What is this man trying to tell us?

[White Heart]

"I appreciate the connection you are attempting to make with the "hand signs", just fail to see how you can distinguish the difference between a "hand sign" and a man checking his watch ...from this "fragment" of a photograph.


Ditlihi,
On the original, with a lens or on a 136mb tiff I can see it better. It is very nearly what I have imitated ( no overhead sun though). The bright curve on the jacket between the hands is sunlight , I believe. If it is a rosary or watch checking hand position , then it is. Rosary beads and pocket watches are above my pay grade.
There are many blurred hands and faces in the picture. One horse seems only to have 3 legs because it must have been in motion for the entire exposure.

I, just today, ordered a book supposedly written in 1859 that describes hand signs. I want to know what that, seemingly studied(to me), pose means. He does seem to be trying to show the top of his hand to the camera without lowering his arm to his side, and to be sure we sees, he points. IMHO


At the least "our soon to be hanged man" has brought some life back into this seemingly moribund forum.

Thank you for posting.
WH

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Maverick1]

"I appreciate the connection you are attempting to make with the "hand signs", just fail to see how you can distinguish the difference between a "hand sign" and a man checking his watch ...from this "fragment" of a photograph.


Ditlihi,
On the original, with a lens or on a 136mb tiff I can see it better. It is very nearly what I have imitated ( no overhead sun though). The bright curve on the jacket between the hands is sunlight , I believe. If it is a rosary or watch checking hand position , then it is. Rosary beads and pocket watches are above my pay grade.
There are many blurred hands and faces in the picture. One horse seems only to have 3 legs because it must have been in motion for the entire exposure.

I, just today, ordered a book supposedly written in 1859 that describes hand signs. I want to know what that, seemingly studied(to me), pose means. He does seem to be trying to show the top of his hand to the camera without lowering his arm to his side, and to be sure we sees, he points. IMHO


At the least "our soon to be hanged man" has brought some life back into this seemingly moribund forum.

Thank you for posting.
WH

He was found NOT GUILTY. He's among us again. Alive and kicking on this thread. T.Y. for a little LOL.
We needed that after hangin' trial

morituri te salutant

 

[L.C. BAKER]

I have decided to stop envying you, Sir. The true word is "managia" and Kace is right about origin. Kudos Kace (IMVHO)

Cool, it was making me feel weird. sei un asino intelligente o una persona intelligente? Non riesco a capirlo!

L.C.

 

[Maverick1]

Ha, sto verro, ma carro. Capisci? Giustamente?

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Ha, sto verro, ma carro. Capisci? Giustamente?

Assolutamente amico mio, sono in missione e non ho tempo per le sciocchezze. Mio padre sta morendo e io sto esaurendo i miei giorni. Capisci?L.C.

 

[Maverick1]

Assolutamente amico mio, sono in missione e non ho tempo per le sciocchezze. Mio padre sta morendo e io sto esaurendo i miei giorni. Capisci?L.C.

Mi dispiaci di sentirlo. Ciao e auguri

 

[White Heart]

I'm going with Rosary Beads...Possibly a pocket/bracelet type....It looks like he's standing in front of a Donkey or Horse and that photo was quickly taken which you could do with glass. Check out the ears behind his head and the bridle strap on his right and the hoof to the mans left in the photo. It also looks like reins laying over his left shoe in the photo.

It could be he's leading the hearse for the procession.

I'd also venture a guess the man is Italian or Sicilian.

Do you have the rest of the photo White Heart?

Kace

I do have the photo Kace , but I can't show the whole thing at this time.
I can say that there are a few boys out front with lanterns who did not hold still. Next, beside our Man is the priest, reading a book, he held still. Next to the Priest, standing alongside the road and not participating in the procession is an old man with a long white beard. He is wearing a cross draw pistol low off his left hip. The old man is staring straight into the camera. He held very still. I suspect he paid for the photo, as it remained in his family until it was given to me by his grandson.
About 6 or 8 feet behind are the mule and a horse, driven by a man, with elbow length white gloves, standing atop the buckboard with the casket. Behind the wagon are about 40 men in double file and at the end of the line, the women. Ten of them.
The dead man was a knights templar according to the symbols on his tombstone. Our man could be the KT head stone next to the first. There are a couple Woodmen of the World in the same group. The Old Man didn't get a headstone.
The Old man is the subject of my research. He was born once, married two times for his whole life and died twice.

