JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Okay,

THE ONLY THING I ASK OF ANYBODY BEFORE POSTING, IS THAT THEY READ THE ENTIRE POST FIRST

(I know it is long, but it contains a lot of referenced information)

Here we go with one of the all-time most contentious subjects in all of the Treasure Hunting World:

Hidden/Lost Jesuit Treasures

Funny thing, as I write this, the movie National Treasure just came on! HAHAHA

Where to start, where to start, where to start? I guess I should start with what might constitute a Jesuit Treasure;

1. Gold and Silver Bars, Coins and the like.

2. Candlesticks, Monstrances, Ciboria, and various other Church Vestments made of precious metals in quantities large or small.

3. A combination of numbers 1 and 2.

4. The exploration of the areas, conversions of the heathens, and aid they rendered to those converted.

First, nobody can argue that number 4 is not absolutely true. Both the spiritual and exploratory work they did from 1608 until their expulsion in 1767 was a wonder for the ages. An example of how a small group of determined people can make such extraordinary advances in the knowledge base of mankind and bringing the light of God into the hearts of so many people in a frightening new world. One has only to read about Padre Kino SJ and his changing of world maps that previous to his explorations showed California as an island. He was the first to contradict that idea. Other testaments lie in all the missions that were manned by the tiniest number of Jesuit Fathers in some of the most hostile territory on Earth. Many of them gave their lives in the most gruesome manners imaginable at the hands of those that fought the changes they wanted to bring.

Next, I would like to talk about number 2. Of all the Jesuit Treasures, this possibility is the most believeable to most people who are of a more skeptical bent. While some diehards do not believe that even these are possible, I give you the words of one of the most DIE HARD of all Jesuit Treasure Skeptics: Father Charles W. Polzer SJ; in the Aug 1962 edition of Desert Magazine, as part of a larger article on preserving the old missions and other historically significant places he writes:

"Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections, were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe.

If any Jesuit Treasure has survived, it is physically possible that it is a cache of vestments, sacred vessels, and Church ornaments. (But we have yet to to review this possibility in terms of its' concealment and subsequent loss)."

While he does go on to say that no Church records have been found that verify this possibility, he DOES say that it is a possibility. For those of you who know Father Polzer's stance on the subject, it was indeed a revelation to me when I first read it.

We need to know why the Jesuits would want to amass such wonderous vestments in the first place. In some miserable mud hovel in an arid remote hostile desert setting, what would be the great need to have such things? Well, Father Johann (Juan) Nentvig SJ, in his book "Rudo Ensayo" spells it out so that even a person not having any secret Church knowledge can understand:

"Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius."

There you have it! A Jesuit Father himself quoting the very words of the Founder of the Jesuit Order: SAINT Ignatious Loyola! So, now we know WHY the Jesuits would want to accrue such beautiful and costly appointments, but do we have any evidence, other than what Father Polzer SJ calls a "possibility"? You bet your sweet bippy we do! We have the words of some of the Jesuit Fathers themselves. Why don't we start with our old friend, Father Johann Nentvig SJ (again from Rudo Ensayo):

"All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears."

That's pretty good. Anything else? You betcha! Why don't we read the words of Father Joseph Och SJ, in a passage from his journals (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767):

"Via pleasant roads we finally reached Ozumba, one of the beautiful estates belonging to the Puebla college, and two hours distant from the city. .... Then we were driven into the city of Puebla de los Angeles in several coaches amid the cheers of a great multitude, and lodged in the great, splendid College of the Holy Ghost, where we were entertained as guests for three days. … [Regarding the cathedral in Puebla.] The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service..................."

WOW! THAT'S AMAZING! Right from the horse's mouth. Let me here add a couple of points of fact so that the reader can make a more informed decision:

