The history of Tayopa

[FEMF]

Hola amigo,

Somewhere I read that an American had approached either emperor Maximilian or Napoleon and had maps, to Tayopa, El Naranjal and another mine the name of which escapes me; <de Arco?> you have it right on about the idea of building a RR to Tayopa, and French troops were sent to the villages in the area of el Naranjal so Nap must have thought the info was good enough. As you said though, this is jumping the gun a wee bit - still haven't figured out how the mission of Our Lady of Guadelupe de Tayopa became a royal mining Real, but somehow things must have changed, legally. Did the king learn of the existence of the mines, and take them away from the Jesuits, or was it the Viceroy, or how did this happen? The Planchas de Plata deposit in AZ is said to have been discovered by a Yaqui, 'grabbed' by the Jesuits but soon Spaniards learned of the mine and Captain Anza intervened etc so I am wondering if something similar to this occurred with Tayopa? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

Hello Oro
I believe it was Mike that posted a site or article about a Southern Sentor that had mining claims in California who made contact with Napoleon's illegitimate half brother and was arrested for treason when he tried to reenter the state's after a letter to his wife in Paris was intercepted about the plot.
I'll look for it. It was Lincon's Secretary of State that tried to have him prosecuted, the Sentor died in California. Mike was that you that poster this?
FEMF
P.S. The half brother was said to be the brains behind the Throne and the plot fell apart when he died.

Is this what you were referring to?

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=67211.60;wap

Hello Cubfan
Yes it is! Thank you for posting it.
FEMF
P.S. Sorry Oro, it was you that posted it! it's been awhile.Thanks.

 

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[snake35]

This has been a great thread to read. I hope it keeps growing!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Cubber, Oro de Tayopa etc., here are a few pictures of Bermudes and some of the southen descendants today. DeMoss. It is a beautiful valley surrounded by pine clad mts with a nice little year around flowing stream in the middle. It lies perhaps 1/3 third of the way to Tayopa.

The one in my older Isuzu trooper, is my ever luvin wife.

Don Jose de la Mancha el *Tropical Tramp*

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

LOVE the photos! <2 thumbs up!>

Oro de Tayopa - as much as I DO like that nickname, I feel very un-qualified for it, having never even been to Mexico much less to the vaunted Tayopa, YET. Hoping to change that this coming winter though. I find it hard to understand how such a lovely lady as your wife, has gotten tagged with such a ferocious nickname "El Tigre"? Is the nickname a rather private joke, sort of as we may find a huge man nicknamed "Tiny" that is clearly the opposite of the truth?

I am still learning the real history of Tayopa too - like the location being between headwaters of both the Yaqui and Mayo rivers, a fact I did not know and kind of forces some re-sorting of the stories. Also still un-sure about Toapora as one of the names, which if not would also mean some sorting needs doing.

FEMF - no sweat amigo, heck I probably would have had to admit that I forgot I posted it, (I suffer from Olpharts Syndrome) had Cub not located the post. Among the famous lost mines they had also talked of Minas Prietas, which is one we haven't mentioned.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning Oro de Tayopa: You asked --> Is the nickname a rather private joke?
******************
Nah, you obviously are not acquainted with the famous, Latina female temperament! sigh. She hasn't connected with a coffee cup in years now, I am too fast and have learned subtle indications leading up it. ALSO we had a loong talk the last time No-one around me is going to waste COFFEE!! With others she has a charming, sweet personality ?

I suspect that she would die for me, which is the normal reaction of anyone that knows me, sigh, but the Latina part has a short fuse, most Latinas do.

Back to Tayopa

Don Jose d eLa Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Oroblanco]

Okay amigo, I will take your word for it!

Back to Tayopa;

Don Jose, does this passage from Rudo Ensayo (Nentvig) refer to Tayopa?