I will get the story out,
WH

 

[Maverick1]

Absolutely love the suspense. Great job W.H., barely can wait. Died Twice? Wow, and he came close to a third time? lol, on this forum?

Who can sleep tonight? (feel guilty already)

 

[mercinarie]

Checking the time ⌚

 

[Ditlihi]

That is the thing about signs and signals that make them covert. I believe it would be very hard to distinguish unless you were aware of the possibility. That takes about 99% of the general public out of it. Then the ones that are left are still trying to decide I think. I believe it requires more background in some cases to determine the difference. If you try too hard then it becomes cloud watching on a unicorn hunt. If there is significant evidence of the individual's background before the picture at least you know they are all in the same boat together, but that still doesn't mean its true unless it leads to more. Not easy to do without some study and info. Just MHO.

Indeed. And over 150 years later, after decades of " Investigation and Exposés " by others like yourself, we are still waiting for that " More ".

If you look for unicorns in clouds, you will surely find them.

I am far from an authority on the subject of K.G.C. ritual and gestures. Like most i have to take what has been written by others about the subject as the truth. I can only make an educated logical guess at what the truth is, based on what I have been educated by.
....

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/kgc/367064-k-g-c-signals-2.html#post3583747


Perhaps one should devote an equal amount of time to investigating the veracity of what has been written by others, so one doesn't have to "guess" at what the Truth is.... before attempting to confirm their "guessed-ucation" in the field.

Tumblebugs care little about quality control.

 

[Maverick1]

L.C., sorry to hear about your dad, man. I had no idea. Heart goes to you & papa. Hoping for full recovery. Blessings.

 

[RKW]

The year is 1909.
He is in a funeral procession.
Anyone know what he is saying with his hands?View attachment 1554552
Thank you.
WH

He is not trying to "say" anything. It just happens to be where is hands were when the picture was taken.

 

[Robot]

"More"...More of What?...I would not know!

The year is 1909.
He is in a funeral procession.
Anyone know what he is saying with his hands?View attachment 1554552
Thank you.
WH

[h=1]What does this sign mean (index finger pointing at the palm of your other hand)[/h]
[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

5
2
​

[/TD]
[TD]We've noticed our 15 month-old son signing when he wants something to eat. We recently changed day care providers so I can't just go back and ask them what it means when my son does this. It happens around snack times/food times but also (seemingly) randomly throughout the day.
His right hand is in front of him with his palm facing to the left and he uses the index finger of his left hand to point at the right hand palm. Sometimes the hands are reversed.
There are many different dialects of sign language (infant, toddler, ASL, BSL, etc.) and I haven't found which one this sign belongs to or what it means.
In our house it's been equated somewhat with "more please" but we'd like to know the "real" meaning and potentially continue with his learning at home.

baby-sign language toddler

asked 12 Jun '10, 14:56

Rob Allen
876●3●8●17
accept rate: 12%

1​

As far as I know, please is a closed hand moving up and down along the center of your chest. "More" uses two hands though.

(13 Jun '10, 02:16)Scott ♦♦​

1​

In ASL sorry is a closed hand circling at the chest and please is an open hand with the same motion. More is two hands, fingers and thumbs together (like a duck shadow puppet), being bumped together.

(13 Jun '10, 02:19)mkcoehoorn​

​

@mkcoehoorn: then our daughter is actually signing "More" correctly

(13 Jun '10, 17:29)Scott ♦♦​

​

+1 great question and answers, (just a quick question, why is it not possible to ask the previous carer? I think that you have a right to ask them?? )

(15 Jun '10, 08:47)Emi


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

---

5 Answers:
oldestnewestmost voted

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

6
​

[/TD]
[TD]It seems to be a generally accepted alternative sign for "more."
I have 2 pieces internet-related evidence for this:
1) Here is a blog post, with a picture of the poster's son making the sign you describe, and the picture is labeled as the "more" sign: Daily Jake: 2008-12-14
2) Here is a link to a discussion board post where the poster says she uses the sign you describe for "more" b/c the real ASL sign is easily confused with clapping: IndieMOM Discussion Board Post

link
answered 12 Jun '10, 22:43

JBunky
700●2●9●13
accept rate: 11%

2​

+1 I would agree it is "more". We went to a course on baby sign and it is very similar what we were taught there and is in the book were were given at the course. The course used three fingers but I simiplied it to one finger.