1. Father Nentvig's Journals are beyond reproach. There is no doubt he wrote the words that I have attributed to him.

2. Father Och's Journals are not 100% attributable. We know that he put them all together during his final years while he lived at the Jesuit College at Wurzburg, Bavaria. He passed away in 1773. Thirty-six years after his death in 1809, a book called "Der S.J. in Neumexico. Nachrichten von seinem Reisen nach dem Spanischen Amerika, seinem dortigen Auftenthalte vom Jahr 1755 bis 1767, und Rückkehr nach Europa 1768. Aus dessen eigenhändigen Aufsätzen" was published. These were the collected writings of Father Och SJ. His journals were kept at the Jesuit College in Wurzburg until most of the city was destroyed in an Allied Air Raid in 1945. I have not personally been able to locate them after that. So, while it is remotely possible that some parts of his journals MAY not have been written by Father Och, all one has to do is to read the entire book translated by Theodore E. Treutline to understand that it is HIGHLY unlikely that those were not the actual writings of Father Och SJ. I ONLY included this in the interest of being intellectually honest in what I say (unlike some). A final note about this journal's authenticity: While Lamar may have his doubts (whoever Lamar may be), the two most eminent Jesuit Historians of North America (Father Ernest J Burrus SJ and Father Charles W Polzer SJ have both worked on Theodore Treutline's Translation of "Der Glaubenspredigers ~" and neither of them seem to have any doubt whatsoever that those are the true and correct journals of Father Och SJ, and Theodore Treutline himself one of the most prolific translators of German Jesuit Writings did not doubt their veracity. I guess Lamar holds himself in very high regard. HAHAHA

Now. let us move on to numbers 1 and 3. There are no historical documents stating that the Jesuits possessed ANY stores of gold and/or silver bars, coins, etc. What we have, are a couple of documents that are SUPPOSED to be inventories of treasures that were hidden before the Jesuits were expelled from the New World during the night of 25-26 June 1767. Those who are familiar with histories written by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ, Father Charles W. Polzer SJ, Traditional Historians, and most history books detailing Colonial Spanish times in the New World are right now saying "THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE! King Charles III made certain that his orders to arrest all the Jesuits, march them to the sea, and ship them all back to Europe, were sealed and COMPLETELY secret until the day they were to be arrested! WRONG! Well, not completely wrong. They were supposedly a secret to everybody that received the King's Letters. There are a few little niggling facts that keep getting omitted from most of that history you have read. Surprised? I was!

First, here is a bit from the official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico:

"In 1765, King Charles III of Spain took a large chunk out of the wealthy mining barons of Guanajuato, and in 1767 discontent arose when the Jesuits were expelled from Spanish lands, since both the wealthy owners and the poor miners held allegiance to the Jesuits."

While this in itself is not a smoking gun (so to speak), it does show that it MAY have been possible for the Jesuits to have received some advanced warning from those seculars who had allegiances to the Jesuits.

Here is something a more concrete. It's not a quote or something vague. It is simply an historical fact that keeps being either omitted or ignored by traditional historians:

The Jesuits knew without doubt what was coming! How do we know this? Very simply, the Jesuit Expulsions from all of Spain's Holdings around the world was not the only nor indeed the first of the Jesuit's Expulsions:

1. Due to Jesuit Involvement in Portuguese Rebellions, they were expelled from all of Portugal's lands around the world on 06 July 1758. A full nine years before their Spanish Expulsion!

2. Due to the same intrigues, in November of 1763, the French King dissolved the Jesuit Order in all French Holdings worldwide. Four years before their Spanish Expulsion!

3. Due, again, to more of the same intrigues, Spain and it's colonies (European), and it's principalities (Naples) arrested all the Jesuits during the night of 1-2 April 1767, and in Spain's Holdings worldwide on the night of 25-26 June 1767.

4. After a Papal Threat, the Kingdom of Parma expelled the Jesuits and dissolved their Order in 1768.

So, due to the earlier expulsions from everywhere else in the world (except Russia and Prussia) by the year 1763, there is little doubt that the Jesuit Order knew FAR in advance of 25-26 June 1767 that the very same fate would befall them in Spanish Lands in time. They had YEARS to hide all their great accumulated wealth.

Now, we move on to examine one of those supposed Jesuit Treasure "proofs". It has come to be known as the Molina Document and the associated Molina Map. It was said to be the product of a Sister Michaela Molina. While she was serving at an Archive in Rome, she supposedly came across a document that detailed a HUGE Cache of Jesuit Treasure that was buried near the Tumacacori Mission in the Santa Cruz River Valley. She was said to have hand copied the document and kept it a secret until she moved to the United States. There are a couple of problems with that document:

1. There is no extant record of any Sister Michaela Molina. There is a Molina Family that lives nearby, and their family history says there was a Michaela Molina. Nothing hard though.

