Will Whites go the way of Tesoro?

[Terry Soloman]

At an outing I attended last week in Arizona, there was talk about Whites lagging sales, and worries they will close up like Tesoro over the next year. Normally I wouldn't pay attention to idle talk, but the person doing the talking was a Whites employee.

Since the introduction of the two Minelab Equinox models, other companies are struggling to try and catch up. What are your thoughts on the future of the "Big Four?" Minelab; Garrett; Fisher; Whites

 

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[Woodsy]

Looks like we may start living in a First Texas Products/Minelabs world.

 

[Tahts-a-dats-ago]

I don’t have access to Whites’ sales numbers or their P/L figures so any thoughts [of mine] on their continued business is more of a guess than anything else. I am a fan of their machines (I actually prefer Whites machines) so naturally I am hopeful that they are making metal detecting equipment for many years to come.

I am likely in the minority here, but I don’t see the Equinox as being the slayer of all competition. I would guess that metal detecting enthusiasts see it that way, but the average person doesn’t have the slightest idea of what the Minelab Equinox is. What enthusiasts see/demand/want is far different from what the average person sees/demands/wants.

I know a lot of people who have some interest in metal detecting; most of them wouldn’t dream of dropping more than a couple hundred dollars on a machine. To them it simply isn’t worth the money: they view metal detecting as a once-in-awhile activity that their kids might enjoy.

When it comes to brands I’ve yet to experience anyone (outside of those who are fairly serious about metal detecting) who has heard of Minelab. The brands they typically mention are Bounty Hunter, Radio Shack, Whites, and Garrett. Occasionally someone has heard of Fisher, but even that brand isn’t well known outside of those who take the hobby fairly serious.

The question I most often get — once someone finds out that I enjoy metal detecting — is “is brand X a good metal detector to buy?” Not a specific machine — just a brand. Oftentimes they’ll mention the box store they saw the machine in — and they usually know the price of the machine they saw. For the most part, as far as they’re concerned, all metal detectors are the same (as far as function) and all differences boil down to price and brand.

Back when I owned/used an Etrac it wasn’t unusual for people to ask why I wasn’t using a Bounty Hunter, or Whites machine. They just assumed that those two brands were the best (since they had seen mostly those two brands — and/or Radio Shack).

My guess is that most of the metal detector manufacturers sell far more of their entry level machines than they do their mid level to high end machines. I’d also guess that the bulk of their profits come from those lower end machines. I’d also guess that a good percentage of those lower end machines sit in the closet/garage all but the first month or two after the purchase.

A look at local listings (Craigslist, FB, the newspapers, etc..) bears that out — probably 98% of the machines offered for sale are the lower end models. Lots of Bounty Hunters, Radio Shack, Whites, and Garrett. Occasionally there will be a mid-level or higher machine listed for sale, but even then they’re usually Garrett or Whites.

I think the Equinox had to put a dent in sales of higher end machines — almost all of which are sold to enthusiasts. I also think that market is fairly limited in scope (compared to the fairly large entry level market). I actually think the Equinox cannibalized more Minelab sales than it did sales from other brands.

I think what harmed Tesoro the most was their lack of marketing. I don’t believe I’ve ever had an experience where someone (who isn’t an enthusiast) had heard of the brand. In fact the local dealer (who sells Tesoro) does everything he can to talk people out of buying a Tesoro. I honestly don’t understand why he carries Tesoro — given the way he treats the brand. That dealer pushes Minelab — hard. Enough so that I’m convinced he makes a bigger margin on Minelab products.

I don’t believe the lack of a screen (most models) was all that harmful to Tesoro. I lend my Compadre out to people who want to try metal detecting and everyone of them has loved that machine. They like the simplicity of the machine, and they love the fact that it finds good targets.


My thoughts on the other brands…


First Texas — I think they’re positioned well for the future. Their entry level machines seem to be fairly dominant and Bounty Hunter is a very well known brand in that market segment. People see their machines in the places they visit — including online — without having to specifically search for metal detectors. Their Fisher and Teknetics brands remain reasonably competitive in the higher end segments and there is a good amount of interest in their yet-to-be-released Manta (or whatever it will be named) on the high end.


Minelab — Lots of money behind the brand. They’re the market leader in higher end machines and advertise quite a lot. I suspect their entry level machines don’t do all that well (market wise) so there is room for improvement — or room for disaster (if they don’t shore that end of the market up). I think Minelab lost margin because of their own product eating sales of their higher end machines, but expect Minelab to roll out a couple of higher end replacements in the next year or so.


Garrett — They seem to have a fair chunk of the entry level market and a pretty decent share of the mid-level market. I think they got a big boost from their sponsorship of various metal detecting shows on television, but that venue appears to be all but gone now. They do a pretty good job with social media marketing though. I suspect they’re disappointed with the sales of the AT Max, and I think the Equinox likely hurt Garrett more than it hurt any other brand.


