Why C2?

[bigscoop]

You're getting two different things confused as one. Go take a look at novels, as I suggested, and the confusion will be made clear. I know about writing and I stand by what I said. A novel is automatically considered fiction, and the creative part is the reason why. Talk to a publisher if you don't believe me.

Dude, I can appreciate what you're suggesting "if" one continues to research the modern eras by comparison. However, we are not speaking of the modern era, we are 150 years beyond the era of the Beale papers.

I too happen to know a great deal about writing and publishing and I can tell you that a lot has changed in the past 150 years so do yourself a favor and go about some "old" book stores and see if you can find some of those old first run classic dime novels, see how many of them are advertised as actually being "fiction".

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Old Silver]

Dude, I can appreciate what you're suggesting "if" one continues to research the modern eras by comparison. However, we are not speaking of the modern era, we are 150 years beyond the era of the Beale papers.

I too happen to know a great deal about writing and publishing and I can tell you that a lot has changed in the past 150 years so do yourself a favor and go about some "old" book stores and see if you can find some of those old first run classic dime novels, see how many of them are advertised as actually being "fiction".

I have looked at some of the dime novels. They seem to be given, not as true stories, but as legends and tales.

So, do you think the author of the Beale papers was publishing it as a fiction? That was obviously not the case. Remember he said that in publishing the papers, it might bring out someone with the missing paper (key). He obviously wasn't giving it as a work of fiction.

 

[ECS]

Dude, I can appreciate what you're suggesting "if" one continues to research the modern eras by comparison. However, we are not speaking of the modern era, we are 150 years beyond the era of the Beale papers.

I too happen to know a great deal about writing and publishing and I can tell you that a lot has changed in the past 150 years so do yourself a favor and go about some "old" book stores and see if you can find some of those old first run classic dime novels, see how many of them are advertised as actually being "fiction".

When James Beverly Ward applied for copyright as agent on the letterhead of Adams Bros & Paynes Feed Stores Ward's son-in-law was employed there), he applied with only the title of the book, not the manuscript.
The entire title was : "THE BEALE PAPERS containing Authentic Statements Regarding the TREASURE BURIED in 1819 and 1821, near Buford's in Bedford County, Virginia, and Which Has Never Been Recovered"
The Library on Congress entered Ward's application, March 31, 1885 #7558Q as :"has deposited in this office the title of a book, the title or description of is in the following words, to wit...", the entire title as quoted above.
So what is meant by "Authentic Statements" when applying for a US copyright in 1885?
It denotes that the work is an original work, free from claims of infringement from others, and the sole ownership is that of the author and/or agent.
IT DOES NOT CONFIRM that the story contained therein, to be true.

 

[bigscoop]

After many-many avenues of various research I am pretty certain that the alleged letters are bogus and that C2 wasn't even required in his alleged communications with Morriss, these having been created solely for the purpose of the publication in question. I also believe these points, as well as others contained in that publication, are the very reason why your author didn't title his story, "THE BEALE PAPERS, A True Narrative Regarding The TREASURE BURIED In 1819 and 1821, Near Buford's In Bedford County, Virginia, And Which Has Never Been Recovered"

 

[Old Silver]

When James Beverly Ward applied for copyright as agent on the letterhead of Adams Bros & Paynes Feed Stores Ward's son-in-law was employed there), he applied with only the title of the book, not the manuscript.
The entire title was : "THE BEALE PAPERS containing Authentic Statements Regarding the TREASURE BURIED in 1819 and 1821, near Buford's in Bedford County, Virginia, and Which Has Never Been Recovered"
The Library on Congress entered Ward's application, March 31, 1885 #7558Q as :"has deposited in this office the title of a book, the title or description of is in the following words, to wit...", the entire title as quoted above.
So what is meant by "Authentic Statements" when applying for a US copyright in 1885?
It denotes that the work is an original work, free from claims of infringement from others, and the sole ownership is that of the author and/or agent.
IT DOES NOT CONFIRM that the story contained therein, to be true.

No one said it meant the story was true. It means the statements are authentic to the ones who made them, and about the treasure. Original statements about the treasure, by Morriss, and maybe by Beale.

 

[Old Silver]

After many-many avenues of various research I am pretty certain that the alleged letters are bogus and that C2 wasn't even required in his alleged communications with Morriss, these having been created solely for the purpose of the publication in question. I also believe these points, as well as others contained in that publication, are the very reason why your author didn't title his story, "THE BEALE PAPERS, A True Narrative Regarding The TREASURE BURIED In 1819 and 1821, Near Buford's In Bedford County, Virginia, And Which Has Never Been Recovered"

No, he didn't entitle it a true story, but he did give it as true, and that means he wanted the public to believe it. This would be the same public who were around in 1820 and would have known if Beale had existed or not. So in order for them to believe his story, the author would not have made up a fictional character, I'm pretty sure.

