The Merchant Royal was in port in Cadiz when it learned of a Spanish ship that was overburdened with this treasure.

[P4L]

If the royall merchant was found how would the gold and silver be recovered

 

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[Crow]

If the royall merchant was found how would the gold and silver be recovered

It depends on topography of sea floor. We do not know what challenges the wreck site poses? For example sand silt or mud or on rock. How deeply buried the wreck is in the sea floor. How large the debris field is? All of these plus wind tide and currents are all tied into a salvage operation.

The first course of action at wreck site in photo survey the wreck site to determine the extent of debris field. working to grid pattern. Ballast stones anchors and cannon generally cluster and heavy cargo will be vicinity of such objects. The first task is to determine this is correct vessel. by obtaining objects that can de dated.

The site is most likely out of the depth range for physical diving. So recover would be done by remote control rovs. some fitted with scoop or pincers. conveyed to an independent mesh basket connected to the mother ship (Salvage Ship) And a system to blow away sand and silt.

Please note it is painstakingly slow process but not as destructive as smash and grab bucket methods.

Crow

 

[enrada]

The Merchant Royal then sank off the coast in Cornwall, England. Taking the gold and riches to the bottom of the ocean. For centuries its location has remained a mystery, until last year when a fishing boat found the first clue.
The unfound shipwreck is one of the most lucrative shipwreck in history.

Isn't there a moderator on Treasurenet that can ban time wasting videos like this.

 

[P4L]

It depends on topography of sea floor. We do not know what challenges the wreck site poses? For example sand silt or mud or on rock. How deeply buried the wreck is in the sea floor. How large the debris field is? All of these plus wind tide and currents are all tied into a salvage operation.

The first course of action at wreck site in photo survey the wreck site to determine the extent of debris field. working to grid pattern. Ballast stones anchors and cannon generally cluster and heavy cargo will be vicinity of such objects. The first task is to determine this is correct vessel. by obtaining objects that can de dated.

The site is most likely out of the depth range for physical diving. So recover would be done by remote control rovs. some fitted with scoop or pincers. conveyed to an independent mesh basket connected to the mother ship (Salvage Ship) And a system to blow away sand and silt.

Please note it is painstakingly slow process but not as destructive as smash and grab bucket methods.

Crow

Yes rovs would be the safe thing but with the right equipment and properly trained people a physical dive would be possible correct

 

[Crow]

Yes rovs would be the safe thing but with the right equipment and properly trained people a physical dive would be possible correct

Well that would all depend on actual depth of shipwreck.

Crow

 

[P4L]

Well that would all depend on actual depth of shipwreck.

Crow

It's said to be 300 ft but how would they know if they don't know where the ship is

 

[Crow]

It's said to be 300 ft but how would they know if they don't know where the ship is

Personally I suspect its just media hype. there are 37000 shipwrecks around the British isles. The English channel alone has 1100 WW1 shipwrecks. And there are many remains of 16th, 17th , 18th and 19th century shipwrecks that look the same. It is only by detailed study and examination they could possible determine an age of a wreck. Even so it is notoriously hard to prove the name of vessel in question on a shipwreck site.

So for me I would be a little weary of such claims until it has really been found with evidence to prove such claims.

Crow

 

[unamedforsafety]

I do not believe the gold was ever on the merchant royal I have information upon which I have built a theory I plan to make public very soon

 

[P4L]

I do not believe the gold was ever on the merchant royal I have information upon which I have built a theory I plan to make public very soon

do you mind sharing your theory with us now

 

[unamedforsafety]

do you mind sharing your theory with us now

The merchant royal was leaking badly already upon arrival in Cádiz.. Limbrey as a seasoned sailor would have known they were likely to face swell in the English Channel, he was also known to be a greedy cunning entrepreneurial so and so who was always looking to make a solid payday.. the gold was supposedly placed on the merchant royal.. but why would he place that much gold in the trust of a ship he would have known likely would struggle to make the long haul home.. unless that’s what he wanted everyone to think he’d done.. the Dover and the Royal took different routes on the way up the coast to the bottleneck at Cornwall.. the Dover specifically noted to have been in calmer waters.. they didn’t meet again until the royal got into difficulty off lands end.. where she took limbrey and the crew off supposedly in a rescue.. I think that was the plan.. I think the gold was always on the Dover.. I think limbrey found himself with the perfect opportunity to deceive everyone and took it. I think he put the gold on the sister to the royal sent her home through calmer waters knowing the damaged royal being captained by him to complete his convincing ruse would likely be taken to the deep somewhere on the way, with everyone but him and the crew certain she had the gold on board.. while he made away aboard the Dover

 