Whites — I think they need a better entry level marketing plan. Their product (I believe it is called X-venture) isn’t well known and doesn’t appear to have much support from the company. I think Whites is doing ok with their next level machines — Treasure Master and Treasure Pro. I think their strength (sales wise) is with the MX7, MX Sport, MXT All Pro but I suspect they’re not gaining market share (just selling to Whites fans for the most part). Their new gold machine appears to have some support, as does their latest TDI Beach machine, but it is too early to tell if those machines are earning extra sales. I suspect the V3 and V3i are selling rather slowly now — thanks in large part to the Equinox and its lower price(s).

As much as I’d love to see a new waterproof V3i, I think Whites really needs to concentrate on marketing their lower end machines to new buyers and building brand recognition. The brand is very well known with people 40 and over, but the younger generations don’t know as much about it. Whites has a decent social media presence though and a lot of brand loyalty from its users, so it does have the building blocks it needs (if they decide to take advantage of them).

I think Whites should tear a page out of their old book and introduce a throwback machine — no screen, beep and dig machine in a light weight form, multiple tones, manual ground balance, great discrimination machine that retails for $250 - $300. There are a lot of enthusiasts who want such a machine and it would be a great way to get people talking about (and interested in) the brand. If they could make it waterproof that would be icing on the cake. Best of all — they shouldn’t need much R/D to do it, and they could use existing parts for the most part.


Nokta-Makro — Outside of enthusiasts nobody (USA) has heard of the company. Still, I think the company is well positioned to grow their brand. Thanks in large part to their constant innovation and drive to improve their products. They have a decent social media presence and Dilek is worth her weight in gold and then some. With the coming entry level machine, Nokta-Makro should make some inroads into that end of the market, and the developing multi-frequency machine is sure to draw a lot of attention on the other end.

 

[Professor of Engineering]

Thank you for sharing your very well thought out post!

 

[teleprospector]

Like some people here, I own different brands of detectors and I'm still hoping we have a place to send our detectors in for correct analysis/repairs no matter who comes and goes.
Jon

 

[Rick K]

Whites resembles Tesoro in one way - departure of very active founder and family continuing to own/run the business. The temptation in those curcumstances to underinvest/over “harvest” the proceeds can lead to a downward spiral. Apparently a near total turn-over of engineering staff had occurred, perhaps more than once, in the last few years. The V3 line, for example is unlikely to be developed further - the cost of writing new code that complex is probably beyond their means, especially since the engineer who did the V3 software now works for First Texas.

Garrett’s lack of change in its product line is puzzling. The failure to introduce a lightweight version of the ATX is stunning.

First Texas seems to be moving aggressively to adapt to new realities in pricing of detectors. Currently, for example, Costco is selling the BH Discovery 3300 for $89. Until recently that unit was priced at $349. Less dramatic, but pretty large price cuts across their product lines have gone on in the last year. They can do this because of their huge volume and perhaps dealing directly with big box stores for the BH brand. They have even introduced direct to customer sales on their Teknetics and Ameritech brands.

The European companies have an ever growing regional market and products focused on their hunting conditions - emphasis on tones and sensitivity to mid-conductors along with good iron handling.

 

[Rick K]

A good measure of the magnitude of the effort/cost of bringing a new machine to market is the very small number of new introductions we see.

With the exception of Nokia/Makro, truly new machine introductions for the rest of the industry seem to occur at 2-5 year intervals per manufacturer. First Texas had a burst of new models a couple of years back with the F22/F44 intro. since than, a pinpointer. This from a company with a large engineering staff and financially healthy.

These are small businesses. Development teams are tiny - then there is the whole business of “productionizing” the electronics design. Reducing the complexity/cost of the boards and components so that the build cost in minimized and the ease and reliability of assembly is assured. Then mechanical design has to go through the same process. Committment of hundreds of thousands of $$ for tooling and initial component procurement. A big deal - and a big risk.

 

[Escape]

I hope some manufacture or tech savvy start up is working on incorporating artificial intelligence for detectors.
I think at present things have gone pretty much as far as its going to go with current technology.

 

[TerryC]

As with ALL successful companies, they must evolve. Those in the marketing offices know this. Those that evolve will survive. I have been with Garrett for decades. To say again, Garrett has a good business profile. They will evolve and survive. And, I believe, so will Bounty Hunter! Watch this one fill the entry level niche with good, cheap machines to attract the beginner. TTC

 

[Philvis]

I think Tesoro's biggest issue wasn't advertising, but simply the lack of innovation. It's hard to advertise a group of machines that just haven't changed in decades. Tesoro needed badly to shift to digital to keep up. I know on here you have people that swear by them (I had a Tejon which was a super solid machine), but the majority of the public are not interested in driving a stick shift, when most vehicles are automatics. It's a small subset that does.

