Charles Kenworthy vs. the CIA and Howard Hughes

[mariner]

Cavendish got 104 pounds of gold off the Santa Ana, or 22,000 pesos including a large number of Spanish "pistoles" coins. The total value of the shipment was estimated at 2.5 milllion pesos with most of that being in silks and porcelin. This amount of gold seems ununual, but shows early on that they were interested in sending silver and returning gold.

And to make life more interesting, Cavendish's second ship, Content, went missing immediately after looting the Santa Ana. It was reported to have gone north, in search of the North West Passage, and was never seen again, so it can't be ignored when considering the identity of early West Coast wrecks.

Mariner

 

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[Peerless67]

It couldn't have been lost in 1576. It is recorded that Captain Carmeno commanded the San Felipe on its' trip from Acapulco to Manila in 1597, then for some unknown reason he switched ships to the San Augustin which sailed to California and sank North of San Francisco in 1598.

Best-Mike

Does it not seem strange that he commanded the San Pedro in March 1594 and on arrival in Manila switches to the San Augustin for the return journey.
And in 1576 does the same thing except this time swaps the San Felipe for the San Augustin ?

 

[gollum]

Not really strange.

When a ship finished its' voyage from one side of the ocean to the other, it would usually be in need of major overhaul due to worms and rough seas. If the Captain wanted to get back to work, he would naturally move to a ship that was ready to go, rather than wait for the old one to be repaired, which may delay his work for a year or more.

Mike

 

[Peerless67]

I can not find a "historical" mention of Don Mercurio de salcedo

There was also a San Pedro in the 1588 fleet (spanish armada)

And then there is this:

In 1596 the merchant ship San Pedro, transporting a cargo of gold, silver and jewelry to Spain, sank on Bermuda's inner reef. Among the treasures recovered was a gold pectoral cross with seven emeralds said to be one of the most valuable pieces of jewelry recovered from any Spanish shipwreck. The cross was on display in the Bermuda Maritime Museum, however in 1975 when it was removed from its case during a royal visit it was discovered the cross has been stolen and replaced with a plastic replica!


Gary

 

[Peerless67]

Scratch that the ship was the San Antonio

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

It was not unusual to change ships in this manner. It was usual. All the galleons used in the line were owned by the crown.

I used the Cavendish numbers to show that 30 million dollars is a little high of a cargo estimate. I think it can be looked at as one of the real high value ships to have ever sailed.

If Glomar had looted the wreck they would have got maybe 100 pounds of gold or less, maybe not much at all. At 1976 prices, they would have got around 1600 ounces of gold at 130.00 an ounce. That's 208,000.00 : not bad for a cruise, but hardly a fortune to do much with, and it immediately gets discounted some because it's money under the radar.

I see it like this: Wrong date of sinking. It must be wrong, just based on the times the ships sailed.

The San Pedro seems to be going back to Manila in 1598, not to Acapulco.

Copper sheeting is unusual. The two early Manila galleon wrecks I know of had lead sheeting.

The Capitana: this is not a ship's name, but the designation of one of the two ships that would sail in the lead position and usually be armed.

One of the ships in 1600 seems to have sunk somewhere.



The story starts out like someone in the Navy had a beef against this guy for some reason. They scooped up the ship and found some valuable metal on it, but were mostly disappointed. Then, there were just a bunch of broken plates and wood. It was released somewhere off San Diego. Then, when the guy goes to the Admiral's office or his house to complain, some of the plates they saved were on display. But the guy just has to look at them as the Admiral tells him they never did any recovery operation like that. I remember asking the guy who told me that story back in the 80's something about why they didn't save the plates for a museum. Obviously, they didn't want to get sued.

 

[mariner]

Scratch that the ship was the San Antonio

Because ?

Mariner

 

[Peerless67]

Scratch that the ship was the San Antonio

Because ?

Mariner

Because the article I read was an old online article, so I visited the Bermuda Maritime Museum page to take a look at the cross and it indicates that Teddy Tucker salvaged the San Antonio in 1955, not the San Pedro. Although I am working on the assumption that the museum would be aware of the origins of any artifacts they display.

http://www.bermuda-attractions.com/bermuda_000028.htm

The site also talks about "wrecks" which is plural so therefor the San Pedro may well have been one of those wrecks, however the original article I pasted above about the cross indicates it was recovered from the San Pedro which seems to not be the case.
The only shipwreck litrature I have is about the Lutine so I have no access to anything on the San Pedro except that which I can access on the web or in the library. I guess I am on a learning curve, but enjoying it just the same.


Also this article causes more confussion because how could the San Pedro be wrecked in 1595 when it was in Manila ?