2. The document and map were unknown until about 1933 when John D. Mitchell wrote about it. We know from the Stone Maps story that it could have been around, but kept a secret for many years before that, because of the nature of the information contained in the document. It is the contention of the National Park Service and the Jesuit Order that John D. Mitchell either had the document made or was defrauded by someone who knew he was a treasure hunter. The NPS gives many reasons for the document to be labeled a hoax/fraud. The main ones are the orientation of the page and the writing. They seem to miss the part of the story about where Sister Molina HAND COPIES her document from the original.

Here is a link to the TNet Thread on this subject:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41291.msg1842925/topicseen.html#msg1842925

That's about all for now, as I am VERY tired of typing.

Best-Mike

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Ok, Mike, now you have left me nothing to say.


B

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Mike for starting the thread, perhaps we can put to rest the modern denials of any and all such treasures - and the mining too, looking forward to that thread as well.
<2 thumbs up!>
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

bump

 

[gollum]

HAHAHA

SPECULATION? I suppose that you infer that the entire post is best described by meaning number 4 below:

spec⋅u⋅la⋅tion
  /ˌspɛkyəˈleɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [spek-yuh-ley-shuhn] Show IPA

–noun

1. the contemplation or consideration of some subject: to engage in speculation on humanity's ultimate destiny.
2. a single instance or process of consideration.
3. a conclusion or opinion reached by such contemplation: These speculations are impossible to verify.
4. conjectural consideration of a matter; conjecture or surmise: a report based on speculation rather than facts.
5. engagement in business transactions involving considerable risk but offering the chance of large gains, esp. trading in commodities, stocks, etc., in the hope of profit from changes in the market price.
6. a speculative commercial venture or undertaking.

Since your grand offering here is simply to flame, I guess that should be my retort to you! Since you have NO KNOWLEDGE of the subject, and don't seem to be able to grasp facts from simple language, I will make it simple.....JUST FOR YOU!

FACTS FOR DUMMIES:

1. In the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves (very precise descriptions of church wealth), many Sonoran Frontier Churches possessed adornments that were equal to or greater than many European Cathedrals (admitted to by the greatest Jesuit Treasure Skeptic of them all Father Polzer SJ). If you have ever seen a European Catholic Cathedral, you would know that would be quite an impressive feat.

2. When the Spanish Authorities arrested EVERY Jesuit on the night of 25-26 June 1767, the greatest majority of all those church adornments were not there. How do we know this? Simple; Lamar has even said it! Father Polzer SJ said it as well. Everything that was found when the Jesuit Arrests took place was inventoried. It was again listed in the journals of Fray Junipero Serra, because it was he, beginning in 1768, who was tasked with bringing some of the confiscated Jesuit Wealth to help in founding the Missions of California. If everything that the Jesuits REALLY possessed were there, then why in several of the Jesuit Fathers' Journals do they state that they were harshly questioned as to the whereabouts of the "rest of their wealth"? It was simply because the Spanish seculars had been in the Jesuit Missions and Churches. They had seen all their accrued wealth which was not there at the time of their arrests.

Hopefully this helps for those of simpler intellects among us. Maybe next time you could inject some knowledge you may have rather than just gainsaying a subject showing your complete lack of knowledge of the subject at hand. I mean, at least I provided referenced quotes from the exact people who were in a position to know firsthand what wealth the Jesuits Possessed. What did you give? I didn't think so....

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

There is no argument that the Jesuits had gold and silver vestments in their mission churches. Since you know the Jesuit history so well, can you tell us how, other than mining and enslaving the natives, they could have acquired those artifacts? If you can, please name sources, as you have done with your side of the debate.

Thank you,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

Simple. The same way the rest of the Catholic Church gets much of its' great wealth; through tithing, donations, and through properties willed to the Church. There are always people who think that they can buy their way into Heaven.

Even if I were to concede the mining aspect of the Jesuit Order argument (which I don't), the fact that the Jesuits had, in some cases, enormous herds of cattle, horses, mules, burros, and sheep. They also raised large amounts of crops. All of these they sold to the miners and settlers of the New World. I remember reading a quote about the 49'ers gold rush which basically stated that "The guy who sold the shovels made many times the money of 99% of the people that used them to dig for gold."

Sorry about the lack of references, but the subject is so well known and taught it is pretty much a given. The only activities of the Jesuit Order that require in depth digging to find the truth are:

1. Jesuit Treasures
2. Jesuit Mining
3. Jesuit Political Intrigues
4. Jesuit Slaveholding and Trading

SWR,

RIF (Reading Is Fundamental). Either that, or "Just Say No!" All I have to say.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Simple. The same way the rest of the Catholic Church gets much of its' great wealth; through tithing, donations, and through properties willed to the Church. There are always people who think that they can buy their way into Heaven."

