Ulloas Trinidad

[1ripper1]

Ulloa's Trinidad

I am looking for more information on the legend of Ulloa's ship Trinidad that was possibly set adrift off Oceanside in the mid 1500's. I am interested because I grew up in Oceanside and in the winter of 1972, on a beach south of the pier, what I would imagine was the side of ship was uncovered due to heavy surf. I walked on the timbers and have always wondered what it was...any information would be helpful.

1ripper1

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

I can't help you on Ulloa's ship, but I will address a few basics: I too live near the Ocean, up here @ Monterey Bay. There are numerous ship-ribs that get exposed during severe erosion. That is nothing new, and there is no specific reason they are anything from the "Explorer period" of CA. Just simply lots of ships have gone aground, all up and down CA, over the years. Sure, they may look wickedly old, but salt water and erosion will do that to a wooden ship after only 100 or whatever years, me thinks.

But yes, although the first permanent land-hold (actual permanent habitation) of CA was San Diego, in 1769, there had already been something like 200 yrs. of various ships passing by, in the Explorer period, and Manilla Galleon period. The Manilla Galleon period, for instance, had 1 to 2 ships per year, for 150+ yrs., travel past our alta CA coast, on their way back to the mother country - Mexico. It has been said that they didn't stop, d/t this was the final week or two of a months long journey, and there was nothing here to stop for, blah blah blah. But of the few mariners logs that do survive from this period, one inparticular records how .... when they went through the channel islands, indian set out from shore, in canoes, to trade with them. Apparently there was already a cottage industry of this sort, and the indians had learned to put out sentries for passing ships, so they could paddle out to get trade goods, etc...

This is substantiated by things like the "Burton Mound" in Santa Barbara. Archaeologists found coins and European trade good items there, that WAY predated the Santa Barbara mission. I think it was coins back to the 1600s, etc... Since there were no permanent European footholds by this time, its obvious that trading had been going on from passing ships.

Obviously that was not your question, but I just threw it in here, to lend to the point that it wasn't just the "colorful" recorded Explorer journeys that occured (Drake, etc...) but also other lesser explorers, pearl hunters, etc... that ventured up this far, or passed by on return trips from the orient, etc....

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

I wont get into the Trinidad debate; I've heard that story for over 20 years--and I don't believe a word. As to the ship's timbers, are you aware the first pier in Oceanside was at Wisconsin Ave? Were the timbers you found located near that street?

 

[1ripper1]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Actually they were south of Wisconsin and north of Cassidy...just south of Buccaneer Beach. I'm pretty sure they were the side of a ship of some sort...they were curved planks, not posts or pier supports. So you are saying the JJ Markey finds are not true? I read at the Oceanside Public Library about the cave on Camp Pendleton with the skeletons and the find of coins somewhere in the valley. There were several articles and books available on the subject in their "California Room." That was probably in 1982 or 1983. I also know that there was some activity in Oceanside in 1972 as my junior high school yearbook cover featured a cartoon of our mascot scuba diving and finding a treasure chest with "Trinidad" carved into it. To be honest, I would really like to know the location of the cave where the skeletons and artirfacts were allegedly found and if anybody else saw the timbers. I've never really done any serious research on it but it seems that there is not very much information available. I'd be interested to know why you don't believe any of it.

1ripper1

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Ripper:
I've detected that area for 10 years but have never seen exposed ship's timbers; only exposed rocks about 150 yrds. offshore. One 'problem' is that the beach from O/S pier to the power plant inlet in CBD has periodlically been 'created' by the mechanical importation of sand every few years--to keep the tourists happy.

Coincidentally, I'll be in that area in about an hour. I'll ask around and during the week I'll make contact with the O/S Historical Society and the Librarian--and inquire about ship's timbers being seen (and where) along that beachfront.

As for the cave on Pendleton, I don't believe anyone would ever get permission to 'explore' that area due to the 'activity' that is constant on the base.

