nomad 11
Bronze Member
well the way i see it. if it falls from the heavens God sent it to ya. it should be urs to keep
When is a meteorite not yours?
- Thread starter Tuberale
- Start date
If you read the internal policy "Instruction Memorandum" you linked to you would know it was not ever a law and it expired at the end of September 2013. It's right there at the top.
Casual collection by the public is permitted as you noted. It's the same regulations regarding casual collection by the public of any mineral or rock substance found on the public lands. Not even sure why the Assistant Director, Renewable Resources and Planning would bother writing this memorandum. It's outside of his job description and it didn't change any existing law or regulation. Mission creep I suppose. In any case that memorandum expired seven years ago.
BLM managed lands are not owned by the BLM. By definition they are public lands owned by the people of the United States. You can discover, mine and patent mineral deposits of meteorites of any size without a permit.
Knockneed Man
Jr. Member
- Feb 21, 2018
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Question for you experts.. about three weeks ago I went to the grocery store just after dusk, and I was walking through the parking lot when something traced across the sky in front of me from an east to west direction. It was not dark dark out - maybe the first couple of stars were out. It was no shooting star out in the heavens, it was something going through our atmosphere, and was super bright and did a flash after going across what I would guess to be about 40% across the skyscape above me. Obviously I donāt know if it was a meteorite, could have been space trash for all I know, but hypothetically speaking, if it were, how far away would that have landed from me if it was within such viewing range? 20 miles away? 500 miles? Was contemplating that after the fact.
It's only a meteorite if it actually lands on earth. Most space rock that enters the atmosphere is very small and burns up long before it reaches earth. Meteorites are not rare but meteorites big enough to see with the naked eye are not very common.
After the space rock enters the atmosphere the surface of the rock heats up from the deceleration of slamming into air. The actual "burn" takes place very high in the atmosphere and only heats a thin portion of the rock surface. If a space rock survives to land on earth most of it's journey takes place after the burn. This is known as dark fall and is the reason meteorites are cool by the time they land on the earth's surface. Typically that landing spot is hundreds of miles from where you saw the entry burn, depending on the angle the rock entered the atmosphere.
IMAUDIGGER
Silver Member
- Mar 16, 2016
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This is an interesting website to spend some time on..once you find a fireball sighting of interest, you can look at a map showing the trajectory and calculated impact (based on multiple sightings from different locations). Kind of a neat project.
https://fireball.amsmeteors.org
If you see something chances are other people did.. possibly hundreds of miles away.
https://fireball.amsmeteors.org
If you see something chances are other people did.. possibly hundreds of miles away.
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Jason in Enid
Gold Member
- Oct 10, 2009
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Thats a cool website.
Red-Coat
Gold Member
Thereās no way to know for sure, but most meteor trails you see in the sky are from objects that arenāt large enough to reach the ground in recoverable pieces. It depends on the meteorite type but, broadly speaking, a moderately robust incoming asteroidal rock needs to be about the size of a basketball at the time it hits the atmosphere for anything to be recoverable. The vast majority of meteors we see are produced by friable cometary debris which readily disintegrates. If you see a bright flash during a trail, itās normally a sign that the object has shock-detonated and/or begun to disintegrate into multiple pieces, which further reduces the possibility of meteorites that could be recovered (as well as widening the potential area where larger pieces might fall).
Incidentally, meteorites do not āburn up in the atmosphere due to frictionā as is commonly said. Friction plays only a very minor part in heating. Meteors enter our atmosphere at such a high velocity that they compress the atmospheric gases in front of them, the gases superheat as a result of the compression, and this heat transfers to the meteor by conduction. The outer portions of the meteor then slough off by a process called āablationā and that, together with a column of superheated ionised gases is what creates the trail.
Most meteor streaks occur in the thermosphere region of the atmosphere around 50-75 miles up, but slow, bright meteor streaks will penetrate further. Usually around 9-12 miles up the meteor will have decelerated to the extent that any ablation processes cease and the trail is no longer bright, although there may still be a smoke or debris trail. The meteor will have already decelerated to a speed somewhere in the region of 4,500-9,000 miles an hour, so it can travel a very long way in a matter of seconds. From that point onwards they further decelerate rapidly to terminal velocity, usually somewhere between 200-400 miles an hour. How much further they travel after the streak is no longer visible will depend on how high up they are when the ablation has ceased, their velocity and the incoming angle/subsequent trajectory.