Your answer falls far short of the realities of the early missionaries. Their major income came from the things you mentioned. They used the indigenous natives who, often, begged the Jesuits to send a priest to live among them, to raise the crops and livestock you mentioned. In that work, they were often very successful and produced much more than they or the natives needed.

They did not allow the people to sell that excess, but did sell it themselves. They insisted on payment in gold and silver. The mines would mark those gold and silver payments with the names of the priests to whom it was owed. They, in turn, sent it to Mexico City. You may feel that their benefactors, and there were many, were trying to buy there way into heaven, but that turns a very complex belief system into very simplistic terms that probably never crossed the minds of the true believers.

I understand that you become frustrated that your arguments are not accepted by those who have another view of history. One of the reasons for that, is that each of your points can be countered by historical facts. What you always see as "fact" is often coincidence.

I'm glad you started this topic, and look forward to having a good debate.

One of my sources for the above information is "Missionaries Miners & Indians" by Evelyn Hu-DeHart. Professor Hu-DeHart is not really a big fan of the Jesuits, so don't go there. If you haven't read it, you should.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

There is definitely something to be said for the wealth's of the Church of Rome - while religious leaders may think that churches need the allure and shining examples of gold and silver to give testament to God, this is far from what the Bible actually speaks about. The Vatican has more jewels, and gold, and silver and treasures than any other, and are considered the second largest company in the world (it was first until they paid millions for all their lawsuits).

However, back to the Jesuits. (my personal favorite topic on the Jesuits is proof of their mining activities.)

And, to that end, I will bring up, at this particular time, Mineral de Pozos.

There were the native people there, some who's ancestors are still there.

However, in the middle of the 16th Century, the Jesuits moved to San Luis, to evangalize the local population - conveniently right after the
discovery of silver in Zacatecas. The locals brought them "gifts" which they were mining with simple methods.

The Jesuits started their own operations, and continued until 1767 - that's the year they were expelled.

http://www.mineraldepozos.com/eng/about/history.htm


B

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

The same way the rest of the Catholic Church gets much of its' great wealth; through tithing, donations, and through properties willed to the Church.

Isn't it peculiar, that among the considerable trove of records we possess today from the frontier days of the Jesuits, that we have the scantest handful of WILLS? As far as I could determine, less than a dozen exist to be found - now a suspicious person might start to suspect those incriminating documents have been kept from public consumption. Or are we to believe, that either a few were all that were ever recorded, or that it is just happenstance that those particular types of documents are lost to us?

SWR wrote

Wow. What a job of speculative* maybe they did…maybe they did not

Want an example of a Jesuit actually reporting that he DID hide the ornaments of the church during a period of violence? Here you go

My Reverend Father Gaspar Stiger,<snip>
I came to Terrenate yesterday to hide the ornaments of the church and a family.
Terrenate, November 28, 1751
Your Humble Servant, Keller
If Your Reverence should see the Father Visitor and Juan, give them my affection.
letter from Ignacio Xavier Keller SJ to Gaspar Stiger SJ, Terrenate, November 28, 1751

(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-49, page 2)

If you are expecting to see a written record of such an incident, done by a Jesuit who was suddenly killed soon afterwards, your odds are very long indeed. Is anyone going to now take the stand that the Jesuit fathers (and lay brothers) would be so careless of Church properties as to NOT hide them away in safety, during periods of Indian unrest, revolutions, even robbers approaching?

The Jesuit padres were not just holding the wealth of the Church either - they were the people who handled the payrolls of the soldiers, lay brothers etc as well as municipal monies and were often entrusted with them for safekeeping. Is anyone going to take the stand that they did not ever have possession of these monies, or that they were so careless that they failed to hide it away in times of trouble?

Our modern Jesuit apologists would have us believe that the sainted padres never, ever soiled their persons with such dirty things as mines and mining, and never, ever soiled their reputations with treasures - pointing to the personal vows of poverty as "proof" and the LACK of documentation recording such activities supposedly proves it beyond all debate. The Jesuits were not stupid, even in their correspondences they frequently made use of Latin rather than a common modern language, which serves to make it un-readable to most people. Their activities in such seemingly un-missionary activities as mining and even BANKING are in fact documented to some degree. Anyone want to take the position that the Jesuits were never involved in banking?

