DUTCHMAN ORE?

[cactusjumper]

It has often been stated that the only acceptable proof for someone finding the LDM, would be the ore itself.

These could very well be pictures of that ore. It has been tested.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Terry Soloman]

Or, it could be ore from the Bradshaw or Weaver Mountains, or even the Vulture Mine near Wickenburg, where the Dutchman was a transporter and highgrader.. Just saying.

 

[Cubfan64]

Terry - I have yet to see a shred of evidence that Waltz was a transporter or highgrader or ever was even associated with the Vulture mine. To accept that as a possibility, do you have any documented proof?

 

[Terry Soloman]

Terry - I have yet to see a shred of evidence that Waltz was a transporter or highgrader or ever was even associated with the Vulture mine. To accept that as a possibility, do you have any documented proof?

It is well documented. Waltz left California in 1863, with the Peeples-Weaver Party (which included Henery Wickenburg) headed for the Bradshaw Mountains of Arizona Territory. Waltz was one of the earliest pioneer prospectors in the Bradshaw Mountain area. Waltz’s name appears on the Gross Claim which was filed in Prescott, Arizona Territory on September 21, 1863. His name also appears on a special territorial census taken in 1864.
On this census Waltz is listed as a miner, 54 years of age, and a native of Germany. Waltz’s name also appeared on a petition to territorial governor John N. Goodwin soliciting a militia to control the predatory raids of hostile Indians in the Bradshaw Mountains. Jacob Waltz’s name also appeared on the Big Rebel and the General Grant claims in the Bradshaw Mountains. Waltz was very active in the Bradshaw and Weaver Mountains between 1863-67, including the Vulture mine.

Dig a little deeper..

 

[Cubfan64]

Ummm, I'm well aware of all the things you posted above and have been for some time - what does any of that have to do with asking if you have seen documentation that Waltz ever had anything whatsoever to do with the Vulture mine in Wickenberg??

My guess is I've dug far deeper than the average person into Waltz's history.

 

[cactusjumper]

It is well documented. Waltz left California in 1863, with the Peeples-Weaver Party (which included Henery Wickenburg) headed for the Bradshaw Mountains of Arizona Territory. Waltz was one of the earliest pioneer prospectors in the Bradshaw Mountain area. Waltz’s name appears on the Gross Claim which was filed in Prescott, Arizona Territory on September 21, 1863. His name also appears on a special territorial census taken in 1864.
On this census Waltz is listed as a miner, 54 years of age, and a native of Germany. Waltz’s name also appeared on a petition to territorial governor John N. Goodwin soliciting a militia to control the predatory raids of hostile Indians in the Bradshaw Mountains. Jacob Waltz’s name also appeared on the Big Rebel and the General Grant claims in the Bradshaw Mountains. Waltz was very active in the Bradshaw and Weaver Mountains between 1863-67, including the Vulture mine.

Dig a little deeper..

Terry,

Many very good researchers have dug deeper, and they have all come up empty of the "evidence" you are claiming. Rumors are not evidence.

I would suggest you read "The Lost Dutchman Mine......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Dr. Glover, through his extensive research, eliminates the Vulture Mine as a source for Waltz's gold. Dr. Glover has established his credentials as a trusted
source for this kind of information.

He has named his sources and outlined his methodology for his conclusions, which is something you have been unable to do. Until you give us some background, or evidence, to support your conclusions, they will stay in the rumor folder.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[austin]

Think you may want to head over to the special collections dept. at the Arizona State Univ. library. They have the mine payroll records of many of the mines you speak of and the Dutchman's name is on a couple of them as an employee. I was a grad. student at Texas Tech, working with their History of Engineering Dept.(summer job), who had a contract with Arizona to do historic field work and I was searching records on my own looking for a disertation topic for a PhD.. Had checked copper records, then looked at gold just for the heck of it. On some new stuff that they had just gotten in(1982 at the time) was a payroll record for a mine or mines in Globe. I recognized the name, showed it to the lady there and she didn't care. I never gave it a second thought until tonight when I read this stuff, but I bet I'm not the only one that has seen that. Old parchment, poor handwriting, musty old records. Maybe there is more than one Jacob Waltz? Don't know, too old to care, have posted about the LDM, wouldn't really put too much stock in all that, but you feel free. Bet Terry is right on though...

