Alexandre

[VOC]

Alexandre

I see on another thread that you are not going to post anymore.

Although I and many others disagree with your veiws on the way forward, I have found many of your post both interesting and informative.

In a free society and on forums like this everyone has the rights to express their veiws even if others disagree or take offence, as long as you follow the forum rules.

I for one hope that you keep posting as it is good to get an Southern European perspective as well as an academic perspective to many of the debates.

I am as guilty as you for taking threads off topic, but it has flushed out many of the key arguments that have needed to be debated.

Hopefully with Fillipe now taking up the debate, the points raised over the last few months will also be heard in academic circles.

Keep up your good work and keep your comments and information flowing.



VOC

 

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[old man]

VOC, I agree with your post. I may not see eye to eye with many of Alexandre's post. However, I also believe that we all have opinions and they should be expressed whether we agree with them or not. The world would be a very boring place if everyone agreed about everything.

Hang in there Alexandre. It's good for us to hear from someone that on the academic side of treasure hunting.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hope you change your mind Paulo, It's lonely out here with the sharks.
I know you will be busy with the Spanish wrecks around Portugal, Don't forget my signed copy of National Geographic.
Cheers, Ossy

 

[aquanut]

Alexandre,
I too, want your input and opinions. Of course you know I disagree with you most of the time, however, your knowledge and statements do provoke a lot of discussion . Discussion that definitely needs to be debated. My friend Cornelius is very opinionated and has a low tolerance for what he sees as small thinking. Therefore he comes across as being flippant and intolerant. I, for one, appreciate his position, but I disagree with his approach. He definitely manages to alienate those that he disagrees with. Cornelius, I know you are reading this, so take my advice and cool it on your personal attacks. They don't help to keep anything moving forward.
Aquanut

 

[cornelis 816]

Yes John I did read your post . To clarify my position I have to write you the following . I do not have any love for archaeologist . What are they but a college educated person . Did they ever dive on a wreck ? Did they ever clean the crud off a cannon ? I do not have anything against the person Alexandre , but I do not like the way he expresses himself asif we are all dummies . He has some good information , I grant you that , but he is no pirate , if you know what I mean . Cornelius

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Yes John I did read your post . To clarify my position I have to write you the following . I do not have any love for archaeologist . What are they but a college educated person . Did they ever dive on a wreck ? Did they ever clean the crud off a cannon ? I do not have anything against the person Alexandre , but I do not like the way he expresses himself asif we are all dummies . He has some good information , I grant you that , but he is no pirate , if you know what I mean . Cornelius

You summed it up , He is no PIRATE he is a man of great knowledge and dignity, who preserves history and does not sell it off.
Ossy

 

[Scar]

I like to read all the posts of the folks that really know what they are doing, be it a pirate or scientist. Alexandre the Scientist and Cornelis the Pirate please keep posting so this dummy understands both sides of the story.

 

[cornelis 816]

Ossy . : a man of great knowledge : ?? Where did he get that knowledge ? Out of books ? Maybe studying the subjects ( out of books ) . He never told us something about his practical experiences . Still like his educational answers to us though , but be a little but more involved with the pirates ( who are no dummies either ! ) Cornelius

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy . : a man of great knowledge : ?? Where did he get that knowledge ? Out of books ? Maybe studying the subjects ( out of books ) . He never told us something about his practical experiences . Still like his educational answers to us though , but be a little but more involved with the pirates ( who are no dummies either ! ) Cornelius

Who are you to judge him My Pirate friend.
Ossy

 

[cornelis 816]

Ossy , I am not judging . I am just expressing my thoughts and opinions . More power to Alexandre ! Cornelius

 

[Panfilo]

It’s always good to have different points of view in these turbulent matters and I respect Alexandre for sharing his clearly out of the stream line thinking of the average Tnet member. I suspect that Alexandre finds refreshing and innovative ideas and interesting people to interact with that think and are involved in projects that are different than other archaeologists like him. For me in particular it’s always a real challenge to try and understand Alexandres’ perception of the shipwreck universe as its diametrically opposed to mine. But I certainly like to hear his views and read his posts with interest and find many valuable contributions in his unique perspective.
I would never try and convince him of anything nor to impose my views and have always felt the same position from him.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_archaeology
I can very much respect Marine archaeologists.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pirate
Pirate No jack sparrow here.
Ossy

 

[capt dom]

All of these guys who get up upon their "high horses"
and take the position, "THEY ARE PROTECTING THE PUBLIC INTEREST"
AND OR "NATIONAL PATRIMONY", are the worst kind of pirates!

Well not the worst.... almost the worst.... to be truly a scurrilous dog
in the 21st century one needs to have a law degree; then become a politician !

The few bottom feeders laying about on the public payroll, who call themselves
underwater archaeologists.... if you get to see inside their inner sanctums -
mostly all have their own "private collections"....

I learned a long time ago, one has to weed through almost everyone's
bull crap, to really begin to comprehend or understand what is beyond the unknown so....
post on Alexander....
P.S. If you really want to do us all
a service... how about looking up Pawal Nowack
and introducing him to the unknown....