 

[ECS]

All that "authentic statements" imply is that the story narrative contained in the 1885 Beale Papers is an original work, not that any portion of the story is true.
Also anyone who was in their twenties and could have known Beale and Morris in the 1820's would all be well into their eighties if they were still alive in 1885.

 

[Old Silver]

All that "authentic statements" imply is that the story narrative contained in the 1885 Beale Papers is an original work, not that any portion of the story is true.
Also anyone who was in their twenties and could have known Beale and Morris in the 1820's would all be well into their eighties if they were still alive in 1885.

No sir, it says authentic statements concerning treasure. Now, who made the statements about the treasure? Whoever it was, the author says their statements are authentic. He didn't say the story itself is authentic, as you said, but he said THE STATMENTS are authentic. I never said authentic meant true.

Those people were indeed alive in 1885. I have done the research on it. You can do the same.

 

[bigscoop]

No, he didn't entitle it a true story, but he did give it as true,.....

No. And that's the point. He even refrains from making such claim. Even warns his readers against dedicating too much time to solving the mystery. Just saying....

 

[Old Silver]

No. And that's the point. He even refrains from making such claim. Even warns his readers against dedicating too much time to solving the mystery. Just saying....

Come on bigscoop, you're better than that. You're going to say he didn't give the story as true, when you know he said he was publishing the story in hopes it might bring out the missing paper? He is definitely giving the story as true. And then you say he didn't give it as true because he warns not to spend so much time on it that it would bring ruin, as it did on him? Come on. He even called the story a history.

 

[ECS]

A Beale "letter" does state that "the GAME is worth the candle"-the GAME being the ciphers.
...and as Bigscoop mentioned there is that disclaimer.

 

[Old Silver]

A Beale "letter" does state that "the GAME is worth the candle"-the GAME being the ciphers.
...and as Bigscoop mentioned there is that disclaimer.

You're taking that out of context. He was talking about the perils they faced. He was saying the perils are worth the risks. Read it for yourself.

 

[ECS]

No sir, it says authentic statements concerning treasure. Now, who made the statements about the treasure? Whoever it was, the author says their statements are authentic. He didn't say the story itself is authentic, as you said, but he said THE STATMENTS are authentic. I never said authentic meant true.

Those people were indeed alive in 1885. I have done the research on it. You can do the same.

Are you insinuating that a deposition of an 80 year old person in the late 1880's exists that states that they had personal knowledge the Beale met Morriss and gave him an iron box to hold for 10 years?

 

[bigscoop]

Come on bigscoop, you're better than that. You're going to say he didn't give the story as true, when you know he said he was publishing the story in hopes it might bring out the missing paper? He is definitely giving the story as true. And then you say he didn't give it as true because he warns not to spend so much time on it that it would bring ruin, as it did on him? Come on. He even called the story a history.

This is my opinion, my summation of the Beale narration. If I gave you a bushel basket full of oranges with two apples in the bottom of the basket and I told you that "the basket contains apples" then am I telling a lie? The obvious answer to this is a resounding, No! Fact is, the bushel basket full of oranges does contain apples. That basket could have 100, 200, 500, oranges in it but as long as it also contains my two apples then I have told you the truth because the basket also contains my two apples. This pretty much sums up the entire Beale narration from start to finish, a story with a lot of oranges and some apples.

 

[Old Silver]

This is my opinion, my summation of the Beale narration. If I gave you a bushel basket full of oranges with two apples in the bottom of the basket and I told you that "the basket contains apples" then am I telling a lie? The obvious answer to this is a resounding, No! Fact is, the bushel basket full of oranges does contain apples. That basket could have 100, 200, 500, oranges in it but as long as it also contains my two apples then I have told you the truth because the basket also contains my two apples. This pretty much sums up the entire Beale narration from start to finish, a story with a lot of oranges and some apples.

Some apples would be better than no apples.

 

[bigscoop]

Some apples would be better than no apples.

Probably seedless.

 

[Old Silver]

Probably seedless.

If we look hard enough, we might find a peach in there somewhere.

 

[ECS]

You're taking that out of context. He was talking about the perils they faced. He was saying the perils are worth the risks. Read it for yourself.

It is in context with the entire narrative story text- a game that they will play to the end.
This is on of several "tells" in the job pamphlet.

 

[bigscoop]

In 1816 a Thomas Beale loses a fortune in a sensational bankruptcy.
In 1817, and on the other side of the ocean, we have the start of the now famous Thomas Beale treasure mystery.
The Thomas Beale treasure mystery is said to have been confined to immediate family and one trusted friend.
C3 is to contain the names of those deserving, and/or their heirs.
C3 is too short to contain what it claims to contain unless those individuals are somehow related and confined to just a few locations.
The region of Virginia in question and the surrounding territory was loaded with Beale's.
Hmmmmmm.........

 

[ECS]

I have looked at some of the dime novels. They seem to be given, not as true stories, but as legends and tales...

What they had in common is the use of real names of people, either dead or alive during publication, in adventures that were solely the creation of the author. It was at he readers discretion to decide if the tales were truth or fiction.