered in the affirmative that the IRS impeded these orgs ability to operate. Which is not true. There is no debate that the IRS has delayed their aps. However, what are we to think here? Do these people not understand the nuances in within the tax code that affects their orgs? Are they that uninformed? Or are they just playing the misinformation game to enflame their base? That we have to decide for ourselves.

 

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[Native Floridian]

I, uh, am.....speechless. How can one argue fact? Are these people giving testimony for no reason? This must be some right wing propaganda right? Maybe Diese made up all that info. Maybe barry really knew nothing. Maybe I'm the queen of england.

You confuse my post here impuning these orgs for needlessly filing with excusing the IRS for it's behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth!

I excuse the IRS for nothing. i believe there could Be much more to this than we now know. But, as an indian, not a chief i'm content to let the wheel turn as investigators dig out the truth. Then, with all the facts in , i will judge. Which i believe stands as the stark difference between myself, you, Diesel, TH and most others here. You've made up your minds without the facts. You do this to align with your agenda. I have no agenda other than the truth.


As for all the information Diesel posted, it's good info. I addressed the issues with in another post.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

There is no debate that the IRS has delayed their aps. However, what are we to think here? Do these people not understand the nuances in within the tax code that affects their orgs? Are they that uninformed? Or are they just playing the misinformation game to enflame their base? That we have to decide for ourselves.

Do you not understand the IRS did everything in its power io hinder and delay thei conservative's applications which you are trying to justify...........There is no justification what so ever for what they did, it is not the IRS's job to hinder anything, much less hinder based on political party.....

 

[dieselram94]

Dram, what you did was take a lot of time to split hairs.

I don't have to post the IRS rules, you did that for me. Thank you! That you don't understand the significance of what those rules mean, how do i anwser that? That you've confuesd tax exempt for donors with tax exempt for the organization, ah? That your lack of understanding empowers you to believe you are right, what can I say to that?

First you missed the application deadline rule and failed to understand it's significance. You left it out of your "Facts" post though it is the very rule that allows these orgs to be self declared tax exempts.

Then you list Business deductions as the reason for these orgs having to file. Though tax exemption has nothing to do with business deductions.

Then you really split hairs with the c3 within a c4 as the reason!

Now it's no application equals no tax id number, which again is wrong.

When these orgs are formed a decision has to be made as to what form they take. Most choose incorporation. With incorporation comes a tax ID number.

I agree with you about one thing - this has gotten beyond ridiculous.

NF, I have posted proof. You are just choosing to interpret it the way you want.
A 501(c)(4) has no deadline to apply, no one is saying different. What I am saying is before they can file their 990 form they must apply and receive a tax number. Where do you think the number comes from? The IRS MUST assign one. the organization just can't make one up!
A limited amount of donations are deductible to companies as well as some amount going to charity through this designation. With out a tax number assigned the deduction can not happen. It must be a "qualified" deduction. This means it must be documented with a tax ID number!!
All the deadline thing means is there is no penalty for not applying, but without the tax ID number (we just went through this) the amount of donations coming in will be very limited (who or what entity wants to pass up a deduction?).

 

[Native Floridian]

DRam, you are confusing applying for an EIN with applying for tax exempt status. EINs are assigned as a normal course of incorporation. They are routine regardless of the corporation's purpose.

501c's are corporations. That is the offical form most take. In that regard they no different than your local CVS. Both are corporations. Incorporation is done at the state level. At some point in forming your group you will need a Federal Employer Tax Identifcation Number, an EIN. This is the tax ID you speak of. A 501c receives their TAX ID the same way as every other corporation. These days it's a short online application. The ID number in most instances is received immediately. Usually, the attorney who has been hired to do all the incorporation paperwork handles it as part of their package.

Obtaining an EIN has nothing to do with tax exempt status. You could start a 501 c4 today and with an attorney who knows what paperwork is needed , be up and running with an EIN within a week to ten days. And, it takes that long only because the wheel has to turn.

THis is not an interpretation, it is simple corporate law.

 

[Native Floridian]

TH, I am amazed at what you and others get from my posts that i have not written. First bevo with his misdirected rant at me. And now you believing that I'm trying to justify what the IRS has done.

So let me clear this up for you. I don't justify what the IRS has done. Is that in plain enough english for you?

At the same time this thread is directed at the assine 501c4 application filers who, in most cases, needlessly filed for tax exempt status.

I am also amazed that many here, as evidenced by bevos post of the Texas couple who were abused by the IRS, are so naive to the abuses of the IRS. THese articles are posted as if they are news. I've got to be the only one here non plussed by that article. The IRS abusing not only their power but ordinary citizens is nothing new. These abuses are as sickening now, as they were was 35 years ago. And the abuses are no different.