(13 Jun '10, 07:24)K D​

​

The "Daily Jake" blog is not very good evidence for the signing of "more." They either taught "more" wrong to him or he is approximating the sign strangely. Noone I know who uses baby sign or ASL signs "more" without using a bouncing motion of their fingers from both hands together.

(23 Jun '10, 05:02)Sabrina


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

5
​

[/TD]
[TD]The sign he is making is similar to "again" where "officially" you use 4 fingers point into the other hand. We taught "again" to our children and they sign it using only one finger the same way as your son. (one finger is easier than 4). You can use either hand for this sign and it means the same.
We mostly use it for playing games. "Do you want to jump again?" And they would sign "again"
We noticed that sometimes our son would use "more" and "again" interchangeably. So at meal times he would sometimes sign "again" intstead of "more." And when we were playing he would sometimes sign "more."

link
answered 14 Jun '10, 05:00

Sabrina
4.6k●2●26●41
accept rate: 21%

1​

Here is a picture of the sign "again": • ASL • American Sign Language Look under "A" for "again."

(14 Jun '10, 05:07)Sabrina


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

2
​

[/TD]
[TD]I can't tell you what the real meaning is but our toddler does the same thing. We've decided it's his version of "want" (as he does it for more than food) based off infant sign language more gesture.

link
answered 12 Jun '10, 19:20

Kiesa ♦
5.3k●2●23●35
accept rate: 26%

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

2
​

[/TD]
[TD]Tapping your fingertips together like that is 'more'. One finger into the palm of the other hand is 'again'. Both VERY useful to know!

link
answered 20 Jun '10, 05:04

bluedeer
41●1
accept rate: 0%

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

0
​

[/TD]
[TD]My daughter is 22 months and talking too but does this sign and says "more" while she does it. No idea where she learned it and I do know it is not the correct way of signing "more."


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Kace]

I do have the photo Kace , but I can't show the whole thing at this time.
I can say that there are a few boys out front with lanterns who did not hold still. Next, beside our Man is the priest, reading a book, he held still. Next to the Priest, standing alongside the road and not participating in the procession is an old man with a long white beard. He is wearing a cross draw pistol low off his left hip. The old man is staring straight into the camera. He held very still. I suspect he paid for the photo, as it remained in his family until it was given to me by his grandson.
About 6 or 8 feet behind are the mule and a horse, driven by a man, with elbow length white gloves, standing atop the buckboard with the casket. Behind the wagon are about 40 men in double file and at the end of the line, the women. Ten of them.
The dead man was a knights templar according to the symbols on his tombstone. Our man could be the KT head stone next to the first. There are a couple Woodmen of the World in the same group. The Old Man didn't get a headstone.
The Old man is the subject of my research. He was born once, married two times for his whole life and died twice.

I will get the story out,
WH

Thanks for describing the photo White Heart.

I might be able to help on a couple things.

The boys in front of the procession that you said did not hold still.... they would of been Alter Boys each swinging a Thurible which would of had burning charcoal/incense in them. They would not of let the Thurible stop swinging. Also those would not of been Lanterns on a July Day. Formal Christian burials do not take place at night.

The driver of the carriage would of worn White Gloves....sometimes, even now pall bearers and hearse drivers wear White Gloves...they are all transporting the deceased.

The deceased could of had a High Mass or Mass of Christian Burial and Not a Seperate Rosary prayed.

The Priest would of been reading prayers or Praying the Rosary as the casket passed...walked up to the front of the procession to the graveyard for burial still praying or saying the Rosary.

The men behind the hearse/wagon could of been pall bearers, family and Knights of Columbus brothers with women from the family, women from the Church or Daughters of Isabella following.