As for the claim the ship has been found--or artifacts from that ship have been found, I choose not to get into a 'flaming' conversation. I will say that over 20 years ago, I first heard of it and over the next 20 years I've concluded (lets just say) that I have no further interest.
Don........

 

[C. Myers]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Having been born and raised in Oceanside since 1956 and living only 6 blocks from Buccaneer Beach..... I am intrigued that this conversation has arisen, as a couple of us in our Treasure Seekers group were just discussing this.

Back in the early 70's there was such a major low tide that you were able to see the ribs of a sunken ship that is located approximately 1 and 1/2 mile off shore of Buccaneer beach. I believe that if you research the archives of the Blade Citizen newspaper (now known as The North County Times) you should be able to see photo's that were used on the front page of the newspaper.

And Don, you are right. The original pier was located at Wisconsin Street.

As far as Camp Pendleton goes. The mystery cave is still a mystery. The only proven thing is that a gentlemen did get permission to detect along the Santa Margarita River (probably in the early 1990's) and he did find some gold that looked like little cigars. Eventually they found that the native Americans would melt down the gold and place it in bamboo to cool - thus giving the shape of little cigars.

Good luck trying to get on base to hunt. It is all in who you know and how much paperwork they want.

It is pretty easy to get to Camp Del Mar Beach and hunt the beach....... but to hunt other areas of the base...... that takes some time to do.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Good info on the North County Times.
Also, I have seen a hugh ship's timber (rib) in the lagoon outlet just north of the Army-Navy Academy and south of Saint Malo Beach--though it has been sanded over now for a couple of years.

 

[C. Myers]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

A few months ago, a friend who is a diver, and I were discussing this ship. I will have to go back through my favorites and see if I can relocate the information that I had regarding this.

Went to Buccaneer early this morning to detect and there were three others already there! Guess I will have to go in the evening as everyone is leaving.

Went to the North side of the pier yesterday, besides 10 people from our group, there were about 4 other detectors out working. Did manage to find $1.18. Mostly in dimes. No jewelry.

When do you go out Don?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

1ripper1, you ask: " I'd be interested to know why you don't believe any of it."

Because,

1) ship ribs are occasionally seen on ANY California beach. There are hundreds of beached ships, that are from well into the western era (say .... 1850s up to the present) on our coasts. To see ship ribs does not mean anything. Ie.: it doesn't back up a legend at all. If it did back up a legend, then I can lead you to not only Ulloa's ship, but also Drakes ship, Pancho villa's ship, Pegleg's ship, etc... right here in Monterey bay Yup, several ship ribs get exposed at various times from non-descript fishing or commercial boats of various shapes and sizes. Some look impressively old, but may only be late 1800s vintage.

2) Re.: the cave thing: Treasure lores get steeped in superstition. Caves with skeleton stories are a dime a dozen. It is just human nature to spin stories that .......after awhile, are just taken as fact, d/t the human instinct to want so hard to believe in treasure. And when you try to pin down the source of a treasure legend, it's always someone who told someone who told someone who told someone, who told ..... well, you get the pix. I wish I had a dollar for everyone who stopped me over the last 30+ yrs. in the field, with a "sure-fire" treasure spot, story of conquistadors who buried gold in "them thar hills", Juaquin Murrieta's secret hideout, etc... etc.... I'm not saying that all treasure leads are just embelished lore, but c'mon!

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

The "Trinidad" story is one that repeats on TN. Here's one previous thread from a year ago: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=74257.0

C.M: I was at Buc. Beach park this AM. Another old geeser TH-er was there, and the tell-tale sign of another TH-ers footprints were already there. Where those your parallel tracks?
Don.....

 

[C. Myers]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Did not even get out of the car once I saw you folks there!

But am thinking that since it is still overcast might go hit a beach anyway. Found my very first gold ring at Wisconsin. Might go there...... will cruise and see what appeals to me!