 

[Cubfan64]

Think you may want to head over to the special collections dept. at the Arizona State Univ. library. They have the mine payroll records of many of the mines you speak of and the Dutchman's name is on a couple of them as an employee. I was a grad. student at Texas Tech, working with their History of Engineering Dept.(summer job), who had a contract with Arizona to do historic field work and I was searching records on my own looking for a disertation topic for a PhD.. Had checked copper records, then looked at gold just for the heck of it. On some new stuff that they had just gotten in(1982 at the time) was a payroll record for a mine or mines in Globe. I recognized the name, showed it to the lady there and she didn't care. I never gave it a second thought until tonight when I read this stuff, but I bet I'm not the only one that has seen that. Old parchment, poor handwriting, musty old records. Maybe there is more than one Jacob Waltz? Don't know, too old to care, have posted about the LDM, wouldn't really put too much stock in all that, but you feel free. Bet Terry is right on though...

That would be great to find austin, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if things like that existed, all I was asking Terry is if he could provide evidence that Waltz worked or highgraded at the Vulture mine in Wickenberg. Documents with Waltz's name on it associated with Globe would definitely be interesting to see although it's not the Vulture. I'm surprised that all the folks who had dug into the ASU records never came across those records over the years (even since 1982), but like I said, it's not impossible - there is alot to look through.

I live in NH, so my time out in AZ is always limited each year (at least until I retire). I suppose one of these years I should just take a week and spend the whole time at ASU digging through the records rather than just a day here and a day there. If you or anyone else ever come across those documents, it would be great to see copies posted.

Thanks. I still have yet to see anything associated with the Vuulture mine in Wickenberg with Waltz's name though.

 

[Springfield]

That would be great to find austin, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if things like that existed, all I was asking Terry is if he could provide evidence that Waltz worked or highgraded at the Vulture mine in Wickenberg. Documents with Waltz's name on it associated with Globe would definitely be interesting to see although it's not the Vulture. I'm surprised that all the folks who had dug into the ASU records never came across those records over the years (even since 1982), but like I said, it's not impossible - there is alot to look through....

I'd be surprised if many or any LDM aficionados are anxious to turn over rocks that may expose centipedes that want to bite them. Too little to gain, too much to lose.

 

[Terry Soloman]

That would be great to find austin, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if things like that existed, all I was asking Terry is if he could provide evidence that Waltz worked or highgraded at the Vulture mine in Wickenberg. Documents with Waltz's name on it associated with Globe would definitely be interesting to see although it's not the Vulture. I'm surprised that all the folks who had dug into the ASU records never came across those records over the years (even since 1982), but like I said, it's not impossible - there is alot to look through.

I live in NH, so my time out in AZ is always limited each year (at least until I retire). I suppose one of these years I should just take a week and spend the whole time at ASU digging through the records rather than just a day here and a day there. If you or anyone else ever come across those documents, it would be great to see copies posted.

Thanks. I still have yet to see anything associated with the Vuulture mine in Wickenberg with Waltz's name though.

I grew up hiking and prospecting the Superstitions, Weaver and Bradshaw mountains. All of the old timers that still worked the Bradshaws in the mid 1960s talked about Waltz being in cahoots with teamsters transporting ore from Prescott, Walnut Grove, Congress, Rich Hill, and Wickenburg. Think about it for a second folks, to this day no source of good gold has ever been found in the Superstitions. To the north, south and west, but none in the Supes.

 

[Cubfan64]

I grew up hiking and prospecting the Superstitions, Weaver and Bradshaw mountains. All of the old timers that still worked the Bradshaws in the mid 1960s talked about Waltz being in cahoots with teamsters transporting ore from Prescott, Walnut Grove, Congress, Rich Hill, and Wickenburg. Think about it for a second folks, to this day no source of good gold has ever been found in the Superstitions. To the north, south and west, but none in the Supes.

Well, I guess all I can say is if we believe all the old timers and the stories they told, we'd have the Lost Dutchman Mine in 100+ locations throughout AZ. I've read and heard my share of the stories. I've got no bone to pick with you Terry, but when you make the statement as a FACT that Waltz was a highgrader and transporter for the Vulture Mine, you've got to be able to back that up with more than 2nd and 3rd hand + stories and rumors. I'm not saying it's not possible, but elemental and geological analysis of the gold claimed to be from under Waltz's bed compared to that of the Vulture has been done and it's not close to being the same. Add to that the fact that nowhere has anyone yet come forward with any documentation that Waltz was ever associated with the Vulture, and for now I have to go with the preponderance of evidence suggesting there is no connection.