It was common as a horse drawn hearse or wagon carrying a casket for people walking to stop walking or going about their business as the procession passed as a sign of respect. In fact it was very uncommon and disrespectful Not to stop what you were doing. Today people pull their vehicles over and stop when a funeral procession is approaching as a sign of respect. You can see in your picture there is a building behind the man... Anyone walking the streets would of stopped.

The photo was probably taken leaving the Church which usually were close to or in close proximity to businesses. Especially in ethnic settlements, like Italian. Usually the cemetery was not far away.

July...1909...Very possible the man was not embalmed... instead of having a separate Rosary prayed the night before, the Rosary could of been prayed enroute to and at the gravesite after Mass at the Church.

It sounds like you know the family...and saw Woodmen of the World monuments... Was this burial in a Catholic Cemetery or in a separate area of a cemetery with consecrated grounds?

I do have another couple of questions though... How do you know the other man was wearing a CROSS DRAW Pistol? You said It was low on his left hip...that's pretty dangerous to be wearing one Cross Draw Pistol.

The other Question is...Knights Templar was disbanded in 1312 by Pope Clement V....some were given absolution... most killed for atrocities against the Church...but there were other orders that followed....I'd look at those symbols again to see which is on the monument... Post a pic of the monument showing those symbols without the mans name... lots of knowledgeable people here who know symbols. Did the guys grandson say he was Knights Templar also or is there a symbol on the tombstone that makes you think KT?

I realize I'm making an educated guess on this guy being Italian or Sicilian... You said Priest, so I'm going Catholic too, but from the picture shown and description given....to me that's what it all points to.

Hope this helps and please do tell the rest of this story.

Kace

 

[Kace]

I have decided to stop envying you, Sir. The true word is "managia" and Kace is right about origin. Kudos Kace (IMVHO)

managia = mannaggia

Grazie amico mio! Sei divertente!!

Kace

 

[Ditlihi]

[h=1]What does this sign mean (index finger pointing at the palm of your other hand)[/h]
[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

5
2
​

[/TD]
[TD]We've noticed our 15 month-old son signing when he wants something to eat. We recently changed day care providers so I can't just go back and ask them what it means when my son does this. It happens around snack times/food times but also (seemingly) randomly throughout the day.
His right hand is in front of him with his palm facing to the left and he uses the index finger of his left hand to point at the right hand palm. Sometimes the hands are reversed.
There are many different dialects of sign language (infant, toddler, ASL, BSL, etc.) and I haven't found which one this sign belongs to or what it means.
In our house it's been equated somewhat with "more please" but we'd like to know the "real" meaning and potentially continue with his learning at home.

baby-sign language toddler

asked 12 Jun '10, 14:56

Rob Allen
876●3●8●17
accept rate: 12%

1​

As far as I know, please is a closed hand moving up and down along the center of your chest. "More" uses two hands though.

(13 Jun '10, 02:16)Scott ♦♦​

1​

In ASL sorry is a closed hand circling at the chest and please is an open hand with the same motion. More is two hands, fingers and thumbs together (like a duck shadow puppet), being bumped together.

(13 Jun '10, 02:19)mkcoehoorn​

​

@mkcoehoorn: then our daughter is actually signing "More" correctly

(13 Jun '10, 17:29)Scott ♦♦​

​

+1 great question and answers, (just a quick question, why is it not possible to ask the previous carer? I think that you have a right to ask them?? )

(15 Jun '10, 08:47)Emi


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

---

5 Answers:
oldestnewestmost voted

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

6
​

[/TD]
[TD]It seems to be a generally accepted alternative sign for "more."
I have 2 pieces internet-related evidence for this:
1) Here is a blog post, with a picture of the poster's son making the sign you describe, and the picture is labeled as the "more" sign: Daily Jake: 2008-12-14
2) Here is a link to a discussion board post where the poster says she uses the sign you describe for "more" b/c the real ASL sign is easily confused with clapping: IndieMOM Discussion Board Post

link
answered 12 Jun '10, 22:43

JBunky
700●2●9●13
accept rate: 11%

2​

+1 I would agree it is "more". We went to a course on baby sign and it is very similar what we were taught there and is in the book were were given at the course. The course used three fingers but I simiplied it to one finger.