Gary

 

[Peerless67]

Quote cuzcosquirrel

Closest losses are San Agustin in 1895 at Drake's Bay and San Felipe II in 1596.

typo ? San Augustin November 1595

The San Pedro seems to be going back to Manila in 1598, not to Acapulco.

This seems a little confusing

In March of 1595 the San Pedro leaves for Manila and is there in July 1595

The San Pedro seems not to be fit for the return journey and the captain leases the Augustin ( average repair time ? )

My logic here tells me that if you are correct and the ships left manila to catch the wind in June and July that the San Pedro would be leaving the following June or July of 1596 at the earliest ?
So using that logic if I add in the journey time from Manila to the west coast of the US (6 months ?) and then on to Acapulco ? 1597 at the earliest ? and then if the San pedro after making that Journey was in no need of repairs ( which would seem unlikely ? ) is then returning to Manila for arrival in 1598 ?


Time for the San Pedro (which is already in Manila in July 1595) to be repaired and to make an outbound journey to XXXXXXXX ? and then to be headed back to Manila in 1598 ?



Gary

 

[Peerless67]

This should be interesting to some of you 1715 divers. When I was prospecting for gold in Arizona back in the late 1990's, there was a mining equipment store in Apache Junction... Pro Mack South. I frequented this place when I was in the area. There were Spanish coins in a display case that the owner told me belonged to Chuck Kenworthy. The owner and Kenworthy were good friends. When I asked about the coins, I was told that Chuck had found them in Florida. You guessed it, they were coins from the 1715 fleet.

Kenworthy and Fisher were there at the same time


http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers...dq=charles kenworthy treasure&pg=1318,5165762

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers...dq=charles kenworthy treasure&pg=4094,1609388

 

[mariner]

Peerless,

There were lots of ships called after saints like Anthony. The wreck you describe as supposedly being found near Bermuda in 1621 must have been a different ship to the Manila Galleon San Antonio that was lost in 1604 en-route from Manila to Acapulco. How do you suppose a Manila Galleon got from the Pacific into the Caribbean?

A few years ago, I came across some information about the finding of some dated bronze cannons that led me to believe that the San Antonio had wrecked on the coast of British Columbia. Somebody showed me a rubbing of a date (1596) and the Spanish crest, and gave me the names of the guys who had supposedly the cannons, but I could never establish the facts well enough to make it worth further investigation. It's a pretty remote and inhospitable part of the world. When I spoke to them, the two guys absolutely denied that they had found the guns, of course. I think there is a very active black-market for genuine early bronze cannons.

Mariner

 

[Peerless67]

The Glomar anchored off Catalina

 

[Peerless67]

 

[Peerless67]

Marina, I was simply answering the question you posted.

I was trying to figure how the San Pedro that was in Manila in 1595 could have been wrecked in Bermuda the same year. I posted the link to the article I had read, it may not be correct, but I never wrote it.

Right now I am trying to find out what became of the San Pedro between 1595 and 1598


Gary

 

[Peerless67]

Quote Mike

I know there have been several Manila Galleons wrecked and never recovered off of Santa Catalina Island:

1. Santa Marta............................................ .1582

2. Capitana......................................... .........1600

3. Nuestra Senora de Ayuda..........................1641

4. San Sebastian........................................ ..1754

Quote Cuzcossquirrel

The Capitana: this is not a ship's name, but the designation of one of the two ships that would sail in the lead position and usually be armed.

One of the ships in 1600 seems to have sunk somewhere.

Miguel Lopez de Legaspi's flagship was the San Pedro


Quote from http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Philippine-Islands-1493-1803-Volume-II1.html


The second ship of the fleet, "San Pablo." The "San Pedro"
or flagship was spoken of as the _capitana_.


Could this be the "Capitana" (San Pedro) wrecked in 1600, thats only 2 years shy of the 1598 claim ?



Gary

 

[aquanut]

I seem to have too much time to waste today. I fear I've posted more today than ever, so here goes another. I seriously doubt any record of a Spanish ship sinking or gone missing was ever recorded in the wrong year. There was a Capitana for every fleet, even if it consisted of only two ships, so don't get excited about that. Sometimes there was more than one ship sailing in the same year with the same name as another. Don't be surprised. Sometimes a ship was identified by it's nickname, go figure. You are trying to put fact on fantasy after 400 years of smoke. This doesn't play. See what it says in the archives, find it and dive it. Discussion is a wonderful thing, but I think it's time now for action.
Go for it!

