WWII Sword and Rifle

[callicles]

Received these items years ago as a kid from a WWII veteran. I can't remember the story, but I think he might have said that he got these while he was a part of the US occupation of Japan. Not sure.

The sword still contains cosmoline. I'm gonna try to post pictures. Any information would be appreciated. And, yes, I know there is probably an inscription that reads: "Man with hole in pocket feels cocky." Other than that, any ideas?

 

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[nhbenz]

The rifle is a type 99 Arisaka

 

[nhbenz]

Unfortunately the chrysanthemum mark which would usually be above the model number seems to have been removed, as was done commonly to the ones remaining in Japan after the war.
The arsenal mark is from Toyo Kogyo (1939-1945), as shown here: http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html

 

[Leatherneck2111]

Sword is a factory made NCO sword, not handmade like many of the officer models. Still of high quality and they do have some collector interest. Google "Japanese NCO sword" lots of info available.

Rifle is a common type 99...in the US they bring between $150 to $250 depending on condition.

 

[AU Seeker]

As mentioned the rifle is a Arisaka type 99 made in the Toyo Kogyo arsenal.

The rifle is a early type 99 series 30 (37 series total for the early versions of the type 99) it was made most likely in 1939 or early 1940 based on the low serial number of 1941 out of 99,999 (this is not the year the rifle was made), the Arisaka type 99 production started in August 1939, the later versions of the Arisaka type 99 after series 37 were made at the Nagoya arsenal with lesser quality mounting materials and parts due to material shortages and to keep up with and or ramp up production, towards the end of the war all non-essential parts were omitted entirely even to the point of omitting model numbers and serial numbers.

Look into the barrel and see if it has rifling grooves, if it doesn't it was later made into a "trainer" and used to train new soldiers using blanks.

Your rifle will be worth more if it's a matching numbers rifle, i.e. if all the numbers on other parts of the rifle match the serial number, also don't do anything other than using oil to clean the rifle and don't try to "polish" it or you will lessen the value of the weapon, you want it to be clean but with all the original patina if you intend to sell it.

Also as mention the "chrysanthemum/ Emperor's seal" was ground off, some people say it was done by the Japanese to save face, but the common reason given was occupying troops removed the Emperor's seal by orders after the arsenals were emptied and many of these weapons were given to soldiers for souvenirs, if you find one of these rifle that still has the Emperor's seal it was most likely captured and brought or sent home before the occupation of Japan.

These rifles that still have the Emperor's seal usually sell for twice the price of the ones that the seal was removed.

The sword as mentioned is a NCO sword, it's a wooden handle version 1 from the mid-war period it should also have arsenal marks on it as well, all you show is the serial number in your photo.

 

[callicles]

Thanks to everyone who has replied! AU Seeker, thanks. I peered down the barrel and it seems that there is no rifling, but I'm not 100% sure. I checked the barrel of my hunting guns (270 and300) and could make out rifling. But my Japanese gun doesn't appear to show rifling. So I guess it was a trainer gun as you stated.

As concerns the sword, I cannot find any other markings on it. But it has been stored in the attic for a long while. If there is an arsenal mark, where on the sword/scabbard would it be located? There is still cosmoline on the blade that is thick in places and I don't want to remove it unless necessary. If you could tell me where on the item (sword or scabbard) where an arsenal mark it usually located, I'll feel better about cleaning it in certain places.

Thank you you so very much!!!

 

[AU Seeker]

 

[callicles]

Thanks. I checked the spot referenced in your picture. Mine is as clean as a whistle. I wonder what that means?

 

[AU Seeker]

OK, then the sword is a later made sword than I thought, some earlier ones did get stamped but later in the war they did stop putting the stamps on the wooden handle version 1 and version 2 NCO swords because they were losing the fight and time was of the essence and the wooden handle version 1 and version 2 NCO swords were the only NCO swords still being made.

There were only 2 arsenals that made the NCO swords, Nagoya Arsenal and Tokyo First Arsenal and another way to tell which arsenal a NCO sword was made at is when reading the serial number is which way the cutting edge of the sword is oriented, if the cutting edge is up when reading the serial number it was made at the Nagoya Arsenal, if the cutting edge is downwards it was made at the Tokyo First Arsenal.

I can't tell for sure from your photo which way the cutting edge is oriented but it looks like it's upwards if so your's was made at the Nagoya Arsenal.

That all being said your sword should be worth more then the rifle I have been seeing swords like your's recently listed on eBay and other sites for between $500 and up too $900, now keep in mind that is what they are listed for not necessarily what they will sell for, you would have to watch the sites to see what they actually end up selling for.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

The common explanation for the removal of the "mum" on Japanese weapons is that since it is the seal of the emperor, and he was regarded as basically god like it was considered an insult to let his crest fall to the hands of an enemy. The Japanese were known for their "death before dishonor" approach to warfare, so that wouldn't be surprising. I've heard that as part of the surrender agreement, the Japanese military officers asked permission to remove the chrysanthemums from their weapons before turning them over, and that MacArthur approved it. There are a few different theories, but this one is the one I think seems most likely.