As far as no good gold having every been found in the Superstitions, all I can say is that that's incorrect. Perhaps you haven't seen any, but there are a decent (and quiet) number of folks who have believe it or not.

 

[sgtfda]

I'm in the middle of reading Dr Glovers book part one right now and I'm impressed. A must read!
Terry I have a friend who did ok in some of the Superstition washes near the lakes. That gold is washing out of the mountains from somewhere.

 

[cactusjumper]

I'm in the middle of reading Dr Glovers book part one right now and I'm impressed. A must read!
Terry I have a friend who did ok in some of the Superstition washes near the lakes. That gold is washing out of the mountains from somewhere.

Frank,

You should keep in mind that some of Thomas' information came from a bad source. On the other hand, he does have some impressive information which he got from reliable sources. Much of that is new.

Nice to see you at the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Well, I guess all I can say is if we believe all the old timers and the stories they told, we'd have the Lost Dutchman Mine in 100+ locations ....

.... you've got to be able to back that up with more than 2nd and 3rd hand + stories and rumors. ...

... the gold claimed to be from under Waltz's bed ...

... believe it or not.

We all defend our pet beliefs, no matter what. Stories, rumors, foregone conclusions. It would be interesting to see what a legitimate cold case detective would do with this LDM legend.

 

[sgtfda]

Joe like you I have a interest in other issues. The gold tests were interesting on the jewelry gold though. It's fun finding unexpected things in the mountains. Things you can see and touch.

 

[Cubfan64]

We all defend our pet beliefs, no matter what. Stories, rumors, foregone conclusions. It would be interesting to see what a legitimate cold case detective would do with this LDM legend.

I remember thinking that's exactly what I was going to get when I picked up "Killer Mountains" 7 or so years ago. I thought Glenn Magill was going to be that person with a private inspector background who could find the "undiscovered" proof that might lead to the LDM. It was a good book to read to peak my LDM interest, and at the end of it I was pretty convinced that he had indeed located the worked out site of the LDM. That was until I started reading more about his hunt and listening to other dutchhunters who had met him or worked with him.

A couple years ago at the Rendezvous a man (Baker Looney) who had been on Bluff Spring Mountain with Magill pretty much told everyone there that the book and their hunt amounted to a whole lot of nothing. I think Magill may have started out approaching the whole things as a detective would, but eventually he got sucked into "gold fever" too and at the least embelished his story.

Then again, after hearing Dr. Glover's talk at this year's Rendezvous about Sims Ely's book which came out in 1953, perhaps the author (Curt Gentry?) or the editor decided to embelish the book just so it would sell?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Baker told me personally, that everything after page 42 in "Killer Mountain" was made up by Kurt Gentry. They used to say, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".....Probably still do.

I believe that means that the story of how Glenn Magill got started on the LDM, and how he researched the story was the only truth in the book. Gentry knows what he is doing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Terry Soloman]

I'm in the middle of reading Dr Glovers book part one right now and I'm impressed. A must read!
Terry I have a friend who did ok in some of the Superstition washes near the lakes. That gold is washing out of the mountains from somewhere.

With all due respect Sarge, I have heard every story hundreds of times. The books are ALL pure speculation with just enough fact to make the speculation sound possible. There are thousands of "my friend found gold there" stories, but very little PROOF or photos of any -substantial- gold EVER washing out of the Superstition Mountains. I think it is fine that so many believe, but having hiked thousands of miles through them from 1967-1971, and doing my Eagle Scout conservation project along the Apache Trail, I personally know better.

There have been outlaw caches found - my Dad and Uncle Jack found one in 1967 that contained gold and silver coins, probably from a Globe stage coach robbery, but no one has EVER found a vein or producing mine. Ask the ASU, or U of A Geology departments, and they will tell you the geology is all wrong and the probability of recoverable gold there is nill. Of course, that doesn't stop the speculation and deaths every year, or the INDUSTRY that has grown around the legend.

In New York City they have "Three Card Monte," in Apache Junction, the have "The Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine." Same scam, different location.

 

[Cubfan64]

no one has EVER found a vein

Not possible to have an open minded discussion with someone who speaks in absolutes like the above. Always find it curious why someone would spend one second on a forum topic they have absolutely zero interest in.

 

[Springfield]

.... Always find it curious why someone would spend one second on a forum topic they have absolutely zero interest in.

They have an interest, but they're only waiting for a response that rings their bell. If it ever happens, they'll contact the poster privately. Nothing of true value will appear here.