What is with this "Cleaning" thing????

[Silver Surfer]

What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Been wondering about this for awhile, and it just doesnt make any sense to me at all.... I can see a coin degrading in value because some nut took a wire brush to it, but why "any" cleaning??
To me it is dumb, but maybe you coin experts can enlighten me. The way I see it (and I could be wrong of course), it would be tantamount to someone saying "That Model T you got for sale is worth very little, after all, you washed it"... A coin in good condition, bar soil and tarnish, is just as old and rare as it is if it has been cleaned, in my book...
Thoughts?
The reason I ask, is that although I dont wash my coins (except dug coins) is due to this "rule", but I have several late 1800's Morgan dollars that are really shiny and clean. Very small scratches, but little wear, and the reeded edges are perfect. I have others from the same year that are very dark and pattina'd, so I have to wonder if they have been cleaned...

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

All that comes from coin dealers who 99.999% of what they deal with is non dug coins, and 99.9% of the time when a coin has been cleaned it decreases the value, so it's better for them to just preach the general rule of "Don't clean coins!" Dug coins on the other hand is a completely different story and every coin is different, and possible cleaning should be looked at on a case by case difference. Cleaning a dug find has never lost me money, in fact it's made me ... well lets just say it's more than hundreds. Some things I clean dry, some I use peroxide, some need something much more aggressive, it all depends on the particular find.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Whats both annoying and confusing is the same people telling novices to never clean a coin they are doctoring and using various harder to detect methods of cleaning.
Ill put up a couple of pictures to show why a coin should not be cleaned.

Both about the same age,50 years between them.One with superb toning(patina)as it should be and one ..well..cleaned.Its still a nice coin but obviously cleaned,the poorer for it.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Ill put up a couple of pictures to show why a coin should not be cleaned.

...and say how it was cleaned too. A lot of times it's not the choice to clean that ruins it, it's the method.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Ill put up a couple of pictures to show why a coin should not be cleaned.

...and say how it was cleaned too. A lot of times it's not the choice to clean that ruins it, it's the method.

I dont know how it was cleaned , only that it was.Im from the same school as your goodself IP , id clean a dug coin but hesitate with anything else , it wouldnt always stop me buying a cleaned coin if its otherwise sound , its always a much much cheaper pricetag.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Ill put up a couple of pictures to show why a coin should not be cleaned.

...and say how it was cleaned too. A lot of times it's not the choice to clean that ruins it, it's the method.

I dont know how it was cleaned , only that it was.Im from the same school as your goodself IP , id clean a dug coin but hesitate with anything else , it wouldnt always stop me buying a cleaned coin if its otherwise sound , its always a much much cheaper pricetag.

I'm not sure about where you hunt, but our dug silver is much closer to the condition of the Queen Anne. I don't think anyone would clean that George III, and don't think that's really what we're talking about here. If it is, it's just a small part.... the part about the coins dealers point of view.


PS... I have only ever had to clean 3 dug old silver coins. Two had spots of green crud, and the other a grey film. All three were much better when I was finished.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Ill put up a couple of pictures to show why a coin should not be cleaned.

...and say how it was cleaned too. A lot of times it's not the choice to clean that ruins it, it's the method.

I dont know how it was cleaned , only that it was.Im from the same school as your goodself IP , id clean a dug coin but hesitate with anything else , it wouldnt always stop me buying a cleaned coin if its otherwise sound , its always a much much cheaper pricetag.

I'm not sure about where you hunt, but our dug silver is much closer to the condition of the Queen Anne.

Neither were dug Sir , both purchased from private collections in Ireland and Scotland.I have found some stunning silver pieces hunting in the UK in the past,its odd that i find silver coins to not so much tone in the ground as it might above ground , ive seen coins from the 20's dug that look like they were minted last week.
Im not a fan of rainbow toning but the look of that charles coin is how id expect a cabinet kept coin to look.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?



Some coins you just have to clean

SS

 

[shaun7]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Some coins you just have to clean

SS

Nice job

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Ill put up a couple of pictures to show why a coin should not be cleaned.

...and say how it was cleaned too. A lot of times it's not the choice to clean that ruins it, it's the method.

I dont know how it was cleaned , only that it was.Im from the same school as your goodself IP , id clean a dug coin but hesitate with anything else , it wouldnt always stop me buying a cleaned coin if its otherwise sound , its always a much much cheaper pricetag.