Incidentally, meteorites do not āburn up in the atmosphere due to frictionā as is commonly said. Friction plays only a very minor part in heating. Meteors enter our atmosphere at such a high velocity that they compress the atmospheric gases in front of them, the gases superheat as a result of the compression, and this heat transfers to the meteor by conduction. The outer portions of the meteor then slough off by a process called āablationā and that, together with a column of superheated ionised gases is what creates the trail.
Most meteor streaks occur in the thermosphere region of the atmosphere around 50-75 miles up, but slow, bright meteor streaks will penetrate further. Usually around 9-12 miles up the meteor will have decelerated to the extent that any ablation processes cease and the trail is no longer bright, although there may still be a smoke or debris trail. The meteor will have already decelerated to a speed somewhere in the region of 4,500-9,000 miles an hour, so it can travel a very long way in a matter of seconds. From that point onwards they further decelerate rapidly to terminal velocity, usually somewhere between 200-400 miles an hour. How much further they travel after the streak is no longer visible will depend on how high up they are when the ablation has ceased, their velocity and the incoming angle/subsequent trajectory.
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Red-Coat
Gold Member
My wife took these pictures during the Quadrantid meteor shower in January 2013 over Rockland Lake, NJ. This is debris from the extinct comet that became the minor planet ā2003 EH1ā in the last 500 years or so.
As the meteors decelerated and went into ādark flightā there was just a smoke and debris trail behind them but, as you can see, they were disintegrating to the extent that not much more than small fragments and dust was going to get to the ground.
As the meteors decelerated and went into ādark flightā there was just a smoke and debris trail behind them but, as you can see, they were disintegrating to the extent that not much more than small fragments and dust was going to get to the ground.
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Red-Coat
Gold Member
As I said, that BLM document was an Instruction Memorandum (ie policy guidance) and I did specifically say that it was NOT legislation. This was the first time that BLM went into print in a (largely failed) attempt to clarify the position as they saw it. Although it has expired on paper, the problem with these kinds of guidance documents is that they often continue to be used as guidance in some areas in the absence of anything more definitive.
Most state laws assert that a meteorite find belongs to the landowner of the land upon which the meteorite was found. Many state courts have interpreted their laws as granting the state sole title to any meteorite recovered on state-owned lands. Laws regarding recovery of meteorites on federally owned public lands is āunsettledā but the federal government has historically asserted title to all LARGE meteorites (without a proper definition of ālargeā) found on federal land, because:
- the meteorite is the property of the federal government (as the landowner)
- meteorites found on public lands are subject to the 1906 Antiquities Act (16 U.S.C. 432)
- a meteorite does not qualify as a āvaluable mineralā as defined under the 1872 Mining Law, and thus it is not subject to mineral claim rights that could otherwise be filed by the discoverer.
The law is ambiguous regarding ownership of meteorites found on public lands that are managed by the Bureau of Land Management (I did not say that BLM owned such lands). Some BLM offices consider meteorites to be artifacts, and thus regard them as government property, but the vast majority of BLM offices do not.
In the case of SMALL meteorites (without a proper definition of āsmallā), ownership of those found on federal land is not covered in the Code of Federal Regulations. These kinds of ambiguity are the reasons why BLM attempted to clarify their own position in their 2012 Instruction memorandum. BLM has also argued in the past that they have the same legal standing as a private landowner and that, under the 1906 Antiquities Act, all meteorites found on BLM land belong to the Smithsonian Institution.
Itās a mess. Youāre always in a more secure (or at least less contentious) position if you hunt on privately-owned land which is either yours or for which you have landowner permission.
If you can provide links to any documentation that further clarifies todayās position it would be appreciated.
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This is a common misunderstanding about meteorites. The law is not ambiguous. Meteorites of any size belong to the entity that owns the land. If it falls on your property it's yours. Lots of State law, common law as well as court decisions over many years make this the same in every state.
There is no law or case stating that "all meteorites found on BLM land belong to the Smithsonian".
There is nothing in the Antiquities Act, federal law or a court case that determine "meteorites found on public lands are subject to the 1906 Antiquities Act (16 U.S.C. 432)" That's an internet myth.
The Willamette Meteorite case is a good starting point for understanding this basic premise of these laws and it's usually one of the cases relied on by other State court opinions. The Willamette meteorite was "discovered" in November 1902 and the Oregon State Supreme Court settled the ownership of meteorites issue by July 1905. It didn't take them long because it was a no-brainer under the law. Lot's of earlier and much more recent cases stating the same thing. Here's one from the Iowa Supreme Court in 1892.
