16-18th century Spanish manuscripts

[Alexandre]

Alexandre,

Can you read early Spanish manuscripts from the 1500s? There is a big difference between late and early 16th century. The second document you posted is Portuguese.

I would like to know who are the best Spanish paleographists today. I have heard that there may be only a handful. As Mariner, wisely stated it is not just understanding Spanish, but you must be familiar with old Spanish vocabulary, old handwriting, and be able to decipher the countless abbreviations used in the 1500s.

V

Vulcan, I can look for, and read, and transcribe, and translate, BOTH Portuguese and Spanish document, with dates ranging from the 12th till the 19th centuries. If it is help with one or two documents that you have, I can help you for free, no strings attached - just keep in mind that I am not a gun for hire.

Anyhow, Vox Veritas is much better than I am with Spanish documents. I would say he is your man.

 

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[vulcan007]

Thanks

V

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

where do you get those nice clean documents? all I get are well bled through copies.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Alexandre]

All archives provide you with either a microfilm image or a good scan..

 

[mariner]

Don Jose, my friend,

Many of these original manuscripts have the writing on the reverse side bleeding through: it is a matter of the porosity of the paper and the properties and thickness of the ink being used. So if you get the highest quality scan avaulable, it will just reproduce the bleed-through from the reverse side.

The thing you can then do is transfer the file to a pogram like Photoshop where you can manipulate and try to enhance the image, though you have to be careful not to distort the main image in doing so.

Good luck, and best wishes,

Mariner

 

[ivan salis]

its more than just "translation" of the the words from A to B --its a whole thought process -- you need to think "old school" to understand them so you get the proper content and feel for the terms and phrases used as they wrote their "thoughts" down --you have to get into their minds so to speak.

to speak spanish correctly -- you must first learn to think in spanish

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ivan my buddy, You posted -->you must first learn to think in Spanish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Absolutely correct, but not to translate literally, but with the 'intent' of the author in proper English. Thus, to be a perfect translator, one must be a bit of a psychologist also, to be able to project back to the authors time, place, and customs, yet to convert them to the present language, customs, etc.. correctly. Good professional translators earn their money, especially on difficult documents.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ivan salis]

You understand exactly what I meant . PROPER TRANSLATION is much more than just mere word swapping -- spanish word for english word and "reading it"

fine exsample * in spanish the noun comes first then what about it -- la casa rojo --the house "red" --while in english it would need to be switched to ---the "red" house --to be properly translated

translation of spanish 1715 fleet wreck info * a snip it

merely word swapped from spanish word for word to english

"on the coast north of st augustine wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found "

sounds straight forward enough -- wreckage was found on the coast , NORTH of st augustine --right? --wrongo!!!

remember the switch ? the noun is the word * coast * thus "north" goes "before" coast

so it comes out like this -- "on the north coast of st augustine , wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found " thus its saying close to st augustine on it northern coastline area --- not farther much farther north as the other reading would have you think.

if indeed they had meant to say" wreckage was found north of st augustine on the coast" --then this is how they would have written it instead .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Ivan : again quite correct my friend. If I may, I will follow up on your example. You posted -->

on the coast north of st augustine wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I were to translate this it would be exactly as Ivan posted, but perhaps it might be a bit clearer -->

'on the coast, north of St agustine, wreckage --- '

'on the north coast of St Augustine, wreclage --'

As you can see, Ivan is quite correct, this would never show up in a literal trans or from a trans program. A simple placement of a coma and the transposition of a dirrection changes the context.

***** Ivan.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Vox veritas]

Also, the old Castilian, called today Spanish, it has evolved a lot in 500 years. There is "provincialisms" in each one of the several countries where Spanish is spoken. Undoubtedly, to transcribe a document of the XVI century is an art that requires many years of experiences. I learned paleography in the university of Seville with Manuel Romero, a serious professional.
A not well made transcription can mean wornout money foolishly, like in the case of the Atocha, where the word "ueste" (west) it was transcribed and translated as "este" (east).
Cheers VV

 

[ivan salis]

the same person that mistranslated the above passage as well as the east / west error * he was self taught spanish --and is a well known explorer and has found many more wrecks than I'll ever get a chance to --- but hes only human and as such has made a few errors here and there--some say his mistakes were on purpose , others say honest mistakes ( he too according to some was looking for the mother load ATOCHA) once the east /west mix up and the keys question was settled -- it was easily found -- but only after lots of wasted time and money due to a simple set of errors

what other translation slip ups, have been accepted as gospel for years , repeated over and over again with no one double checking for errors in the original translation?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mariner, my long time friend; I thank you for that information. It will definitely come in handy in the near future.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[vulcan007]

Mates

Many of the old Spanish documents we have today were incorrectly transcribed from old writing to modern Spanish and then may have been incorrectly translated to English. Very few people in the world can do this task correctly. You must not only be able to think in modern Spanish, but must be able to think in modern English and understand the symbols and abbreviations from the 16th century Spain/Indies. You must be able to identify and read the old text from fading pages. You must know the terminology of words used in the 16th century which are no longer used in modern Spanish.

I do not buy the claims that some make to read these documents. They may be referring to easy manuscripts. This is the difference between the wannabes and the professional scholars. I have asked around and even most PHD scholars cannot do this job. It takes a certain unique skill to do this and much patience.

Accurate translation is the key to finding lost treasure!

V

 

[Alexandre]

I do not buy the claims that some make to read these documents. They may be referring to easy manuscripts. This is the difference between the wannabes and the professional scholars. I have asked around and even most PHD scholars cannot do this job. It takes a certain unique skill to do this and much patience.

Accurate translation is the key to finding lost treasure!

1) you have to be fluent in Spanish;

2) you have to have practiced a lot

3) there are easy, easier and hard and harder documents; any can be read and translated, what varies is the time you spend with them

 

[vulcan007]

Alexandre, can you transcribe this document?

V

 

[Alexandre]

Taking into account that the more one looks into a document (or better yet, a whole batch of documents) the more speedier one gets and knowing that the quality if this copy isn't the better copy one would hope to get, just by looking it it one can read:



... que este tiempo que va...... me manda partir para ... ysla de la florida...

.... ofiçiales de la casa de la contratacion... pueden... quiere... Armada y flota... de .. Yndias.. estan muy..

.....

..... y buscar los marineros y otros pasageros....



Less than one hour working on this and it would all be cracked. Is this a test?

 

[vulcan007]

no test