Whiskey Springs Maps

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T12:06:24-0600

markmar said:
DeGrazia lived in Tucson, but he loved the Superstitions lore, the most that with treasures hidden there by the Jesuits.
He went in the Superstitions three times, the first time for few days searching for the LDM and other treasures in the WN area, the second time to burn some paintings at Angel Basin, and third time to hide the precious paintings.

Degrazia had not knowledge of caves or mines in the Superstitions, so he rel on Bob Ward's help. There is something someone has to keep in his mind: the hiding place should be in a place, easy to approach and easy to keep an eye on it. Bob Ward was in some way, responsible for the safe keeping, until Ted or someone else from his family would come to his cabin an ask for the paintings. Nobody, not even Ted could bypass Bob in regards to go an take the paintings by himself, as long as Bob was alive.

Im pretty sure he went in more than 3 times. His museum says "frequent" visitor for over 3 decades. Im not sure how you'd know how many times someone went into the Sups. Over 3 decades w/i a 2 hour drive and he's only been there 3 times? And he LOVES this place??

"DeGrazia had not knowledge of caves...."
How did you draw that conclusion, out of curiousity...? If you know what he knew about caves, can you tell me what he knew about mountain lions too or algebra?
Im not saying you're wrong. I just want to see the thought process that led you to these conclusions.

markmar · 2024-12-03T12:26:05-0600

cuzimloony said:
Im pretty sure he went in more than 3 times. His museum says "frequent" visitor for over 3 decades. Im not sure how you'd know how many times someone went into the Sups. Over 3 decades w/i a 2 hour drive and he's only been there 3 times? And he LOVES this place?? Sure.

"DeGrazia had not knowledge of caves...."
How did you draw that conclusion, out of curiousity...? If you know what he knew about caves, can you tell me what he knew about mountain lions too or algebra?
Im not saying you're wrong. I just want to see the thought process that led you to these conclusions.
View attachment 2181756

The same question to you: What was the source of Christine Hubbard in regards to make that statement?

You can wonder as much as you want, it's your right, but don't ask for proof when you can't cover your source.
Like you have understood, nothing written can be proved without witnesses. Everyone writes what he likes and everyone is free to swallow what he likes too.If Ted would been so familiar with the superstitions, then he would not drew WN east from East Boulder Canyon and Four Peaks NW from WN. My statement is closer to his map than anothers articles.

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T12:45:20-0600

markmar said:
The same question to you: What was the source of Christine Hubbard in regards to make that statement?

You can wonder as much as you want, it's your right, but don't ask for proof when you can't cover your source.
Like you have understood, nothing written can be proved without witnesses. Everyone writes what he likes and everyone is free to swallow what he likes too.If ted would been so familiar with the superstitions, then he would not drew WN east from East Boulder Canyon and Four Peaks NW from WN. My statement is closer to his map than anothers articles.

This story wasn't on the marcmar journal of DeGrazia expeditions. It's a trip he took with his wife, a newspaper reporter AND a photographer for the sole purpose of getting his wife in the Sups. Either go find that newspaper and update your short-sighted and horribly innacurate list or accept the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. There are 4 or 5 more stories just in this one book of Ted in the Sups that aren't on your list. Ted was in these mountains COUNTLESS times, imo, and I CAN prove more than three trips. Well, if you accept the words of his friends as proof.
Who are we to believe? A friend and writing (and riding) partner of DeGrazia's....or marcmar?
Tough choice for me.

SPARTANOC · 2024-12-03T12:45:47-0600

cuzimloony said:
Im pretty sure he went in more than 3 times. His museum says "frequent" visitor for over 3 decades. Im not sure how you'd know how many times someone went into the Sups. Over 3 decades w/i a 2 hour drive and he's only been there 3 times? And he LOVES this place??

"DeGrazia had not knowledge of caves...."
How did you draw that conclusion, out of curiousity...? If you know what he knew about caves, can you tell me what he knew about mountain lions too or algebra?
Im not saying you're wrong. I just want to see the thought process that led you to these conclusions.
View attachment 2181756

My assessment (and there's no source - other than my imagination), that if Ted KNEW the mountains well, been out there multiple times - I'm sure he had knowledge of at least some of the caves out there. I hear of many who spot some of these caves, just while walking around and NOT trying to search for anything. Just like you Cuz, you spotted some possible caves out in Whiskey Springs all while just walking through the area. And you were moving quite quickly I must say (show off :laughing7:

).