That said, that abuse has nothing to do the current administration. The IRS has been an agency out of control for as long as i can remember. Trying to connect these abuses to current events or people is laugably uninformed. The Tea party app controversy is a new wrinkle in that it singles out just one party. So there, an investgation is needed.

 

[dieselram94]

NF your last sentence about just one party bring singled out is proof that this administration has something to do with it. On top of that the Obama administration is lying about it, as thy have with Fast and Furious, Libya, and other scandals...I hope your not trying to give obama a free pass.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

.

That said, that abuse has nothing to do the current administration. The IRS has been an agency out of control for as long as i can remember. Trying to connect these abuses to current events or people is laugably uninformed. The Tea party app controversy is a new wrinkle in that it singles out just one party. So there, an investgation is needed.

The fact it was only against conservative groups blows your statement out of the water, it is also obvious your going to defend obama no matter what he does to this country.....

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[Native Floridian]

The fact it was only against conservative groups blows your statement out of the water, it is also obvious your going to defend obama no matter what he does to this country.....

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And everything you see is an Obama conspriracy.

My statement is that IRS abuse is nothing new. The IRS has been pulling this BS for as long as i've been an adult. I realize that it is your belief that before Obama took office the IRS was a fine upstanding agancy, free of corruption and abuse. Let's leave it that we disagree on that point.

Regarding the controversy:

Truthfully , i don't think this controversy touches the President. It's big, but!!! Taking into account that most of the IRS people involved in this are career bureaucrats, most having worked for several Presidents, both parties, what would trigger these people, enmasse, to commit major felonies for this particular president?

Again, in the James Bond movies all the co conspiritors are like minded, bent on committing the crime and sharing the payoff. Where's the payoff here? As a IRS employee making all of what, $60,00 a year commit a felony? And, if i'm a manager making $150,000 a year with the best benefits on the planet i'm going to risk that and time in a federal Penitentiary? For what? Ideology? Yeah right!

Anything is possible, but Obama being involved? Not likely!

 

[dieselram94]

NF, I think you are blinded to reality here. These people feel they are untouchable and they very well may be right. What do they have to fear with this justice dept?

 

[Dave44]

And everything you see is an Obama conspriracy.

My statement is that IRS abuse is nothing new. The IRS has been pulling this BS for as long as i've been an adult. I realize that it is your belief that before Obama took office the IRS was a fine upstanding agancy, free of corruption and abuse. Let's leave it that we disagree on that point.

Regarding the controversy:

Truthfully , i don't think this controversy touches the President. It's big, but!!! Taking into account that most of the IRS people involved in this are career bureaucrats, most having worked for several Presidents, both parties, what would trigger these people, enmasse, to commit major felonies for this particular president?

Again, in the James Bond movies all the co conspiritors are like minded, bent on committing the crime and sharing the payoff. Where's the payoff here? As a IRS employee making all of what, $60,00 a year commit a felony? And, if i'm a manager making $150,000 a year with the best benefits on the planet i'm going to risk that and time in a federal Penitentiary? For what? Ideology? Yeah right!

Anything is possible, but Obama being involved? Not likely!

Nice pit down NF! And a sweet inference that Ram is a nut and unable to recognize your brilliance! Skillful.

In reality though, doesn't the ability to let insults roll off of his back elevate Rams stature, while diminishing NFs'? I really don't know how you do it Ram!

 

[dieselram94]

Nice pit down NF! And a sweet inference that Ram is a nut and unable to recognize your brilliance! Skillful.

In reality though, doesn't the ability to let insults roll off of his back elevate Rams stature, while diminishing NFs'? I really don't know how you do it Ram!

Thanks Dave...I just consider the source! LOL!:beer:

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[Native Floridian]

Nice pit down NF! And a sweet inference that Ram is a nut and unable to recognize your brilliance! Skillful.

In reality though, doesn't the ability to let insults roll off of his back elevate Rams stature, while diminishing NFs'? I really don't know how you do it Ram!

Dave, maybe a little less beer for you when you are posting here. The comment you parsed was directed at Treausure Hunter, not Diesel. So i guess, Diesel would let that one go since it wasn't directed at him.

Nor was my comment intended as an insult. Throughout these threads TH has told me and others we are crazy if we don't see the conspiracies. That everything goes to the president.

The right hates Obama. They want him out regardless of the facts. In their view everything that goes wrong is by fault or criminal enterprise and extends right into the oval office. We in the center understand this. We also understand that, short of getting rid of Obama the next best thing is to make him ineffective. Derail his presidentcy.

This is the agenda of the right.

Dave, you misread facts for insults.

As for diesel, here is a guy who doesn't understand the basics of businesses applying for tax ID numbers. I tried to give him the benefit of a doubt in our debate. I politely as i could told him he was wrong.