On another note...Don't put anything past the CIA. The Glomar Explorer was built by the CIA with the help of Howard Hughes for one purpose only. To raise the Russian Fleet ballistic Missile submarine sunk in the Pacific months earlier. This was a sub that the U.S. knew the exact location of its sinking even when the Russians weren't sure it was even missing. Strange, huh?
Stranger still... I found myself in a fleet ballistic missile sub that was the target of Russian revenge. In 1968 as we left Rota Spain, we were picked up by a Russian fast attack submarine. They were dogging us in the area of the Azores for a couple days and we called in support. The boat that was diverted to help us was the Scorpion.

Aquanut

 

[gollum]

I seem to have too much time to waste today. I fear I've posted more today than ever, so here goes another. I seriously doubt any record of a Spanish ship sinking or gone missing was ever recorded in the wrong year. There was a Capitana for every fleet, even if it consisted of only two ships, so don't get excited about that. Sometimes there was more than one ship sailing in the same year with the same name as another. Don't be surprised. Sometimes a ship was identified by it's nickname, go figure. You are trying to put fact on fantasy after 400 years of smoke. This doesn't play. See what it says in the archives, find it and dive it. Discussion is a wonderful thing, but I think it's time now for action.
Go for it!

On another note...Don't put anything past the CIA. The Glomar Explorer was built by the CIA with the help of Howard Hughes for one purpose only. To raise the Russian Fleet ballistic Missile submarine sunk in the Pacific months earlier. This was a sub that the U.S. knew the exact location of its sinking even when the Russians weren't sure it was even missing. Strange, huh?
Stranger still... I found myself in a fleet ballistic missile sub that was the target of Russian revenge. In 1968 as we left Rota Spain, we were picked up by a Russian fast attack submarine. They were dogging us in the area of the Azores for a couple days and we called in support. The boat that was diverted to help us was the Scorpion.

Aquanut

That's an amazing story. Lots of stuff always happening. So, that might have been you laying on the bottom at about 10,000ft!

In 1983, we were in Pusan when the Soviets shot down KAL-007. Right after that, a US Frigate was shadowing a Soviet Kirov Class Destroyer. The two ships kept bumping each other, then the Soviet Captain shot a flare into the bridge of the Frigate.

Emergency recalls for every command in every service (Army, Navy, AF, Marines). That day was pretty close to war.

 

[Peerless67]

Hi Aquanut,
Even if I had a cast iron location for the wreck, I would have no plan to make any recovery (my health would not allow me to dive). My interest is only historical/self education/ research, and maybe I can help Mike find out for certain that the said galleon was lost off of Catalina and maybe even help with funding any attempts to locate the wreck.

Here is my up to now ammature take on the story.

The San Pedro according to those who have seen the records of the Indies did arrive at Manila in 1595.
The captain for some reason did not use the ship for the return journey, the San Augustin was used instead and that is a well documented loss.

The problem with the claim (to my way of thinking) is that the claim was that the ship was lost in 1598 and in 1601-1603 a salvage attempts were made (on the san pedro).
There was a documented salvage attempt at that time, but it was not on the San Pedro but was on the San Augustine, and those records do not seem to indicate that the captain also had orders to try salvage the San Pedro which was only a short distance away from where the Augustin was lost.

I am probably using the wrong logic, but if I were a wreck hunter I would want to be certain that at least a ship, in this case the San Pedro was lost in the said area before I went to the expense of an attempted location/salvage etc. I only live a couple of hours from the archives but my spanish is non existant and I do not believe I would be very successful at locating the correct records.
All that said I am 100% an ammature when it comes to wrecks, but I do enjoy history and research, the nature of a treasure hunter.

Quote Marina

A few years ago, I came across some information about the finding of some dated bronze cannons that led me to believe that the San Antonio had wrecked on the coast of British Columbia. Somebody showed me a rubbing of a date (1596) and the Spanish crest, and gave me the names of the guys who had supposedly the cannons, but I could never establish the facts well enough to make it worth further investigation.

From that quote I take it that the best proceedure is to know for certain that a wreck exists before throwing small fortunes into further research or location/recovery attempts.

There are people here with a vast knowledge and I believe if the San Pedro (no matter what it was known as) went down off Catalina then there are probably people here who can shed more light.


Gary

 

[Peerless67]

Can anyone translate this ?

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

There are no records for 1596 on Cruikshank's list, and for 1597 all it says is that a couple of ships were sent. He told me he had to have citable documentation proof to add a ship to it, and that the San Pedro being on one side of the ocean in one year and on the other side in the next was not enough.

The San Pedro seems to have sailed from Acapulco in 1598 and arrived back in Manila in summer, 1598.