I fully agree about the Patina thing, as the Columbus coin in my avatar shows... Patina brings out the "Character" and details of the engraving so beautifully... BUT... If you have a coin that say, shows little to no signs of wear, but has heavy patina or say scum, etc., built up on it, will it grade as a "near proof" state? Not from what I have seen... But take that same coin, and have it "professionally" cleaned by a grading company and pay their ridiculous fee, and it will then fetch top dollar as a near proof coin... I see it as a BIG racket for the most part... I have several such coins, that I bought years back, and vacuum packed them. I have no idea if they have been cleaned, but suspect they have, as how can a non-sealed coin be very proof like with very few scratches (very light wear) and NOT have patina if it hasnt been cleaned? Silver tarnishes very quickly if not sealed in a vacuum environment. I will try to post some pictures of these coins tomorrow. I will have to take them out of the safe and vacuum seals first... Then you "Pro's" (and I dont mean that in a bad way) can tell me what you think of them as far as grade... The reeding tells the story to me. If the coin is shiny and has a lot of wear, it not only looks like hell, but also doesnt fit, therefore degrading the coin by cleaning it.. IF every little detail is perfect, and the reeded edge is as good as a modern coin, then why shouldnt it be nice and silver??
Not like I am going to change the "industry" with my opinion, but that is my opinion..

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Some coins you just have to clean

SS

Man oh man SS... You guys with your Saxons and such make the hairs on my neck stand up!!! I cannot even imagine what it must be like to dig something up that was made in the 16th century or older...
I did, however, find something that supposidly has been on the ocean floor for millions of years... And my first one (this one), is about as nice as they come... Even the serrated edge is present... It gives me that same feeling I stated above each time I hold it in my hand.. Funny thing is, it was sitting vertically, leaning up against a rock, and if the seaweed had not swayed with the current, I would have gone right past it...

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Some coins you just have to clean

SS

Man oh man SS... You guys with your Saxons and such make the hairs on my neck stand up!!! I cannot even imagine what it must be like to dig something up that was made in the 16th century or older...
I did, however, find something that supposidly has been on the ocean floor for millions of years... And my first one (this one), is about as nice as they come... Even the serrated edge is present... It gives me that same feeling I stated above each time I hold it in my hand.. Funny thing is, it was sitting vertically, leaning up against a rock, and if the seaweed had not swayed with the current, I would have gone right past it...

Yep... that's a peach of a find

SS

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Here are a couple examples of the coins I spoke of... Even though I have had the "nice" ones vacuum packed for a long time, I just dont know how they could have stayed this "clean" over a century, unless they were cleaned at one time.. They were in this state when I bought them, and although they have a few wear scratches on them, they are very bright and no patina at all... The reeded edges on most of the are almost like a new coin, so I know they havent been circulated much at all.. But circulation or not, an unsealed coin of silver will tarnish and color just from the air... Sorry for the slightly blurry reed edge pic, my eyes are getting to the point where I cant tell if the damn camera is focused or not..The pic's do a good job of showing the "not visible to the eye" scratches, due to the angle and flash, but do not do justice to the coins.. They are really beautiful and and all details are crisp..
BTW, I placed about 20 Morgans and one Peace dollar on epay today..

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Yep, not only cleaned, cleaned in the worst way possible with the exception of frying it with electrolysis for a couple days.

 

[GL]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

LOL I Tarnex everything I get outta my yard. My kid finds coins in the dirt here all the time and wants them shiny. My avatar is a Morgan she dug in the sideyard while I was tilling a garden. It was black as night when she found it and she didn't believe me when I told her it was a silver dollar. So far she's found the dollar, several Mercury dimes, a few Buffalo nickles and a really neat V nickle. I found a very old quarter but I didn't clean it.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

LOL I Tarnex everything I get outta my yard. My kid finds coins in the dirt here all the time and wants them shiny. My avatar is a Morgan she dug in the sideyard while I was tilling a garden. It was black as night when she found it and she didn't believe me when I told her it was a silver dollar. So far she's found the dollar, several Mercury dimes, a few Buffalo nickles and a really neat V nickle. I found a very old quarter but I didn't clean it.

I've used Tarn-x and it's not awaywhere as bad because it doesn't leave them very deep nasty scratches.

 

[l.cutler]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

As Iron patch said, those Morgans are VERY harshly cleaned. It is not so much never clean a coin, but if you don't know the right way then they are better left alone. They can always be cleaned properly later, but can never be "unccleaned".

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Well, like I said, I figured they had been cleaned when I bought them just because of how "shiny" they were... Just for the record though, you cant see any but the deeper nicks even with a light mag lens... I positioned them just right (angle), and the flash strobe, to get that. They actually lose a lot of the die details in my pic's...
So is the "tell tail" cleaning because there are light scratches and hardly any detail wear? I guess it seems funny to me that anything but a non-circulated or proof coin WOULDNT have any scratches after more than 100 yrs of going from place to place, pocket to pocket..
They are, after all, still over 100 yrs old and beautiful.... But then again, I am not some PCGS snob either.. LOL..

 

[l.cutler]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Circulation scratches are random and scattered. When the whole surface is covered with fine scratches it was wire brushed or cleaned with steel wool or the like.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Quite a strange thing to say with the pcgs "snob" thing , i dont think it makes a person overly fussy because they prefer an uncleaned coin.
Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.Im trying to understand why it would seem odd for an Uncirculated coin to not show signs of circulation,guess its just too early for me yet.