That he is wrong, but doesn't think he is, and that you agree with him, well, gee, I think there was a movie title about that. There is little i can do if you, instead of trying to understand the facts, all you want is to proclaim you are right. Maybe Beer is a factor.

So i'll do here what i do when confronted in those situations, agree!

OK you are right! Time to move on.

 

[dieselram94]

Dave, maybe a little less beer for you when you are posting here. The comment you parsed was directed at Treausure Hunter, not Diesel. So i guess, Diesel would let that one go since it wasn't directed at him.

Nor was my comment intended as an insult. Throughout these threads TH has told me and others we are crazy if we don't see the conspiracies. That everything goes to the president.

The right hates Obama. They want him out regardless of the facts. In their view everything that goes wrong is by fault or criminal enterprise and extends right into the oval office. We in the center understand this. We also understand that, short of getting rid of Obama the next best thing is to make him ineffective. Derail his presidentcy.

This is the agenda of the right.

Dave, you misread facts for insults.

As for diesel, here is a guy who doesn't understand the basics of businesses applying for tax ID numbers. I tried to give him the benefit of a doubt in our debate. I politely as i could told him he was wrong.

That he is wrong, but doesn't think he is, and that you agree with him, well, gee, I think there was a movie title about that. There is little i can do if you, instead of trying to understand the facts, all you want is to proclaim you are right. Maybe Beer is a factor.

So i'll do here what i do when confronted in those situations, agree!

OK you are right! Time to move on.

Nf, I had already let the 501 thing go as it was obvious that we were not going to agree . You seem to be intelligent. But here you are doing the same thing you accuse others of doing . You claim applying to the irs is a conspiracy from the tea party. It's very obvious what side your on as well as what side I am on. I believe Dave's comment was directed at many of your past comments . Not just your last comment.

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[onfire]

Nf Does it really mater if this is true or not. Just because some on the right have read O's Bible ... Saul Alinsky's Rules. Why let a good chaos go to waste.

 

[0121stockpicker]

Nice pit down NF! And a sweet inference that Ram is a nut and unable to recognize your brilliance! Skillful.

In reality though, doesn't the ability to let insults roll off of his back elevate Rams stature, while diminishing NFs'? I really don't know how you do it Ram!

Never a need for anyone no matter what side they are on to get personal and especially to insult. It never helps to prove anyone's point and usually shows just the opposite. We all can have differing opinions and beliefs but lets try and to discuss with dignity and respect. Our at least without a ton of insults. Just my 2 cents.

Best.

 

[Native Floridian]

Nf, I had already let the 501 thing go as it was obvious that we were not going to agree . You seem to be intelligent. But here you are doing the same thing you accuse others of doing . You claim applying to the irs is a conspiracy from the tea party. It's very obvious what side your on as well as what side I am on. I believe Dave's comment was directed at many of your past comments . Not just your last comment.

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Dave, I've tried to be pateint with you and give you the benefit of a doubt.

On the face of the argument itself:

you don't believe that the tea party groups were granted automatic tax exempt status when they were. As are all 501(c)(4) orgs

you do believe that the tea party group's abilty to operate and fund raise was hampered by the IRS when it wasn't

You missed the fact that there is no deadline for a 501(c)(4) filing for tax exempt status.

You fail to understand what "No filing deadline" means

You posted that for businesses to claim a business deduction in donating to these 501(C)(4) groups they need to supply the group's tax id number to the IRS. This though it's a business deduction, not a charitable contribution. if that were true businesses would have to give the IRS the tax ID number of every supplier and business partner for which they wish to file a deduction. Which is something they do not have to do. Receipts are what are used, not tax ID numbers.

You posted that businesses need the group's tax id number so the business can claim a deduction when donating to the group. Yet the entire benefit of 501(c)(4 ) groups is that donations are made anonymously. That's the entire reason for their existence! The donation would no longer be anonymous if a tax ID were supplied.

You posted the reason for 501(C)(4) groups applying for tax exempt status was because businesses needed a tax ID number so they could take the deduction.

You confuse a basic EIN application with applying for tax exempt status.

YOu believe that 501(c) (4) organizations are charities. Which they are not.

Yet i am the one who is wrong? (Just ask dave)


You posted the following assumtions about me:

That I trust the government

That i was excusing IRS

Giving obama a free pass

And you poste the following insults:

I'm blinded to reality

an uninformed source

I'm in a different dimension

You also posted you don't drop to the level of personal attacks. Even though, through out the tread you did just that.

Dave, I could say some things about you. But why? You done a great job of speaking for yourself.

And here you are again, in the this post - putting words in my mouth. Making assumtions. I never said there was a tea party conspiracy. That's you, again applying your prejudice to our conversation.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Thread is locked....