SPARTANOC · 2024-12-03T13:06:30-0600

markmar said:
The same question to you: What was the source of Christine Hubbard in regards to make that statement?

You can wonder as much as you want, it's your right, but don't ask for proof when you can't cover your source.
Like you have understood, nothing written can be proved without witnesses. Everyone writes what he likes and everyone is free to swallow what he likes too.If Ted would been so familiar with the superstitions, then he would not drew WN east from East Boulder Canyon and Four Peaks NW from WN. My statement is closer to his map than anothers articles.

Isn't Christine Hubbard a curator of De Grazia's museum, today?

Exactly how much would she of known of De Grazia's frequent trips to certain locations in the Supes?

markmar · 2024-12-03T13:19:27-0600

cuzimloony said:
This story wasn't on the marcmar journal of DeGrazia expeditions. It's a trip he took with his wife, a newspaper reporter AND a photographer for the sole purpose of getting his wife in the Sups. Either go find that newspaper and update your short-sighted and horribly innacurate list or accept the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. There are 4 or 5 more stories just in this one book of Ted in the Sups that aren't on your list. Ted was in these mountains COUNTLESS times, imo, and I CAN prove more than three trips. Well, if you accept the words of his friends as proof.
Who are we to believe? A friend and writing (and riding) partner of DeGrazia's....or marcmar?
Tough choice for me.
View attachment 2181765

Can you find another article which says about another trip of Ted in the Superstitions, except those mentioned by me?
All who wrote about him used the words " often " and " frequent ", but nobody can write for certain how many. Why not? You know how many times you went in the mountains? For sure you know and you will remember this to tell to someone if you wiil want to be precise. The other words are just to avoid precision and to leave imagination works.

SPARTANOC · 2024-12-03T13:27:23-0600

markmar said:
Can you find another article which says about another trip of Ted in the Superstitions, except those mentionrd by me?
All who wrote about him used the words " often " and " frequent ", but nobody can write for certain how many. Why not? You know how many times you went in the mountains? For sure you know and you will remember this to tell to someone if you wiil want to be precise. The other words are just to avoid precision and to leave imagination works.

To think, that someone like De Grazia who LOVED the Mountain range (the Supes) as much as he did, would only go in there maybe 3 times - is absurd. I don't think we need someone's writing to inform us of the obvious.

Any place that I love to frequent - I'm certainly going there more than 3 times....

...It's just that, we have been informed of at least 3 times regarding De Grazia, but I think I can safely state - he went in there more frequently. Why not.

-SpartanOC

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T13:39:57-0600

markmar said:
Can you find another article which says about another trip of Ted in the Superstitions, except those mentioned by me?
All who wrote about him used the words " often " and " frequent ", but nobody can write for certain how many. Why not? You know how many times you went in the mountains? For sure you know and you will remember this to tell to someone if you wiil want to be precise. The other words are just to avoid precision and to leave imagination works.

I have no idea how many times I've been in "the mountains." I was born in the mountains. I lived in the mountains and now I am there weekly. If you had to ask, I've been in the mountains thousands of times, sometimes more than once in one day. I have no idea how YOU can calculate this.
Your argument is nonsense. Not every trip he took was written about. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that the vast MAJORITY of trips he took, nobody wrote about. BUT....to your point, this isn't just an "article." It's an article AND a book that talk about the same trip, the one not on your list. Did someone write about every time he had lasagna? Or how about how many times he forgot his favorite socks on his horseback trips into the Sups? Not every detail of his life was written about. Not every trip was written about. I feel like I'm explaining this to a 3rd grader, when a kindergartner would understand.
More CIRCLES from marcmar. Surprise surprise.

markmar · 2024-12-03T13:42:05-0600

Why Ted would love Superstitions more than other mountains which were closer to his home? He loved exactly what you love too about this mountains, and he painted this out. Superstitions would be not so loved without its treasures lore.

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T13:42:55-0600

markmar said:
Why Ted would love Superstitions more than other mountains which were closer to his home? He loved exactly what you love too about this mountains, and he painted this out. Superstitions would be not so loved without its treasures lore.