As far as meteorites found on public land there is no federal law nor any federal case law that even approaches the subject of meteorite ownership. None - there has never been a case where such a determination was needed. The federal laws on rock and mineral ownership are extremely well developed and all federal courts have settled cases regarding rock and mineral ownership. This was true long before meteorites were even known to exist.
The courts and federal land management agencies have always treated meteorites just as they do any other rock or mineral. Just like other rocks found by the casual public land user you may collect up to 10 pounds per year for your own use. As a casual user you can't sell or trade what you found whether it's a pretty rock, some dirt or a meteorite. If you want to specifically collect meteorites from the public lands and sell or trade them you will have to obtain a permit. Just like any other common stone, soil or mineral found on the public lands you can't just take the people's public property for profit without paying for the privilege.
You are right. "A meteorite does not qualify as a āvaluable mineralā. (emphasis mine)
IF a meteorite is large enough and it's minerals are valuable a citizen has a right make a mining claim based on the mineral content. You can not make a mining claim for a meteorite itself, you can only make the mining claim based on the mineral value left in the meteorite. Then you can mine the mineral content and patent the land. Very well settled law.
I think that where these misunderstandings come from is partially due to the fact that people see a meteorite as more than just part of the rock that makes up the physical mass of the earth. In the law once that meteorite strikes the ground and stops moving it's just another rock on someone's property. And really, other than the imagination of those who seek meteorites, is there any difference from the rest of the rock and soil we stand on? The law doesn't see any difference no matter what our current level of interest might be.
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Red-Coat
Gold Member
Iām unconvinced itās as cut and dried as you say. In both of the judgements you referenced the meteorite concerned was on private land, about which we are agreed. The meteorite belongs to the landowner. Although those cases are oft-cited they were, as you said, āno-brainersā but not necessarily catch-all precedents when the land is not in private ownership.
For the Iowa aerolite (Goddard v Winchell), the issue was that the meteorite fell on privately-owned land belonging to Goddard, but he had leased it for the year 1890 to James Eleckson for grazing. The meteorite fell during the leasing period and, immediately after the fall, Eleckson hired someone to dig it out and then sold it to H.V. Winchell. The judgement was about Goddardās rights as the landowner versus Elecksonās right to have claimed it (and sold it to Winchell) because he had a lease on the land. Quite rightly, the court found against Winchell.
For the Willamette meteorite (Oregon Iron Company v Hughes), the illegitimate claim of ownership was even more blatant. The meteorite had fallen (on an unknown date) on land privately owned by the Oregon Iron and Steel Company. The settler Ellis Hughes recognised the possible value/importance of it, secretly hauled it three quarters of a mile onto his own land and then claimed it was his. Again, quite rightly, the court found against Hughes.
No matter whether we agree or not. It's an interesting discussion and I would suspect we haven't seen the last of situations requiring a court to decide.
For the Iowa aerolite (Goddard v Winchell), the issue was that the meteorite fell on privately-owned land belonging to Goddard, but he had leased it for the year 1890 to James Eleckson for grazing. The meteorite fell during the leasing period and, immediately after the fall, Eleckson hired someone to dig it out and then sold it to H.V. Winchell. The judgement was about Goddardās rights as the landowner versus Elecksonās right to have claimed it (and sold it to Winchell) because he had a lease on the land. Quite rightly, the court found against Winchell.
For the Willamette meteorite (Oregon Iron Company v Hughes), the illegitimate claim of ownership was even more blatant. The meteorite had fallen (on an unknown date) on land privately owned by the Oregon Iron and Steel Company. The settler Ellis Hughes recognised the possible value/importance of it, secretly hauled it three quarters of a mile onto his own land and then claimed it was his. Again, quite rightly, the court found against Hughes.
No matter whether we agree or not. It's an interesting discussion and I would suspect we haven't seen the last of situations requiring a court to decide.
Oh darn! I was hoping you would bring up the Old Woman Meteorite myth.
It's the key to understanding the supposed lack of surety about meteorite ownership on federal lands. Of course the Barringer patents prove otherwise as Nininger found out to his detriment.
There will always be cases where people don't understand the law and a court has to instruct them. It's just that meteorite cases are pretty few and far between.
The fact there are none in the Federal realm is due to the fact there is no controversy. Federal courts don't hear disputes about meteorite ownership because it's outside their jurisdiction (Article III Section 2 U.S. Constitution). The law is clear and well established.
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