The Book Club

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Hal Croves

Hal Croves

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Sep 25, 2010
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Please use this thread to ask or answer questions related to the many books that have been written on the Lost Dutchman's Mine. Honestly I am hoping that contributors will focus on specific titles and the content as opposed to their own personal discoveries. I am not sure if that includes the Stone Map Cipher or not...

I will start with a question:

Does anyone here know if the diary of Charles T. Schackman (d. 1904) was ever published?

Bisbee Daily Review

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In another thread I wrote about the legend of the Dutchman and how it appears to have grown over time. Here is an early version of the legend that seems to have been ignored. The Dutchman is played by Henry Youngblood of Missouri...

Enjoy and Merry Xmass!

BISBEEDAILY1906
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That legend hasn't been ignored Hal, it's just that there are more than a few Lost Dutchman Mines in legend, and the Henry Youngblood legend has nothing to do with the Superstition Mountains. It's a completely different "lost gold" legend.
 

"It's a completely different "lost gold" legend."

Yes, the Youngblood mine was not in the Superstitions, however at the time the article was written (1906), in local culture the "Lost Dutchman's Mine" was believed to be in the Bradshaw Mountains. The legend attached to the Superstitions, the one that you are writing about, was, just a few years after his death (1896) described as Dutch Jacob's Mine (#2). My point being that over time authors writing about this legend have created a Frankenstein.

The legend is an amalgamation.

cubfan64... Just for laughs... around Phoenix, how many Lost Dutchman Mine legends are there?

AWC1894
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I want to better explain. This article may be about the same two men, or not. There is honestly no way to tell, but I wonder if this is the original version of "Dutchman" finding his partner mutilated. Stories grow and twist and the date of 1878 is about right.

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Hal,

Bob Upton was a well known prospector and mining man in early Arizona. He lived at Tombstone during the silver boom and was known throughout the territory to grub stake prospectors on trips into the mountains looking for ledges and lode deposits. He later relocated to Phoenix where he died. One of the articles you posted on Upton was from the Phoenix Gazette June 1896 and the other article you posted on Upton is taken from the Tombstone Daily Prospector July 9, 1890 Page 1 Column 3.

Upton may well have known Waltz as he was a frequent visitor to Phoenix and Prescott and knew most of the old timers from early Arizona. It's not impossible that he may have even grubstaked Waltz at one time or another.
 

Azhiker
It is amazing how many people are connected to the Dutchman or Dutch Jacob. Just yesterday I read that Upton went to California and that he had great luck prospecting and that a small town grew from his discovery. The Dutchman asked to see Upton before he passed. I had not known that before reading the article. So, Upton is someone worth researching... I believe. Now I need to find (substantiate) Upton's connection to the Dutchman.
Thank you for the information!
 

I am wondering who Joseph H. Gilmore was as reported in this article? Also is the French Mine another mine altogether or is this article describing the Dutch Jacob - Lost Dutchman's Mine?

AZRSEP1892
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I have been reading through old posts in the Lost Dutchman Mine forum and can not find any conversation regarding the name of this legend and how it has evolved over time. Am I simply overlooking it? Anyone remember that conversation?
 

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Julia Thomas married Albert Schaffer on the 26th of July, 1893. On that same day, at 1:45pm, Julia transferred ownership of her Phoenix city lot to Albert for the amount of $800.00, not $80.00 as reported. This is evidence that Julia did not quite invest "everything" to finance the expedition of August 11th, 1892 and that her hardship upon returning to Phoenix was something less than has been described.

On August 14th, 1893 Albert purchased a half interest in a city lot owned by Joseph Schaffer, which he purchased from George & Mary Smith for $300.00 on 3/3/1893. The Schaffer clan is still another mystery. Albert claims to have arrived in the United States in 1890, however I believe the actual date was August 31st, 1889. There are also records which suggests an earlier arrival and a connection to Iowa. Six months later, on February 21st, 1894, Albert, Julia, Englbert Schaffer, and one other person filed a claim on a mine "in the south side of Salt River Mountains about tow miles South of the main Range…" "The ledge is gold bearing, rocks of reddish collar in Salt River Mountain Mining District. Maricopa Co." ", and shall be known as the Montezuma mining claim."

Years later, Albert worked the First Chance No.1 & First Chance No.2 mining claim in the Vulture mining district. (John B. Israel deceased one of the locators.) I am still trying to understand the name change to Israel and the Schaffer's religious beliefs if anyone has insight.

I can't help wonder how Julia and the others came to find the Montezuma claim. After the failed expedition in 1892, Julia had the confidence to try again, this time without the Petrasch brothers.

Its just a very strange coincidence.
 

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Hal Croves said:
Julia Thomas married Albert Schaffer on the 26th of July, 1893. On that same day, at 1:45pm, Julia transferred ownership of her Phoenix city lot to Albert for the amount of $800.00, not $80.00 as reported. This is evidence that Julia did not quite invest "everything" to finance the expedition of August 11th, 1892 and that her hardship upon returning to Phoenix was something less than has been described.