 

[gollum]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

There are a couple of problems with the Ulloa Story (as told):

1. The gold on board was supposed to be from Cortez' sacking of Tenochtitlan. The problem there is that most of the gold that was there in 1519 was already gone before Cortez' return in 1521. This was evidenced by logs and letters of the period in which was described that Cortez and his men spent six weeks after their victory torturing Aztec Survivors to find out where they hid their treasure. All they found out was that it was taken North.

2. Why would Ulloa need gold on an expedition to an area where there were no settlements or missions? Ulloa was not going to be taking the gold to Manilla. There was no reason in the world to carry that much gold.

NOW......Have people found Spanish coins washed ashore at Trestles? You betcha! Are there a couple of ballast piles near Trestles? You betcha! It looks like a Caravelle and not a Galleon though. Have gold and silver coins been found along the riverbed behind Trestles? According to a certain Docent at a certain museum, Yep! Have Spanish buttons and paraphenalia been found with metal detectors along the firebreaks in the hills behind Trestles? Yes, as well!

It was a very active Spanish Colonial Area. The remains of Ulloa, along with armour and such may have actually been found in a cave. Was there $5-$10 million in gold. I highly doubt it. Maybe gold and pearls from trading with the Indians, but not in great quantities.

Best-Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

I've found Spanish reales on the beach here after storms. Does this mean I found Ulloa's shipwreck?

I don't doubt Spanish reales have been found on beaches in So. CA too. Anywhere Europeans came ashore, traded with indians (and eventually set up the missions), it's possible to find a reale. Does that mean those reales are tied into treasure lore? Not necessarily. I'm pushing about 50 reales thus far in CA. Oldest was only 1750s though. A few of the reales I've found had indiscernable dates though (worn off, cut in half, surf-tumbled to death, etc...). THOSE are the ones that I'm CERTAIN date to the time of Ulloa, therefore providing certain proof that he made it up as far as Monterey, and crashed here with all his gold! Woohoo!

 

[1ripper1]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Thank you everyone for extending your expertise to me. I am still fascinated with the story and am very curious why there is little info on the net about Markey and his "alleged" finds...the accounts I read in the library 25 years ago where well documented with pictures and sources, but I guess they could have been "so and so said.." stories. One account said there were two surviving sailors who didn't get dysentery but couldn't sail the ship alone so they cut it loose and walked back to Mexico City. One kept a diary of the experience which was eventually stored in the archives in Spain, and I think it was Markey who after much negotiating was granted access at which time he translated the account. In the writings, the man said after they killed one of the women by bashing her on the head with a rock, the others slowly died because of the water from the lake which was fouled by the Indians living around it. They had taken the water back to the ship and all on board drank from it causing all to become deathly ill. When it was clear they were all going to die the two men decided to take what gold they could carry and bury it on a hillside in the area which was very distinct and of which they sketched a picture of. Markey, (or someone) took the sketch back to where the cave was and supposedly they could tell right away which hill it was. They went to exactly where the man said the gold was buried and started digging and within inches of the top of the soil, found a leather bag containing Spanish coins. Now this is just my 25 year old recollection of what I read in the library and over the years I thought about it and never really tried to check it out until recently and could find nothing of the accounts that I had read and I found that odd. Where are those books? Where are those newspaper articles? hmmmm...anyway, if you are out in the San Luis Rey valley there is a very distinct hill there and I always thought that it could be the sight of the "alleged" discovery. It is called "the Sleeping Indian" and if there were no buildings or such, I think that would stand out. Anyway, it would be interesting to know if the account of the two men does exist and the sketches...and I still want to know where is the information I read...why is there so little info on JJ Markey?...google him. Not much....could it be the State is heavily invested in Cabrillo Just a thought. Thanks again for taking the time to answer...someone knows a lot more than they are saying.