[BennyV]

The merchant royal was leaking badly already upon arrival in Cádiz.. Limbrey as a seasoned sailor would have known they were likely to face swell in the English Channel, he was also known to be a greedy cunning entrepreneurial so and so who was always looking to make a solid payday.. the gold was supposedly placed on the merchant royal.. but why would he place that much gold in the trust of a ship he would have known likely would struggle to make the long haul home.. unless that’s what he wanted everyone to think he’d done.. the Dover and the Royal took different routes on the way up the coast to the bottleneck at Cornwall.. the Dover specifically noted to have been in calmer waters.. they didn’t meet again until the royal got into difficulty off lands end.. where she took limbrey and the crew off supposedly in a rescue.. I think that was the plan.. I think the gold was always on the Dover.. I think limbrey found himself with the perfect opportunity to deceive everyone and took it. I think he put the gold on the sister to the royal sent her home through calmer waters knowing the damaged royal being captained by him to complete his convincing ruse would likely be taken to the deep somewhere on the way, with everyone but him and the crew certain she had the gold on board.. while he made away aboard the Dover

So he said they lost it when it was really transferred to the Dover and he kept it?

 

[P4L]

The merchant royal was leaking badly already upon arrival in Cádiz.. Limbrey as a seasoned sailor would have known they were likely to face swell in the English Channel, he was also known to be a greedy cunning entrepreneurial so and so who was always looking to make a solid payday.. the gold was supposedly placed on the merchant royal.. but why would he place that much gold in the trust of a ship he would have known likely would struggle to make the long haul home.. unless that’s what he wanted everyone to think he’d done.. the Dover and the Royal took different routes on the way up the coast to the bottleneck at Cornwall.. the Dover specifically noted to have been in calmer waters.. they didn’t meet again until the royal got into difficulty off lands end.. where she took limbrey and the crew off supposedly in a rescue.. I think that was the plan.. I think the gold was always on the Dover.. I think limbrey found himself with the perfect opportunity to deceive everyone and took it. I think he put the gold on the sister to the royal sent her home through calmer waters knowing the damaged royal being captained by him to complete his convincing ruse would likely be taken to the deep somewhere on the way, with everyone but him and the crew certain she had the gold on board.. while he made away aboard the Dover

well that makes sense i dont see any logical reason that they would keep the gold on that ship with them knowing it was leaking that bad

 

[Crow]

well that makes sense i dont see any logical reason that they would keep the gold on that ship with them knowing it was leaking that bad

Hello p4l

I like the hypothesis. It was good question to ask? I have no doubt fraud of that type went on as there has been cases over the centuries of similar things happening. However it is just interesting speculation.

However I have two issues that suggest that was not the case that John Lymbery committed any such fraud. Other than him being a shipwreck survivor.

One : see the excellent post by Smith and Brown on the following court case after the loss of the Merchant Royal

Langham and Al. And Lymbery and Al.

"The Answer of Captain John Lymbery, Arnold Brames, and John Cradocke, to the Petition of Sir John Cordell Knight Alderman of London, John Langham Alderman, and others.

In short there was court case in which Lymbery captain of the merchant Royal states 10000 pounds claimed would wipe him out lucky to have one grout ( 4 shillings ) No quite the man that just had plundered a fabulous treasure that was supposedly worth one third of the English exchequer?

Two He died 20 years later in 1861 at lime house he was living at Middlesex ( note Note London ) and ( Note once again 16th century spelling of the time was also known as Lumhouse ) I have found Captain John Lymbery's will. (Note: Some times spelt as Limbery. same pronunciation ) When he died he left money and property to his four sons John, William, Walter, Samuel and four daughters Rebecca, Jane, Ann, Elisabeth and his wife. 50 Pounds to his sons each to 20 pounds his daughters. So 280 pounds not even remotely close to even to said value of merchant Royal and lease agreement.

Here is the Will below. Source: England and Wales, Prerogative court of Canterbury Wills, 1384 -1858

Lumehouse also known as lime house. Here is a map from the 17th century below. There was originally a line kiln on the banks of river Thames. London.

One of his sons died in 1675 also name John was listed as a mariner.

on the 1746 mention is more clarity of the place where Captain John Limbery lived at Lime house London.

Today the location has changed beyond recognition as to what was there in the 17th century.

So in essence the claim that Captain John Limbery or its spelling variation Lymbery robbed a fortune through sinking the merchant royal and placing the treasure on the Dover merchant is just groundless speculation. The court case and Will, show no signs of huge financial benefit from the loss of Merchant Royal.