We shall begin our flight in twenty eight degrees twelve minutes latitude and two hundred and sixty seven degrees longitude and we here see lying before us the mining settlement of the Most Holy Trinity in the same latitude and longitude together with that of the Rio Chico in twelve minutes less of latitude and ten degrees of longitude We can also see the town of Tacupeto in twenty nine degrees and three minutes latitude and two hundred and sixty six degrees fifty five minutes longitude The distances from the Missions are to be found in the preceding chapter Section I

The first named mining settlement was founded in the year 1754 when a very rich silver mine was found which was operated for five years stimulating trade in this Province and also in Ostimuri and Tharaumara until gold was found at San Antonio The mine might have produced even more but for the repeated lawsuits that grew out of it the tresspassing of one owner upon another and the consequent disturbances together with the inefficiency of the laws on mines which have caused it to be lost It gave rich yield when operated by fire and also makes good returns by quicksilver According to rumor it is now worked only clandestinely but although the workmen are few the output is good There are two other small mining settlements to the Southwest and West from this one called Santa Ana and the other Our Lady of Guadalupe.

I have quite a time trying to convert the Jesuit longitude (measured only easterly from Tenerife in the Canary Islands) to our modern longitudes, and have found some of their estimated longitudes to be off up to several degrees so can't pin this down well, but that name sure sounds like Our Lady de Guadelupe de Tayopa to me!

Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

This one of the Tayopa Zone, shows the ridge deviding Sonora and Chihuahua, this side is Chih. The drainage on this side is the Mayo River feed, the other side of the ridge is the Yaqui river drainage.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp wrote

Good morning Ladies, guys & Oro de Tayopa: Here are the co-ordinates of tayopa 1,2,3. check them out on your fav satt viewer

First muchas gracias amigo por la informacion, however MUST we use a sat viewer (ala Googley Urth)? As neat, keen "gee whiz" as they may be, I really don't care much for them and have a great deal of difficulty just getting oriented to where I am viewing. I think I am going to have to start buying some topo maps for Mexico, those we had have been lost a long time and I don't know any "free" site online for Mexican topo maps.
Oroblanco, or should I try that new handle Oro de Tayopa? After all, a good treasure hunter needs to have several good aliases to go by, "just in case". That sure sounds a lot more impressive than the other nicknames I've had over the years, like "Digger" and "Buddha".

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Oro de Tayopa: OK I will post the sat picture, plus a few others.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,
Gracias; my main problem with satellite images is understanding what it is that I am looking at - (after the difficulty in getting oriented to landmarks) - so if it will take much time/effort for the sat images, I am happy (much happier, to be honest) with topo maps, marked for the important points, like you posted.

There are several questions I would like to ask, like were you able to identify any old connecting mule trails from Tayopa, to other villages, did you find anything like a crude adobe foundry, any slag or droplets of precious metals, what about ruins/foundations of Indio houses etc so will try to be patient; in fact if it were possible to arrange I would like to be able to ask those questions while standing there. It is always easier to 'picture' the way things were, if you can stand on the spot or on a higher hill/ridge so as to look down on it. For you, as a pilot, you are well accustomed to viewing things from the birds-eye view so satellite images are just the same view from a higher altitude but to a landlubber like me the sat photos are more confusing than anything.

Back to our history of Tayopa, it seems like Tayopa was repeatedly attacked and abandoned several times, but could this be simply a "connecting the dots" where they are not, as in one Tayopa is attacked and abandoned, then a "new" Tayopa is later attacked and then abandoned etc? If you could clarify this part of the history, I would appreciate it.

Thank you in advance, only have a few minutes to be online here but wanted to catch up.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good evening snake: Getting any answers so far ? I will be posting a lot more as time goes by. Put in your 2 cents on any part, ask away, but be warned ahead of time, "X" will not be revealerd or Beth will skin me alive. If I can't answer your questions, or those that any one else may post, I still have a problem.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose', Dueno el Tayopa wrote

Put in your 2 cents on any part, ask away, but be warned ahead of time, "X" will not be revealerd or Beth will skin me alive.