(13 Jun '10, 07:24)K D​

​

The "Daily Jake" blog is not very good evidence for the signing of "more." They either taught "more" wrong to him or he is approximating the sign strangely. Noone I know who uses baby sign or ASL signs "more" without using a bouncing motion of their fingers from both hands together.

(23 Jun '10, 05:02)Sabrina


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

5
​

[/TD]
[TD]The sign he is making is similar to "again" where "officially" you use 4 fingers point into the other hand. We taught "again" to our children and they sign it using only one finger the same way as your son. (one finger is easier than 4). You can use either hand for this sign and it means the same.
We mostly use it for playing games. "Do you want to jump again?" And they would sign "again"
We noticed that sometimes our son would use "more" and "again" interchangeably. So at meal times he would sometimes sign "again" intstead of "more." And when we were playing he would sometimes sign "more."

link
answered 14 Jun '10, 05:00

Sabrina
4.6k●2●26●41
accept rate: 21%

1​

Here is a picture of the sign "again": • ASL • American Sign Language Look under "A" for "again."

(14 Jun '10, 05:07)Sabrina


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

2
​

[/TD]
[TD]I can't tell you what the real meaning is but our toddler does the same thing. We've decided it's his version of "want" (as he does it for more than food) based off infant sign language more gesture.

link
answered 12 Jun '10, 19:20

Kiesa ♦
5.3k●2●23●35
accept rate: 26%

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

2
​

[/TD]
[TD]Tapping your fingertips together like that is 'more'. One finger into the palm of the other hand is 'again'. Both VERY useful to know!

link
answered 20 Jun '10, 05:04

bluedeer
41●1
accept rate: 0%

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 740"]
[TR]
[TD]

0
​

[/TD]
[TD]My daughter is 22 months and talking too but does this sign and says "more" while she does it. No idea where she learned it and I do know it is not the correct way of signing "more."


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Indeed. And over 150 years later, after decades of " Investigation and Exposés " by others like yourself, we are still waiting for that " More ".

If you look for unicorns in clouds, you will surely find them.






http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/kgc/367064-k-g-c-signals-2.html#post3583747


Perhaps one should devote an equal amount of time to investigating the veracity of what has been written by others, so one doesn't have to "guess" at what the Truth is.... before attempting to confirm their "guessed-ucation" in the field.

Tumblebugs care little about quality control.

That is what I am doing on this site Sir, comparing what you and others say to what I know. I state what I think and wait for the rebuttal from anyone that can prove me wrong, with facts. Do you have any?
How in the heck do you think I have come this far on a REAL trail? It was not by making crap up I assure you. I read all that is available that does not repeat the same stuff. Good Day!

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Grazie amico mio! Sei divertente!!

Kace

Sei facilmente intrattenuto dalla follia. Forse se hai preso un aprouch più serio potresti avere la possibilità di far parte di una vera ricerca di ciò che è rimasto.

L.C.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Whiteheart, was the person being buried a Judge? Were the pallbearers also judges?

L.C.

 

[Ditlihi]

That is what I am doing on this site Sir, comparing what you and others say to what I know. I state what I think and wait for the rebuttal from anyone that can prove me wrong, with facts. Do you have any?
How in the heck do you think I have come this far on a REAL trail? It was not by making crap up I assure you. I read all that is available that does not repeat the same stuff. Good Day!

But we aren't dealing in facts here, are we? Merely supposition. If you were to ever bring your suppositions to some kind of conclusion to rebut, we might see some progress. Unfortunately your method only leads to more supposition. Leaps of faith. You assume when no one steps up with facts to the contrary, that you must be correct in your supposition. When someone does step up, you discard it as they just don't know what you do, they are just not "educated" the way you are. At the same time having confessed you are basically just guessing yourself and throwing it out there.

It's an endless circle of what ifs. Suppositions don't magically become Facts merely by remaining unopposed. It's up to You to provide the physical evidence that transforms your Suppositions into Facts. As of yet, they remain unproven.

The Hook is there, baited with a disclaimer. So far it hasn't caught anything. Throw some Facts on it and someone may bite.

No offense intended, just some constructive advice well meant.