1ripper1

 

[C. Myers]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

ripper -

Are you still in Oceanside? If not, I will go to the public library and do some research for you - both on the books that you are talking about and I will also research the old newspaper articles for some photo's of the ships ribs. Gee, that will be fun, as those old papers are located on microfiche films.

Let me know -

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Hey gang,
I have been VERY into this story as well and have found a pic with Markey and 5 or 6 skulls in front of him. I am currently trying to find it. I also found a nwsppr article from the LA Times 4/19/59, that goes on about a " neanderthal " skull and talks about the coins that were found. There were supposedly about 2000 coins found. Just yesterday I went to UCR and looked up a Jstor article that state's the hill is W of the mission.I wiil try to post the pic as soon as I can. It's been bugging the h@!! out of me that I can't find it.

Thankx
PLL

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

here's som e more stuff that I was able to find.
(Please excuse the following writing it's a computer translated version )

Francisco de Ulloa

Ulloa sailed from Acapulco in July 1539 with three vessels. The captain of Santa Agueda 240 barrels, was Ulloa. The other two vessels were much smaller, 75 barrels of Trinidad and St. Thomas 60. Costa northward found a storm in which the St. Thomas succumbed with all its crew. The other two ships continued their course, penetrated into the Gulf of California to meet with a sandy beach and with strange currents. They had reached the Colorado River delta with its strong flow of water penetrated the great tides of the Gulf of internal changes that reach up to 12 meters. Ulloa named the place as Ancon San Andres for having arrived there that day, and Sea Bermejo, a reddish color that gave the waters of Colorado. Costa south, doubled the Cabo San Lucas and continued north on the west coast confirming that this was a peninsula, which would be resisted by cartographers for centuries that followed drawing to California as an island.

Little or nothing was known of the trip Ulloa northward, but until 1926 that appeared in some letters to Cortez in the Archives of the Indies. (1) The latest, dated April 5, 1540 at Cedros Island is very important because it indicates sent to the Santa Agueda with this letter back to him and Acapulco, with the Trinidad and sufficient food, continue north. (1)

How far that latitude Ulloa reached on their journey in search of the Strait of Aniane? The mapping indicates the time until about 160 kilometres north of Cedros Island and here have relied most historians to dismiss the explorations Ulloa northward. Bernal Diaz said that Ulloa returned to Manzanillo and legal documents in Spain, Cortez refers to him as if still alive in 1543.

There is however, the statement by the pilot of the Trinity, Paul Salvador Hernandez who returned to Acapulco in an open boat after several months of sailing. Hernandez said under oath that Trinidad had to be abandoned before the death of most of the crew in August 1540. Embark on a boat, said to have Boga Acapulco, a journey of nearly two thousand nautical miles! The Dr.JJ Markey of Oceanside, a town located about 60 miles north of San Diego, California, based on the addresses of Hernandez and an accompanying map, succeeded in 1957, found buried a zurrones leather with almost two thousand coins Spanish six skeletons and a skull European race of the department of anthropology at the University of California at Los Angeles have identified at least 400 years. (2)

These facts seem to confirm that Ulloa was the discoverer of Alta California.

1. Ulloa The journey so far has been recounted in his diary that reproduces Rasmussio travel and has been partially translated into English by Henry R. Wagner, "The Voyage of Francisco de Ulloa:, California Historical Society Quarterly, Vol III, 4:362-383. En un segundo artículo en la misma revista en Vol. XIX, 1940, pp. 240-244, Wagner cree prove that Ulloa returned to Acapulco in Santa Agueda, which is not convincing proof.