...you forgot the rest of that statement; "...With a dull deer antler" <the Seneca preferred implement for flaying captives>

Kidding of course

Don Jose, we have been filling in the early and middle part of this history, but have not touched on the late part. One of the things I have been wanting to ask you for some time is, did you find any evidence of recent visitors to Tayopa, the very first time you saw it? (As in old campfire rings, etc) Anything that would be before your arrival, but later than say 1790? I was wondering if any other treasure hunter had been in Tayopa, perhaps without even realizing it. <Or scalp hunter, like Kirker> Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Ladies & Gentlemen: Oro de Tayopa, you asked -->One of the things I have been wanting to ask you for some time is, did you find any evidence of recent visitors to Tayopa, the very first time you saw it?
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Yes of course, the main rainy season trails from Ariaschi, Yoquivo, and north to Moris cross just above El Paramo. The place where Dobie 'claims ' that he was camped. This is where a mule train joined them for the night and shared roasting corn, and is prob within 400 meters of the Northen edge of El Paramo. This the south, Eastern edge of the sierra de Obscuro. The southern Sierra Obscuro is where that huge Grizz lived. Also there is a new lumber mill overlooking the Tayopa canyon, perhaps 5 -600 meters from the small church site on top of Tayopa, as indicated in Dobie's map above..

Also the proposed camp site, as mentioned, lies approx. 400 meters to where the Arriero supposedly blew his cow horn listening for the returned 3 echos. This is also correct, see Dobie's drawn map above. If he blew down into the Paramo, the sound would go straight down and be reflected back by the angled cliff, it would also be reflected to the right into the Tayopa canyon where it would also be reflected to the head of the Tayopa canyon by that angled cliff, while being reflected back into the Paramo and the horn blower. the sound wave that was directed of the head of the Tayopa canyon would return the same way, This would give the three returns at different intervals as mentioned, also the time interval would also tend to modify the frequency.

Since this is on a still well traveled, rainy season, animal trail, it is used quite a bit, and naturally, this campsite is often used since it is at the top of a long high climb. It is a flat area about 200 x 400 meters with fire wood readily available and some water.
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You also asked --> I was wondering if any other treasure hunter had been in Tayopa, perhaps without even realizing it.

***************

I haven't the slightrest doubt that many have. As you mentioned , the key is realizing it. There was no large portal, it was covered. As for dump ore, no problem, it was merely shunted down into the narrow canyon floor where it was quickly covered by the Heavy summer rains and hurricanes that periodically cross over the area. As for the main workings, they were two huge stope areas, one above the other. Apparently there was very little dump rock to dispose of, most was processing or shipping ore of Ag---- Silver..

I will state this Right now, please don't ask me how I know this with a still closed up mine, I am not at liberty to discuss this on a public media, but will show & prove this you when we meet.
=======================================================================================*


You also asked --> scalp hunter, like Kirker> Thank you in advance;
****************
Frankly I haven't the fainted idea if they ever did , but am very sceptical since the present data suggests that they were far to the North and East of the tayopa area.
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You also asked--> what about ruins/foundations of Indio houses etc
****************
The picture of the Indian's hut above, was built on the basic area of the Workers of Tayopa. That was down on the flats below and south of the Tayopa canyon.
=========================================================================================


You also asked --> it seems like Tayopa was repeatedly attacked and abandoned several times, but could this be simply a "connecting the dots" where they are not, as in one Tayopa is attacked and abandoned, then a "new" Tayopa is later attacked and then abandoned etc?
****************

As far as I know at this point, Tayopa was abandoned / closed up in the 1600's and never reopened. But the area was exploited when they Jesuits returned
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Oro you posted --> I think I am going to have to start buying some topo maps for Mexico,
************
Save your money, the area is too broken up for the normal lines to be drawn, they are just dashed lines. See post no. 26 above with the Tayopa property lines drawn on it, that is a topo map of the area.
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You posted --> I have quite a time trying to convert the Jesuit longitude (measured only easterly from Tenerife in the Canary Islands) to our modern longitudes
***************
Remember they didn't have the accurate timepieces needed to do this, they had to go by noon day shots. Even so, they did remarkably well.
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You asked --> Is there a record of all the 'official' Reals?
***************

Yes, but Tayopa never was an official Real, if it had been, it would never have been lost.
=========================================================================================


You posted --> This timeline I am tentatively identifying Tayopa #1 with a place also called San Juan del Rio, and Toapora.
*************

Tayopa no. 1 was at the Guaynopita/ Guaynopa zone.

K, this will do for this morning my friends. Feel free to ask what ever you are curious about or question.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI again , side thingie. On that last illfated trip looking for the iron door, which is not the main Tayopa workings, they camped about 100 ft up from the bottom of the canyon floor to eliminate any possible danger from a flash flood. That night they all heard a peculiar noise, so my son, and the son -in-law of my friend, climbed on top of a large rock to see what or who it was..