As far as White's, I think their biggest issue was they just got lost with the emergence of the likes of the XP Deus, Minelab, and even Garrett. They feel more like a Saab of metal detectors to me. Great machines, but just a much smaller contingent of loyal followers. When you turn on the Youtube channels of people metal detecting, you see them swinging typically one of three machines; XP Deus, Garrett AT, or a Minelab. So when people who watch those videos go out to buy their own detectors, that is what they get.

Like it or not, the Minelab Equinox has set the bar for metal detectors. The XP Deus is still too expensive for the casual hobbyist or person looking to get into it. If Garret can upgrade their AT line to be more lightweight, multi-frequency, they will be golden. If White's gets themselves a multi-frequency machine out and then can advertise it properly, they could see a resurgence of their brand. I know they have had national commercials in the past, but they were very vanilla. I think the key for all these brands is to become a staple on the Youtube channels featuring metal detecting. Youtube is the new TV.

 

[jcc]

To do AI in a detector needs a fast processor, fast processor eats batteries. Something like a Analog Devices Black Fin DSP processor at 400-800 Mhz adds a lot of complexity and development cost. The software licenses on the development tool set and the required hardware are about the same as the cost of the engineer's salary...

What you get today is rule based, and the assumption that your target is the size of a quarter?...

 

[Professor of Engineering]

IMHO: I am wondering if White's could modify their V3i multi-frequency (three) machine to be lighter, additional frequencies (i.e. 15 KHz and 45 KHz), lighter, waterproof and gear the user options down a bit. A faster processor would be needed, but well worth the effort, cost and may lead into a different "class" of detectors for the company. I occasionally use my V3i & DFX machines and do find them fun and productive in the field.

 

[Argentium]

Well we certainly see the pendulum swing from brands and models periodically. Perhaps others are doing better at adapting their business models than White's at this moment . I remember when all we heard about was the Minelab SE, then it seemed to go toward the Etrac, then XP deus was all the rage ,then At Pro , now it seems to be Equinox 800. I have stayed with the first generation MXT for a decade or so , I would like it better if they could go waterproof with it , but other than that I'm still pretty happy with it . I think that if these manufacturers can put out a fairly light weight machine, that is simple to learn, waterproof ,and keep it well under a $1000. they should do well.

 

[A2coins]

I hope not we need more brands and options

 

[QMaze]

I hope some manufacture or tech savvy start up is working on incorporating artificial intelligence for detectors.
I think at present things have gone pretty much as far as its going to go with current technology.

Yeah sit at home, drink beer, send the detector out on a quest through Google Maps and don't let it back in the house till its weighted down with gold. lol

 

[Icewing]

This is the digital age. Personally I think metal detector technology has a bit of catching up to do.
I'm not exactly young but I see anything that's analog and still uses a needle as antiquated.

I think it's just a matter of time till we can buy a handle and coil, then go home, download an app, pair it with the bluetooth on our phone. Then we can just clip the phone onto the handle and go. Then when you get a phonecall it rings in your headphones.

As for brands like Whites and Bounty Hunter, to me they are the guys who make stuff today that the innovators created a decade ago. They will always be an entry level brand.

 

[chub]

The black metal box that Whites are famous for never really worked for me.It kept bumping into my hip as I walked. Its about as antiquated as Tesoros gold anodised face plate. Why did nobody ever make a cheap PI?? A surfmaster without the heavy expensive waterproof box?


Chub

 

[Bill G]

This is the digital age. Personally I think metal detector technology has a bit of catching up to do.
I'm not exactly young but I see anything that's analog and still uses a needle as antiquated.

I think it's just a matter of time till we can buy a handle and coil, then go home, download an app, pair it with the bluetooth on our phone. Then we can just clip the phone onto the handle and go. Then when you get a phonecall it rings in your headphones.

As for brands like Whites and Bounty Hunter, to me they are the guys who make stuff today that the innovators created a decade ago. They will always be an entry level brand.

Part of this statement is off base a little about White's to me, the last part of your statement primarily being an entry level brand. (Quote) you said-As for brands like Whites and Bounty Hunter, to me they are the guys who make stuff today that the innovators created a decade ago. They will always be an entry level brand.(End Quote)

Yes, it is the Digital age your correct. Everyone jumps on the band wagon if it looks or has a screen like a modern cell phone, touch pads and all. Whites was darn innovative and a leader for many years giving us much of the technology in detecting we have today. Oh and by the way not much has really changed over all in VLF technology since the early to mid 2000 2007 era.