2. Markey, JJ"Francisco de Ulloa, not Cabrillo, Discovered California", Southern California Rancher, Febrero 1952, p. 2. Markey, JJ "Francisco de Ulloa, not Cabrillo, Calif. Discovered," Southern California ranch, in February 1952, p. 7 7 Markey says that Ulloa went through the channel of Santa Barbara and lifted maps of the islands and adjacent coasts.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Adding my 'two cents" from my notes:
Ulloa sailed in 1539, only a couple of years after the opening of the first mint in the New World (Mexico City). At that time, only small denomination coins (and no gold coins) were minted. The exception: 'One' 8 reales from 1538 is known: http://www.coinresource.com/news/first_colonial _coin.htm
Not till 1690 was the first gold coin issued in Mexico City. The first major mintage of 8-reales occurred in 1556, years after Ulloa sailed.
Ulloa was on a voyage of discovery, not of trade and not to go to Manila (against the currents).The Manila trade didn't start to 1565.
Coins found by Dr. Markey were to be used to shipmate's wages and for acquiring provisions enroute. Again, only my 'two cents'.
Don.....

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

here's more on the ship:

Enjoy
PLL

Paper: San Diego Union-Tribune, The (CA)Title:
09/15/1988
In search of treasure off Oceanside Carlsbad man aims to salvage Spanish ship that many doubt existsDate: September 15, 1988 Treasure. It's the sweet siren that lures a man like Bill Warren to spend 13 years scouring the seas for a long-lost ship believed to be laden with wealth. If Warren's conviction is true -- that a Spanish caravel called the Trinidad sank off the Oceanside coast in the mid-1500s -- then history will need rewriting and the 37-year-old Carlsbad resident's time will have been well-spent. Warren has his believers: 16 investors, a 10-person crew to excavate the wreck and at least a few archaeologists who think the quest is not too far-fetched. He also has his skeptics, among them noted archaeologists, state officials and a heavyweight treasure hunter named Mel Fisher, who has agreed to help Warren find other California wrecks, but not the Trinidad. "I went and looked (for the Trinidad) about 40 years ago, but couldn't find anything," said Fisher, who made history in 1985 with his breathtaking find of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha, a 17th century Spanish galleon sunk by a hurricane in 1622 off the Florida coast. The discovery yielded more than $100 million in gold bars, silver and jewels. Warren's doubters agree there is something off Oceanside shores -- something under about 65 feet of water and 30 feet of sand. Some say there's no question it's a ship. Maritime archaeologist Don Knight of Diamond Bar said that sonarlike profiles of the site have traced irregularities below the ocean floor that could well be iron anchors, old cannons or other ship gear. Warren's search for the Trinidad started in 1975, after he stumbled onto a library book about shipwrecks. Three years ago, he forsook a singing career to devote himself full time to his passion. Warren claims to know precisely where the 35-ton caravel sits: about one mile south of Oceanside's Municipal Pier. And he claims to know what's aboard: about $10 million worth of artifacts, coins and jewels. What he doesn't know is where the money to salvage the ship will come from. Warren's search has cost him two salvage vessels destroyed in storms. He is six months behind in slip fees for The Tango, his newest boat, which is anchored at the old Commercial Pier on Harbor Island. Compounding those woes is a dispute with the state Lands Commission, which, according to the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987, owns all wreckage sites off the California coast. Warren, who in 1976 got a permit from Oceanside to excavate the Trinidad, contends in a lawsuit that he owns 22 wrecks from Point Loma to the top of California. The Lands Commission deemed Warren's plans to excavate environmentally and archaeologically unacceptable. Commission officials are awaiting a new plan from Warren before they let him start his work. One problem, said commission attorney Peter Pelkofer, is Warren's proposal to blow the sand off the vessel. The process could destroy its historical value, Pelkofer said. "We submitted a very good archaeological plan -- item by item," Warren said. "We have marine biologists who can prove it. There's a bit of jealousy here and that's why a lot of state archaeologists don't like treasure hunters. They think we're trying to cheat the public." Generally, the state gets its choice of any artifacts found on an abandoned wreck, 25 percent of the first $25,000 of value and 50 percent of any value beyond that. State laws governing securities require Warren to have a permit to attract investors to his salvage company, Valentino Communications Inc. To skirt the permit process, which requires a thorough check of an applicant's finances, Warren got an exemption that forbids him from advertising for investors and limits stockholders to 35 people who must know him or be sophisticated business people. Archaeologist Knight has been in the ship-salvaging business for years. He said the Trinidad was a Spanish ship skippered by explorer Franciscode Ulloa, one of Aztec conqueror Hernan Cortes' right-hand men. "Most professional archaeologists doubt very seriously that the Trinidad exists off of Oceanside," Knight said. Early historians write that Ulloa and his crew sailed only to Baja California around 1540 before a storm forced them back, Knight said. According to some literature -- but more legend -- the Trinidad sailed beyond Baja and anchored off what is now Solana Beach, Knight said. As that story goes, most of the 24-member crew was stricken with dysentery and died ashore. The Trinidad floated north and sank during a storm off Oceanside. J.J. Markey, an Oceanside optometrist and novelist, lent dubious credibility to the story when three decades ago he discovered a cave between Encinitas and Solana Beach that he claimed held 2,000 coins and the skeletal remains of the Ulloa party. Markey said the University of Madrid confirmed that the bones dated to the era of the Spanish conquistadors. But there are holes in the tale, said Knight, not the least of which is the fact that Spanish archives indicate Ulloa attended a paternity hearing in Spain years after he supposedly perished in the Trinidad disaster. "We're very cautious about this in the archaeological community," Knight said. "There's too much scam that has been worked on the general public over the years pertaining to treasure hunts." Then there's John Ford, a San Diego archaeologist who has done field work in Panama, Central America and Mexico. His master's degree comes from Norway's University of Oslo. A solid body of research suggests Ulloa's entourage did travel up to Southern California, Ford said, making the belief that the ship lies near Oceanside "in the ballpark." "The probability is better than a 50 percent chance that (Warren) is correct," he said. But Kirk Walker, an environmentalist with the state Lands Commission, said people filing for salvage permits typically "neglect little things like facts." "There is a shipwreck (off Oceanside) and we would certainly be supportive of Warren or anyone to help solve the mystery," Walker said. "Unfortunately, what Warren wants to do is ... go blow everything off (the ship) and find a bunch of gold bars on the bottom. If there is a vessel of any historical importance, that will basically destroy it." Should Warren uncover the Trinidad, archaeologists say, the find would reshape history. It would indicate Ulloa was in California shortly before Juan Rodriquez Cabrillo, the Portuguese explorer credited with discovering California in 1543. "It's not entirely impossible," Walker said. "There's always a chance the historians are wrong."