So he loved these mountains...... and he only went there three times. Are you doing a circle logic session all by yourself over there dude?

markmar · 2024-12-03T13:55:34-0600

cuzimloony said:
I have no idea how many times I've been in "the mountains." I was born in the mountains. I lived in the mountains and now I am there weekly. If you had to ask, I've been in the mountains thousands of times, sometimes more than once in one day. I have no idea how YOU can calculate this.
Your argument is nonsense. Not every trip he took was written about. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that the vast MAJORITY of trips he took, nobody wrote about. BUT....to your point, this isn't just an "article." It's an article AND a book that talk about the same trip, the one not on your list. Did someone write about every time he had lasagna? Or how about how many times he forgot his favorite socks on his horseback trips into the Sups? Not every detail of his life was written about. Not every trip was written about. I feel like I'm explaining this to a 3rd grader, when a kindergartner would understand.
More CIRCLES from marcmar. Surprise surprise.

When I wrote "mountains" I was referring to Superstitions, because that was the subject of the discussion. but I don't expect from you to have understood so fast.
Here are not circles, if you want to know where Ted hid his paintings, you have to learn to listen to every possible option which someone offers. The spot where the paintings are hidden would not change location if Ted went multiple or few times in the Superstitions.
What logic says , has nothing to do with facts. You have to choose what are you interested in and to focus there.

markmar · 2024-12-03T14:18:29-0600

cuzimloony said:
So he loved these mountains...... and he only went there three times. Are you doing a circle logic session all by yourself over there dude?

Nobody loves a specific mountain without a reason. There are plenty of beautiful mountains to see and explore. If would be for the scenery and trips on my feet, I would choose a different mountain every time to make it more exciting, and not going on the same mountain many times.
That gold bug makes people to love some big rocks and boosts their imagination.

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T14:23:09-0600

markmar said:
Nobody loves a specific mountain without a reason. There are plenty of beautiful mountains to see and explore. If would be for the scenery and trips on my feet, I would choose a different mountain every time to make it more exciting, and not going on the same mountain many times.
That gold bug makes people to love some big rocks and boosts their imagination.

I thought we were talking about Ted?

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T14:25:09-0600

markmar said:
Nobody loves a specific mountain without a reason.

"The more you see her the more attractive and magnificent she becomes......"
-deGrazia

The guy who wrote the above about the sups had only been there 3 times.
Everything was really just his "imagination."
-marcmar

markmar · 2024-12-03T14:27:15-0600

cuzimloony said:
I thought we were talking about Ted?

Yes, if you pay little attention, my post was answering to yours ( I quote your post which you are referring to Ted (He).
Think twise before write.

cuzimloony · 2024-12-03T14:31:40-0600

markmar said:
Yes, if you pay little attention, my post was answering to yours ( I quote your post which you are referring to Ted (He).
Think twise before write.

No. More than half of your response was about you, not Ted, and we want to know about Ted, not you.

markmar · 2024-12-03T14:37:24-0600

cuzimloony said:
View attachment 2181777

"The more you see her the more attractive and magnificent she becomes......"
-deGrazia

The guy who wrote the above about the sups had only been there 3 times.
Everything was really just his "imagination."
-marcmar

To me that text seems to has been wrote by someone who had smoked at least three cigarettes filled with BB's wild weed. I don't know if crack was then for sale. It's what I wrote, that gold bug boosts imagination to high levels.

markmar · 2024-12-03T14:40:53-0600

cuzimloony said:
No. More than half of your response was about you, not Ted, and we want to know about Ted, not you.

I could give a response to this, but I'm not so good at math as you are.

SPARTANOC · 2024-12-03T14:46:11-0600

markmar said:
Nobody loves a specific mountain without a reason. There are plenty of beautiful mountains to see and explore. If would be for the scenery and trips on my feet, I would choose a different mountain every time to make it more exciting, and not going on the same mountain many times.
That gold bug makes people to love some big rocks and boosts their imagination.

And yet - there has been "finds" back in the Supes.

markmar · 2024-12-03T14:49:51-0600

SPARTANOC said:
And yet - there has been "finds" back in the Supes.

This fact makes the mountain love hotest.

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