These captured rifles were given to occupation forces by the thousands after the war, and tons more were dumped in the ocean. One of my friends grandfather was part of a Navy detail tasked with loading them into boats and dumping them. He brought back an absolutely beautiful single shot rifle that he had re-bored into a 28 gauge shotgun because it was chambered for some oddball round. He told us stories of having so many surrendered guns that the guys just didn't want any more of them unless they were pistols. He had a really nice Nambu Type 14 that I'm sure my friend still has. Another friend of mine inherited an Arisaka 38 from his great uncle I believe, I happened to have some 6.5 Jap ammo, and after I checked it out and gave it a good cleaning, I was the first person to fire it since it was dropped on Peliliu in 1944. His still has the mum on it, and he has the capture papers showing it was a combat capture which is really cool and adds a lot of value to the gun. I hadn't thought of either of those in a long time until I saw this post.....

You've got a nice set of weapons there, and it's even better that you knew the vet who brought them home. They are definitely something I'd be proud to own

 

[Leatherneck2111]

OK, then the sword is a later made sword than I thought, some earlier ones did get stamped but later in the war they did stop putting the stamps on the wooden handle version 1 and version 2 NCO swords because they were losing the fight and time was of the essence and the wooden handle version 1 and version 2 NCO swords were the only NCO swords still being made.

There were only 2 arsenals that made the NCO swords, Nagoya Arsenal and Tokyo First Arsenal and another way to tell which arsenal a NCO sword was made at is when reading the serial number is which way the cutting edge of the sword is oriented, if the cutting edge is up when reading the serial number it was made at the Nagoya Arsenal, if the cutting edge is downwards it was made at the Tokyo First Arsenal.

I can't tell for sure from your photo which way the cutting edge is oriented but it looks like it's upwards if so your's was made at the Nagoya Arsenal.

That all being said your sword should be worth more then the rifle I have been seeing swords like your's recently listed on eBay and other sites for between $500 and up too $900, now keep in mind that is what they are listed for not necessarily what they will sell for, you would have to watch the sites to see what they actually end up selling for.

I sold two of the NCO swords at the Tulsa Arms show last year to other collectors and got $600 each, which is honestly top money on them. They can be found around at gun and military shows for as little as $350 on a good day.

 

[callicles]

AU. Okay, I checked and the cutting edge is up when reading the serial numbers. I'm going to buy some wall mounts and hang them on the wall. I will print out the information you and others posted and put it in a frame next to them. Would there be any other information you or others think I should add? Thanks. I'll just put gun oil on the rifle. I guess I'll leave the sword alone. Should I put oil on the scabbard, or just leave it as is? Again, thanks so very much to you and all the others who posted here. I learned a lot.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I'd want to get a pic of the vet and some info about him and his service to hang up with them if I had them. That would put a name and a face to them which is sadly missing from most war relics....

 

[AU Seeker]

I can't tell for sure from your photo, does the scabbard still have the original paint, it appears that the paint is gone and the scabbard is rusty, if that is the case and the paint is gone or nearly so then using gun oil on it would be best to clean it up and stabilize it as with the gun.

 

[callicles]

Nola Ken,

Me too. Unfortunately, the veteran was a customer of my dad back in the 70's. The guy died sometime in the 80's. He can't remember his name. The artifacts were given to my dad for services rendered. I really would love to honor him. But it looks like a dead-end. My dad, up in his age as well, just can't remember his name. But the veteran is certainly honored in spirit for sure!!!!!!!!u

 

[callicles]

I can't tell for sure from your photo, does the scabbard still have the original paint, it appears that the paint is gone and the scabbard is rusty, if that is the case and the paint is gone or nearly so then using gun oil on it would be best to clean it up and stabilize it as with the gun.

Thanks. I cannot find any evidence at all of paint.

 

[callicles]

I can't tell for sure from your photo, does the scabbard still have the original paint, it appears that the paint is gone and the scabbard is rusty, if that is the case and the paint is gone or nearly so then using gun oil on it would be best to clean it up and stabilize it as with the gun.

No paint whatsoever that I can see. Thanks

 

[callicles]

Sorry, I reposted twice. My bad. I was inclined to sell them, but my son begged me not to. Whatever! I just told him he better marry a girl that's willing to put up with the crap! I ain't saying I'm that old, or I'm on the verge of dying (knock on wood), but what advice do you fellows have about leaving an inheritance? I'm a Civil War guy. I'm sort of new here. Can we start a thread about what a Homo Sapien ought to do with their relics? Maybe there is s thread I've missed. Anyway, it's going on the wall.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Sorry, I reposted twice. My bad. I was inclined to sell them, but my son begged me not to. Whatever! I just told him he better marry a girl that's willing to put up with the crap! I ain't saying I'm that old, or I'm on the verge of dying (knock on wood), but what advice do you fellows have about leaving an inheritance? I'm a Civil War guy. I'm sort of new here. Can we start a thread about what a Homo Sapien ought to do with their relics? Maybe there is s thread I've missed. Anyway, it's going on the wall.

I've donated a few things to the National WW2 Museum here, but they were more personal things with a veterans name attached to them and I just thought they would be better off preserved there. If your son likes them, maybe they can be the start of a collection for him.

 

[AU Seeker]

The scabbard should have a serial number as well and it should match the sword's serial number, you should find the number on the lip of the scabbard opening.

Matching number NCO swords have more value than a mismatched NCO sword.

This is a bonding moment for you and your son, if you save them for him he will never forget it and if you don't he will also never forget that, since your father gave them to you they in a sense have become a family heirloom, for your son they're more than just a war relic, they are something that belong to his grandfather and father!