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I speak from firsthand knowledge when I say that there are always people who think they can buy their way into heaven. My ex's father is a total fanatic. He sees no value in willing any of his money (and there is a LOT) to any of his children. He will instead will everything to the Church. It was also a very common practice of nobility to give large donations to the church to receive blessings.

For the common folk, you are absolutely correct in saying that to them, giving to the church was simply what you were supposed to do. The same is true today as it was 300 years ago.

Another reason to donate precious ornaments to the missions and churches was ego (again, same as today). A person could point to silver candlesticks or a golden chalice and show their friends "Look what I gave to the church!" On this note, I will say that I have SEVERAL references that describe how people who were closely allied with the Jesuit Order came quickly to wealth and higher position. While some can be attributed to writers that had an axe to grind with the Jesuits, there are others that are beyond reproach. The opposite can also be shown to be true: When Capt. Juan Mateo Manje complained in a letter to the Jesuit Visitador General that Jesuit Priests were denying the Spanish Settlers services in favor of the Indios, he was immediately called in, tried, and was sent to prison. He was later exonerated, but not before suffering great hardship. That reference was from Father Ernest J Burrus SJ's book "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona"

Also Joe, almost every Visitador General forbade Jesuits from ANY "business for profit" ventures. Nearly every set of precepts had a passage or two devoted to this topic. Reference: Father Charles W. Polzer "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" The main reason for a rule of conduct to warrant being escalated to an Ecclesiastical Precept, is that the "rule" was being violated by more than one Priest on a regular basis.

Joe, here is a quote from Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts......" on this subject. When writing about the negotiation of precepts and laws to be enacted during one Jesuit Conclave we read:

Quite frankly, the commentator help "little regard for precepts about business matters." If the business involved sufficient sums, the offender would have sinned greatly against his vows any way."

REALLY? Little regard for a precept? That says a lot about Jesuits and how they observed the rules set down for them to follow!

Beth,

I wanted to let this topic run its' course a bit before delving into Jesuit Mining Claims. THAT is a topic that garner a lot of hate mail from the Church/Jesuit Supporters and General Naysayers.

I want to say this as well that will be repeated when I get to Jesuit Mining:

One of the biggest reasons in the argument arsenal of the Jesuit Treasure/Mining naysayers is the VERY simple fact that no official documents of the era describe such wealth, the hiding of such wealth, or any mining activities. We have letters showing all about Jesuit life, but nothing that supports such wild accusations! OR ARE THERE?

ACTUALLY.....I will state the following ECCLESIASTICAL PRECEPT in it's own post, because it is one of the most important clues in uncovering some of the most hidden aspects of Jesuit Activities and Behaviours.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

That's ok with me - it was just the next thing I was going to post when we were on the other thread.

I'm willing to abide by your guidelines - I have enough stuff to post that it could get boring anyway.


B

 

[gollum]

Here we go,

This is once again quoted from Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts..." These were set down by Father Hernando de Cabrero, Visitor on 20 September 1662:

"#17: Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about THINGS THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES."

It does not take a church insider or even a conspiratorialist to understand what this means! "WRITE YOUR LETTERS ABOUT STUFF WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE DOING IN CODE, BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE THAT WHEN WE DON'T WE GET IN TROUBLE!"

So...........we now know that whenever a Jesuit wrote a letter about something they didn't want to get in trouble for, or something they didn't want anybody else to read, THEY WROTE THE LETTER IN CODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I repeated that same statement in a few ways just to make sure the point completely sinks in!

Is there any wonder why we can find no outright statements in any Church/Mission Records or letters about ANYTHING they were not allowed to do? Not to any thinking person!

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"The Jesuits started their own operations, and continued until 1767 - that's the year they were expelled."

That's a very good story, from a town that is coming back from near extinction. They have picked a great hook for tourism, controversy.

So we are to believe that the Jesuits were running a mining operation under the noses of the military and the local mine owners? That "fact" would have given the mine owners the amunition they needed to have the Jesuits kicked out more than a century earlier. The Jesuits were the only wall between the Indians and the mine owners, who wanted to enslave them.

Can't really buy that story as......historical.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Not asking you to "buy" anything - there are, at least, 11 more sites that talk about it, besides this town's site.