Crow

 

[Magoopeter]

No cant share just yet, still need to do more reasearch, Crow is right he was an honest man even went on to have a postion representing the shipping companies in london, one of which he was owner.
I managed to get the origanal story of the American mention of the merchant Royall your are 100% right in what you said.

 

[unamedforsafety]

Hello p4l

I like the hypothesis. It was good question to ask? I have no doubt fraud of that type went on as there has been cases over the centuries of similar things happening. However it is just interesting speculation.

However I have two issues that suggest that was not the case that John Lymbery committed any such fraud. Other than him being a shipwreck survivor.

One : see the excellent post by Smith and Brown on the following court case after the loss of the Merchant Royal

Langham and Al. And Lymbery and Al.

"The Answer of Captain John Lymbery, Arnold Brames, and John Cradocke, to the Petition of Sir John Cordell Knight Alderman of London, John Langham Alderman, and others.

In short there was court case in which Lymbery captain of the merchant Royal states 10000 pounds claimed would wipe him out lucky to have one grout ( 4 shillings ) No quite the man that just had plundered a fabulous treasure that was supposedly worth one third of the English exchequer?

Two He died 20 years later in 1861 at lime house he was living at Middlesex ( note Note London ) and ( Note once again 16th century spelling of the time was also known as Lumhouse ) I have found Captain John Lymbery's will. (Note: Some times spelt as Limbery. same pronunciation ) When he died he left money and property to his four sons John, William, Walter, Samuel and four daughters Rebecca, Jane, Ann, Elisabeth and his wife. 50 Pounds to his sons each to 20 pounds his daughters. So 280 pounds not even remotely close to even to said value of merchant Royal and lease agreement.

Here is the Will below. Source: England and Wales, Prerogative court of Canterbury Wills, 1384 -1858

View attachment 2147031​

Lumehouse also known as lime house. Here is a map from the 17th century below. There was originally a line kiln on the banks of river Thames. London.

View attachment 2147032 One of his sons died in 1675 also name John was listed as a mariner.

on the 1746 mention is more clarity of the place where Captain John Limbery lived at Lime house London.
View attachment 2147035
Today the location has changed beyond recognition as to what was there in the 17th century.

So in essence the claim that Captain John Limbery or its spelling variation Lymbery robbed a fortune through sinking the merchant royal and placing the treasure on the Dover merchant is just groundless speculation. The court case and Will, show no signs of huge financial benefit from the loss of Merchant Royal.

Crow

I appreciate and thank you for your fascinating and incredibly detailed counter debate, however I am hard to my guns on this, I appreciate (on paper) he may have lived and died a modest existence after the fact but also believe that may be a front to turn eyes from the fact he and his crew had just pulled the wool over just about everyone and commited the one of the greatest acts of deception in history!, I must also contest the position of him being this honest as the day is long man, he was no pirate I concede, but he was a still privateer and as such lived purely for the interest of him and his crew, I have read many stories of him being a cunning old sea dog who many times managed to slip some to himself under the table on a shipping deal and as return for their part in his cunning deals made sure his crew shared in the wealth, which also leads me to the point of my theory I must clarify on.. I do not believe and never meant to imply he kept everything himself, I believe it was shared among the crew as both payment for their equal cunning and deception, that’s a lot of big bites out of the total value, and also remember, men died on the MR in the Sinking, possibly having volunteered their lives to complete the ruse.. and as a man who as I say always looked after his crew.. may well have made some large payouts to families left behind!. And above all if you had just essentially pulled off one of the biggest acts of cunning fraud and deception, why would you ever let any of that appear on the paper proof that the world claims to show him as w modest and honest man, everyone who knew the truth would have been paid well to keep it quiet too, so yes actually he may well have died merely a modestly wealthy man having made sure everyone had their payment for silence, but that is the only part I believe to be true from the paper facts.. I believe the gold is not on the bottom of the English Channel, I believe it was placed in the pocket of everyone involved and what was left stashed in physical presence somewhere where it could be kept quiet, so without being all Indiana jones fantasist about it, if you want the gold.. start looking path on land and not under the waves.

 

[P4L]

so that's why there was no signs of huge financial benefit

 

[Magoopeter]

Can’t buy into that, I don’t think he was even on the ship, if I am honest, and the ship sailed alone, possibly a Dutch ship rescued the crew.

 

[P4L]

Can’t buy into that, I don’t think he was even on the ship, if I am honest, and the ship sailed alone, possibly a Dutch ship rescued the crew.

and i can't buy into anything you say

 

[Magoopeter]

What do you base your theory on this,

 

[P4L]

What do you base your theory on this,

all i know is the captain and crew was on the merchant royal when it sank then was rescued by the sister ship the dover merchant and the gold went down with the merchant royal