On August 14th, 1893 Albert purchased a half interest in a city lot owned by Joseph Schaffer, which he purchased from George & Mary Smith for $300.00 on 3/3/1893. The Schaffer clan is still another mystery. Albert claims to have arrived in the United States in 1890, however I believe the actual date was August 31st, 1889. There are also records which suggests an earlier arrival and a connection to Iowa. Six months later, on February 21st, 1894, Albert, Julia, Englbert Schaffer, and one other person filed a claim on a mine "in the south side of Salt River Mountains about tow miles South of the main Range…" "The ledge is gold bearing, rocks of reddish collar in Salt River Mountain Mining District. Maricopa Co." ", and shall be known as the Montezuma mining claim."

Years later, Albert worked the First Chance No.1 & First Chance No.2 mining claim in the Vulture mining district. (John B. Israel deceased one of the locators.) I am still trying to understand the name change to Israel and the Schaffer's religious beliefs if anyone has insight.

I can't help wonder how Julia and the others came to find the Montezuma claim. After the failed expedition in 1892, Julia had the confidence to try again, this time without the Petrasch brothers.

It just a very strange coincidence.
Click to expand...

Hal,

I believe all the members of Julia's faith took the last name of "Israel".

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper,
I am very interested in this part of Julia's life and would appreciate any help in understanding what it was they were practicing. Have you every been to either of Schaffer's mining claims?
Anyone?
 

Hal,

Never been to any of their claims. I believe a number of Dutch Hunters have. People like Greg Davis, Wayne Tuttle and Kraig Roberts. That's just an educated guess. Along those lines, I would guess that Azhiker and Spirit could be added to the mix.

I did quite a bit of research into the Schaffer's cult some time ago. Not sure where I pigeon -holed the results, but Dr. Glover gives you a great place to start on pages 174-75.

Good luck,

Joe
 

Hal Croves said:
cactusjumper,
I am very interested in this part of Julia's life and would appreciate any help in understanding what it was they were practicing. Have you every been to either of Schaffer's mining claims?
Anyone?
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Hal

I've never been to there claims, But they were most likely into masonry some form of messianic jews worshipping there one true god, witch in the masons case was Lucifer. Most likely would get you strung up in those times, thats why they were so secret about it.

Wrmickel1 But most likely you'll say I'm wroung
 

wrmickel,
At the time, Phoenix had many fraternal orders and it was common to publicly advertise scheduled lodge meetings. Additionally, many early businessmen and territorial governmental officials were members, so I doubt that they (Julia & Albert) ran the risk of a lynching for being involved in Masonry. Dr Glover writes that they were American Israelites, so I can say that you may be right, in part, about the Jewish connection. Kollenborn writes about strange trouble related to this group. Fascinating topic.
 

cactusjumper,
All I can think to write is wow!

I have managed to follow Emil's trail to his home and business in California, which took some scratching, but Waynes research into Schaffer's life is remarkable.
Unfortunately, Dr. Glover's book is not an easy find.

One thing about Emil that I am at a loss to explain is where he went in 1917. I have him up to 1916, and again from 1918 on, but in 1917, he and his wife Leona are gone. Could it have been war related?
 

cactusjumper said:
Hal,

A good deal of information you are looking for can be found here:

Lost Dutchman Gold Mine - Arizona Superstition Mountain Wilderness - Gold Mining ? View topic - Julia Thomas/Schaffer/Israel

These are posts by Wayne Tuttle.

WRM is about a mile off base.

Good luck,

Joe
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Joe

Why would WRM be off base your thread/link says they had ties to all the same stuff, in his last post. And I'd walk amile for a donkey, Ohh miss print I mean Camel

Wrmickel1

ps Them wayne guy's are really smart
 

Hal Croves said:
cactusjumper,
All I can think to write is wow!

I have managed to follow Emil's trail to his home and business in California, which took some scratching, but Waynes research into Schaffer's life is remarkable.
Unfortunately, Dr. Glover's book is not an easy find.

One thing about Emil that I am at a loss to explain is where he went in 1917. I have him up to 1916, and again from 1918 on, but in 1917, he and his wife Leona are gone. Could it have been war related?
Click to expand...

Don't believe I ever went that far into their history. Dr. Glover's book is getting pricey, but there are copies available. His second edition replaced the sold out first edition, but you would do well to wait for his new books. He, like Helen Corbin used a source who tended to make up his own history.

Amazon.com: The Golden Dream (The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 1) (9780966209181): Thomas E. Glover: Books

Good luck,

Joe
 

cactusjumper,

I have it as Emil W. Thomas (b. June 1856) arriving in the United States (1871/2), married Julia/e ______ Dec 28, 1883. Arrival in Phoenix 1885, Declaration Intention 1886, operating bakery until 1890, divorced 1891, married ~ Leona, Lena, Leontina (b. 1877 Austria) 1894, Washington, Lewis, census 1900,.... San Diego business directory 1912 - 1916. 1918 - 1922.

Emil moved to San Diego with his wife Leona sometime around 1912. He and his partner Carl A. Hallstrom (married to Sophie H.) owned Thomas & Hallstrom which appears to have been a bakery or even a chain of bakeries. Their partnership continued until 1916, and in 1917 Emil, Leona, and Thomas & Hallstrom are missing from the San Diego directory. In 1918 Emil and Leona returned to San Diego and opened their own bakery (Ideal Bakery) at 1166 5th Ave. Leona worked as a dressmaker. Ideal Bakery continued at least until 1923. Its not clear. Working for Emil were George Stock (baker), Ivor Stock (helper), and Clara Sargent (clerk).

Paints a bigger picture.
 

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