Soon they heard voices and many figures carrying torches appeared walking up the bottom of the Tayopa Barranca. They continued up to the northern cliff where they separated then disappeared. Both said that at first they thought that they were narcotic trafficantes looking for them.

Since they were unarmed they were a bit scared. Everyone heard the noise, yet in the morning, there were NO tracks

OK, OK, were they the ghosts of the former Indian miners going to work ?? I have no idea.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Oroblanco]

El Tropical Tramp wrote

OK, OK, were they the ghosts of the former Indian miners going to work ?? I have no idea.

That is interesting - especially considering the legend that "ghost miners" were sometimes heard deep in the earth, still mining long after death. The incident reminds me of a similar that Beth & I had, while hunting coons late one full-moon night in a rather un-inhabited valley called Pratt Hollow; we could clearly see the flashlights and two figures walking through the woods, so went over to see who it was and "poof" there was no one; no tracks, nothing. Still don't know what that was, ghost coon hunters?

That covered mine opening, do you think it was deliberately covered, or possibly a natural landslide? Either way could make it difficult to re-open it, depends on how deep and how big the rocks are. I look forward to reading more.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro de Tayopa: You asked -->? That covered mine opening, do you think it was deliberately covered, or possibly a natural landslide
*****************

It was deliberately done, both on the lower and upper accesses.

No other questions?

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[warsawdaddy]

Hey Jose de La Mancha,do I need to apoligize for including you in,http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,335386.0.html ?

 

[Oroblanco]

El gringo de la Mancha wrote

No other questions?

Good one amigo!

There are several that I would like to ask, but cannot in an open forum; but to stay within what is 'safe' to say publicly, how about this - were any of the seventeen hardrock mines open? Have you entered any of these, if they are open? Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Oro de Tayopa: You asked if there were any other mines open.

**************
No, not at that time, but the Indians up there have sent down word that a few were finally opened by the last Hurricane. They are willing to show them to me. it is just a mass of collapsed, rotten, portal timbers etc, they are afraid to enter.

Can we convince Beth to----- Oro?

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Don Jose, you have mentioned a conspiracy that was suspected in the 1767 Jesuit expulsion. I am not sure this is directly relevant to the history of Tayopa, but here is a tidbit;

Those Jesuits who remained captive in Spain for several years as scapegoats included many of the Sonora members of the Society. Eight German Jesuits, former missionaries in Lower California, sailed out of Cadiz (Spain) on a Dutch ship the day before the promulgation of a royal order which would have kept them prisoner. Father Benno Ducrue of Munich, who reports this incident20, did not know the reason for the order, but apparently the California Jesuits were believed to have traded with the Dutch.21

<footnote relating to this part>
21 "A document found by Dr Engel Sluiter during his extensive research in Dutch archives, 1935-36, reveals that in 1746 two Dutch ships landed on the west coast of New Spain. "

<Description of the Province of Sonora, Ignaz Pfefferkorn, Treutlein trans, pp 12 translators introduction>

From the same source, also notable, considering the vast secrecy of the Spanish royal authorities in the whole expulsion operation, and Jesuit abilities in avoiding such, is this tidbit <also a footnote>

20 "How he learned about the order at all is not revealed in his diary. <snip> Ducrue reveals the interesting fact that his group aboard the Dutch ship returned to Germany via Ostend rather than proceeding first to Italy, as most of the expulsos had to do. The idea of returning to central Europe via the Netherlands originated with some of the Jesuits who favored this route "so that we," as they put it, "could stand immediately upon disembarking on the territory of our sovereign reigning prince of the House of Austria."

This source also explains that five (four actually) Jesuits from the island of Chiloe were also held for several years after the expulsion, in hopes of getting some incriminating evidence from them - as they were suspected of a plot to betray the island of Chiloe to the English.

How was Father Ducrue able to learn of an order to have his group of Jesuits arrested, a day before the arrest? What a coincidence that they should travel on a Dutch ship, and wish to go to the Netherlands rather than Italy where all Jesuits were supposed to go. So that story of a Jesuit plot to betray New Spain to the Dutch is not without evidence entirely! Some very interesting things are to be found in the footnotes and margins of history it seems.
Roy