san diego union trib
01/14/1996

The story of the lost treasure turned out to be a fabrication by an overly enthusiastic Oceanside eye doctor.

Ophthalmologist John J. Markey proclaimed in 1952 that he had solved the "mystery" of the lost treasure of Francisco de Ulloa. The Spanish explorer, Markey claimed, had sailed past San Diego in 1540, two years before Cabrillo's voyage of discovery, and lost one of his gold-laden galleons at the mouth of the San Luis Rey River.

In a speech to the historical society, he said he found the remains of Ulloa and 21 of his crew in a cave in the San Luis Rey Valley.

"The public and news media greeted the story with enthusiasm," Crawford said. "Trumpeted by Markey, the story reached a wide audience."

But skeptics, including Museum of Man curator Spencer L. Rogers, poked holes in Markey's theory and demanded further evidence that the doctor did not produce. One researcher found court documents placing Ulloa in Spain in 1542.

Over the years, treasure hunters combed the ocean floor for signs of Ulloa's vessel. Nightclub singer and swimming pool salesman Bill Warren claimed to have found two cannons with a metal detector.

Markey vowed to document his findings, but he died in 1985 with no book and no maps.

 

[ghostdog]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

To add to the fray, in the late 1960"s, a surfer caught his toe on a long gold chain that had a Spanish cross hanging on it encrusted with precious stones, while waiting for the perfect wave near Solana beach. Others on this board may know more details of this old story,that was in the newspapers.