 

[ScubaFinder]

I enjoyed many of Alexandre's posts, and definitely enjoyed our sparring over the sale of artifacts. Sure I got annoyed recently when anytime I posted anywhere about anything it was followed with a snide remark not pertaining to the topic. I too am guilty of posting off topic, as most of us do now and again.

No-one asked him to leave, he did it on his own accord. I can respect that, how long would any of us stay in a archaeological forum that beat us up for anything we said. I actually admire his tenacity and his fervor for his beliefs. I've always said that treasure hunters and archaeologists have infinitely more similarities than differences. My guess is that he was doing some research on us, hopefully trying to get the real story instead of the crap he was fed at school about us dynamiting wrecks and stealing all the gold with no regard for history.

Maybe he got what he needed already, maybe we'll all be written about in a book of his soon. If so, I hope he heard what we were trying to say. I heard what he was trying to say, but I still can't find the logic in it. That doesn't make me right, or him wrong. It just makes for very frustrating conversations.

 

[signumops]

Not many here on these forums would argue against the scientific methods devised by archaeologists, in fact, we enjoy their works and love to read about their discoveries. BUT, there are archaeologists who are scientists, and then there are archaeologists who take on the personae of evangelists, who wear the frock of dogma. These latter individuals are more devoted to their own self-supporting ethics. The issues of possession and collection become their domain, the domain of the priesthood. You can not argue with anyone who claims to act on a spiritual basis. It is pointless. And the more you fly in the face of their ethics, the more enraged they become.

We here on these forums are here primarily to share in discovery and the business of discovery. Furthermore, we understand that discovery can be, and must be, a business in many instances where serious discovery is to be had. Here in the U.S. and elsewhere around the globe, we are guaranteed a separation between church and state. However, there are some people who see archaeology strictly within the purview of their ethical dogma, one precept being that discovery itself can not be supported by a profit motive. There is no logical, scientific basis for this particular ethic, and we resent its application to our business, and to our pursuit of happiness. It is a dogmatic principal which some people have used for their own advantage under the guise of scientific principal.

If, in fact, you wish to practice your trade as a business, I can mind mine, and you can mind yours. If you wish to practice your trade as a spiritual adventure, be aware that I am in business and I am guaranteed, under law, that you will not mind my business for me.

 

[mariner]

I agree with VOC and hope that Alexandre will keep posting, though he seems to start with the view that Treasure Hunting and Treasure Hunters are inherently evil.

VOC, why use Drake as your image? I haven't noticed it before.

Mariner

 

[VOC]

VOC, why use Drake as your image? I haven't noticed it before.

Only because he is a local Hero, and just to remind the Spanish contigent on here what he looks like ! LOL

Will revert to the VOC Silver Ingots some day !

 

[NHBandit]

I'm just an onlooker who wishes he could do what some of you folks do and has to settle for the occasional coins & other artifacts I find by swinging my detector on dry land. But.. I have to question why these types even come here if not to stir the pot and incite arguments. This is, after all, a treasure hunting site. It's what we do whether swinging a detector on the beach, in a park or cellar hole or diving on a shipwreck. These self rightious types act like we are grave robbers if we take home the fruits of our labor even if it's one of thousands just like it and of no "historical" value. I once signed up for a ghost town forum and quickly discovered that alot of them have the same mentality. That if you don't knock the dirt off your shoes before you leave then you're guilty of disturbing the historical significance of that dirt & should be thrown in prison. Taking a rusty soup can should be punishable by death.. These people like Alexandre are directly responsible for making it harder & harder to enjoy our hobby with their frivolous & often misguided new laws & while I respect those of you who will miss the banter you had with him, I say good riddance to someone who dosn't share our hobby & dosn't belong here. It always burns me up when I read stories about some group of people such as the recent Black Swan case spending millions of their own dollars & countless hours of their time to locate lost treasure only to lose it to people who put ZERO effort into looking for it. Especially when it was done illegally by making backroom deals with our very own crooked politicians.. If not for the efforts & expenditures of the salvage company that treasure would still be lying on the bottom of the ocean so who are the real "pirates" here ? Need an example of the same thinking on dry land.. I'm an auto mechanic. If I lose some of my tools in the woods and they are found 200 years later is the finder a grave robber & a thief ? I hardly think so. But in many states you can be arrested for picking up arrowheads. What's the difference ? They aren't bones or anything sacred. They are just lost "tools" that were discarded either accidently or because they had become too worn out to be useful. Anyway I'm rambling now so I'll end by saying to Alexandre, don't let the door hit ya on your way out. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Don't let Alexandre fool you. He's still here and reading the threads. He'll be posting again soon enough. He won't be able to stop himself from throwing his opinion at everything.

 

[NHBandit]

Don't let Alexandre fool you. He's still here and reading the threads. He'll be posting again soon enough. He won't be able to stop himself from throwing his opinion at everything.

Speaking of people who take great pride in being the "turd in the punchbowl" what ever happened to SWR ? This place seems to be losing those guys who's only purpose for being here is to argue with the rest of us..