All these manufacturers right now are just repackaging the same technology that was improved in these years with the added benefit of making some things a little lighter and smaller. Over all VLF technology is tapped out unless there is some type of big breakthrough. Bounty Hunter, Garrett, Fisher and Whites have always marketed entry level detectectors as well as high end ones. With that said the part of your statement that i agree with is yes Bounty Hunter has always been marketed pretty much as an entry level detector and still is by First Texas today. Garrett has the market cornered in the entry level with the Ace line of detectors.

There has been some gains in the speed and recovery of later model detectors and the weight and size of detectors oh and more modern looks. But most detectors on the market today still don't out hunt over all say a White's MXT or even some of the older Tesoro or even Fisher designs.

Oh and then there is the newest latest and greatest Minelab Nox thing right now and it reminds me of every time a new detector that has a little something has come to the market no matter the brand.The Nox does look to be quite nice and light with a few innovative features. For me though I have never been a Minelab fan but that could change someday. I personally prefer to support USA built if possible and this could change if the US companies get bought out or go by the way side.

The Nox seems to get decent depth and are light and look like a cell phone mounted to a shaft with a nice touch screen. The Nox is very appealing to the tech types but over all do they hunt really that much deeper or better? for me the verdict is still out. We will see when all the Minelab hype dies down just like is has on every other Minelab that has came previous. All the depth claims with the Nox, well the Nox should get good depth, look at the size of the coils that come on them. Then there's Minelabs patented multi frequency which I am sure helps in salt water situations with VLF technology a plus for many years now with Minelab, nothing really new here.I personally still thing a good PI will get better depth still in head to head testing on salt water sand.

I still don't think right now all the newest latest and greatest to date will out hunt in exsperianced hands some of the older proven detectors we all know and have loved from White's, Fisher, Garrett, Minelab, Tesoro and so on.

New designs like the Nox detector have cool touch screens, blue tooth built in (pretty cool until there's an issue) and are a little lighter maybe a hair faster processing (been issues with updates not perfect yet) Again time will tell. These things are pretty much over all the biggest changes and good changes at that but not the Holly Grail yet in VLF technology. At least not yet.

I think Whites flag ship multi frequency V3i units do perform somewhat key word here somewhat like the Nox detectors. The issue being there just a hair outdated on looks, weight and being water proof and seem to be more complicated to set up. (Again White's was a leader a few years back here on design). Maybe White's will will step up in technology and do something about that or maybe not. Time will tell.

I am sure all the other manufacturers will follow the same trend or maybe not time will tell here as well.

All The Best,
Bill G

 

[against the wind]

An awful lot of good stuff being posted here. I favored Garrett for many, many years. I stepped up to the Minelab Etrac after constantly witnessing it find 5 Silvers to every one Silver that my AT PRO was finding. Results are what I was looking for. However, Garrett has and still maintains a proven record of after sales support. The Etrac does not have the water tight integrity that I came to enjoy with the AT PRO. (Freshwater only,)
Living close to the ocean and being a surf and turf kind of hunter,, I elected to go with the wet suit and an Excalibur. There were my fears of having to someday face the poor "after sales support reputation" that Minelab had. Not if my machine stopped functioning, but When. Some people say that when Minelab got a lock on the government military contract, they kind of left the hobbyist hanging. Somehow, Minelab's reputation as being weak in the area of customer support and repairs has finally been addressed. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope that they stay attentive to the needs of the Minelab owner. I sent in one of my Excaliburs for repairs and was pleasantly surprised. Professional service and courteous communication was what I received.
Another need for metal detectors is evident in the security fields. I believe Garrett has the largest share of that. Just look at all airports, courts, government buildings, and nightclubs. I always see a Garret wand, at the least.
My needs and the areas I searched are what dictated which machines I would purchase and use.
I see these 2 companies as remaining solvent for a long time to come.
I'm blessed to be able to purchase the machines that I feel will help me find those evasive gold and silver treasures. Whether it's a single seated dime or a gold ring. Again,, for me, the tool has to be right for the job.
My CTX 3030 is the weapon of choice in some of the bottle cap infested parks of NYC, while my XP DEUS is better suited for the open farm fields of Pennsylvania.
This talk of Whites, going under, well I don't know if it will or not. I do know a Whites Dealer who has been selling White's products for around 20 years. He is not happy with the direction in which the company is going.
I did work on helping a newbie set up his Equinox 600.
He has done quite well with it. I know that I really don't need another metal detector, but if I was to purchase another one,, I would be leaning towards the Equinox 800.
If I run into you guys out there swinging a coil, which machine you are using, isn't all that important to me.
What is important is that we are enjoying the hobby.

 

[Professor of Engineering]

Nice well thought out post!