That's ok - the discussion can wait.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"At around the same time, Jesuits arrived in San Luis to evangelize the local population. Legend has it that they brought the priests silver that they mined near the military outpost in an area know today as Santa Brígida (Saint Brigit in English). The mineral wealth was at the surface and the indigenous inhabitants had a very simple operation to extract it. The Jesuits began to mine the area using existing European techniques and continued to do so until 1767 when they were expelled from all the Spanish Realm."

Their story is still considered "legend", like "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow".

I will be happy to visit your 11 other sites. Do any of them name the priest who was at Pozo?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Roadquest]

tag

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
I gotta step in here a little.....

Mike quoted Father Polzer:

"#17: Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about THINGS THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES."

And SWR replied:

You are just speculating they wrote in CODE...but, in actually, if they had to write something...they had to do so that the person they were writing about would not UNDERSTAND the letter...not would not be able to READ the letter

I propose a 3rd view.... What if the letter had real content that was " sprinkled " with code, and one would have to read more than 1 letter to get the complete code. That way the letter would appear normal, and if one had the code ( which I doubt a organization like the Jesuits would EVER allow that to happen, and if it happened they would simply change the code ) it would take more than just a single letter to decipher. Also, since no one has the complete code ( except maybe a few of the modern day Jesuits ) today it would lead credence to just how good it truly is....Maybe the one deciphering the code was not the intended reader, but a clerk or scribe ??

PLL

 

[Kentucky Kache]

They said write your letter in code? I must have missed that quote. I read "If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it." You just made up the CODE part. What if the person whom the letter was written about had the CODE. Not understanding what is written and not being able to read the text are two different things...logically speaking

You are just speculating they wrote in CODE...but, in actually, if they had to write something...they had to do so that the person they were writing about would not UNDERSTAND the letter...not would not be able to READ the letter

I see you don't understand the meaning of "code." Code doesn't have to mean anything as fancy as the Beal Code. It could be as simple as using words and phrases known only to two parties. It could be as simple as calling a fork a spoon.

 

[gollum]

Notwithstanding SWR's flamingly inept input, which I won't bother to answer because of it's flaming ineptitude (get a thesaurus). I can't help it! I even have to make up a couple of new words for this! SWR, by your post, you have explored new heights of mental midgetudiocity ( a new word that describes tininess of mental aptitude and audacity of speech). HAHAHA


Pegleglooker,

I don't think that your theory is very workable (at least not in those days). You have to remember how phenomenally slow the post was back then. For the Visitor General to wait for several letters in order to get the full meaning of ONE subject I doubt it was used like that.

............and by writing in code, I don't necessarily mean "33hq9 b5i?/". Its easy to see if one knows anything about Jesuit History. Not only were the Jesuits the founders of most modern Earth Sciences (geography, geology), they also were the masters of cartography and mathematics. Anybody who knows mathematics is also a natural cryptographer. The science of Cryptography is mostly based in mathematics.

Here is an example of a code written during the period we are speaking of. It was written by Francis Bacon in about 1600:

Francis Bacon created one of the more interesting substitution ciphers. He used two different type faces slightly differing in weight (boldness). He broke up his ciphertext into 5 character groups, each of which would represent one character in his plaintext. Depending on which characters of the group were bold, one could determine the plaintext character using the following table (* stands for a plain character and B for a bold character)


A=***** G=**BB* M=*BB** S=B**B* Y=BB***
B=****B H=**BBB N=*BB*B T=B**BB Z=BB**B
C=***B* I=*B*** O=*BBB* U=B*B**
D=***BB J=*B**B P=*BBBB V=B*B*B
E=**B** K=*B*B* Q=B**** W=B*BB*
F=**B*B L=*B*BB R=B***B X=B*BBB

Our same secret message as above would appear thusly (Bacon's bold and plain characters were less obvious than those below):

To be or not to be that is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to
suffer the slings and arrows of
outrageous fortune or to take arms
against a sea of troubles and by
opposing end them?

To decipher, we just break the characters into groups of 5 and use the key above to find the plaintext message.

M E E T M E B E
Tobeo rnott obeth atist heque stion Wheth ertis

H I N D T H E G
noble rinth emind tosuf ferth eslin gsand arrow

Y M A F T E R S
sofou trage ousfo rtune ortot akear msaga insta

C H O O L
seaof troub lesan dbyop posin gendt hem?

The preceding code is a prime example of how a letter could be read with one meaning, but when read by someone who was in a position to know the letter was encoded, had a COMPLETELY different message. Francis Bacon was, like many Jesuits, a great mathematician.

Best-Mike