What do you think it is ?

[VERMONTPACKRAT]

I dug this item last night in a small hay field. Not really sure what it is A clasp of some sort has been suggested.....


VPR

 

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[nuggy]

Still thinking leather, as the prongs are not a suitable attachment for cloth - the reissued patent drawing at bottom appears to show a series of holes to sew the clasp to fabric - a far better way of attaching to cloth. I don't see the three prongs on any of the drawings.
Probably a few variants of this type of clasp were made for different uses. Interesting find anyway Nuggy

 

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[Customx_12]

I'm not really sure why you guys re so anti-rollerskates here. Do you own stock in skateboards or something? It was just a theory and, quite frankly, I absolutely think it has something to do with the clasp. Maybe not with the invention of skates or anything like that but, as mentioned earlier, I can see it being from a rollerskate bag. I don't really understand how you guys can't see the link between the girl wearing rollerskates and this being rollerskate related. Common sense tells you that a rollerskate clasp has something to do with rollerskates.

 

[High Plains Digger]

Was there a sound chip in it? Something like....."You can't roller skate in a buffalo herd. " Why not?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm not really sure why you guys re so anti-rollerskates here. Do you own stock in skateboards or something? It was just a theory and, quite frankly, I absolutely think it has something to do with the clasp. Maybe not with the invention of skates or anything like that but, as mentioned earlier, I can see it being from a rollerskate bag. I don't really understand how you guys can't see the link between the girl wearing rollerskates and this being rollerskate related. Common sense tells you that a rollerskate clasp has something to do with rollerskates.

With all due respect Customx, Im sure it has absolutely nothing to do with roller skates. I was just trying to be nice and it backfired on me. No need to confuse the readers any more. Did you look at the different images on the different fasteners found in my links in reply 17?

Yes its interesting to add that you recognize the skates as the 1876 English patent (I even have my doubts on this)but its just coincidence to be near the 1875 patent clothing fastener. There is no connection. Its NOT a roller skate patent. Its a fastener patent. Here is a pic of a fastener found by Wolverine with exactly the same patent and Z & M inscrption.. Would you think that this is an axe pick patent? Of course not. Tell me what connection this would have to roller skating?

I hope I havent offended you and thank you for participating but I hope I have just proven to you that this fastener has nothing to do with skating.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Still thinking leather, as the prongs are not a suitable attachment for cloth - the reissued patent drawing at bottom appears to show a series of holes to sew the clasp to fabric - a far better way of attaching to cloth. I don't see the three prongs on any of the drawings.
Probably a few variants of this type of clasp were made for different uses. Interesting find anyway Nuggy

You are correct, the drawing does not show the prongs. There are small variations in the fasteners found. The patent is for a particular idea that is incorporated into the item. The picture does not have to be exact and very often is not.. Actually none of the fasteners found have the series of holes.

Im not sure the purpose of the prongs but the overall principal is the same. Im not sure exactly but the item appears to open and close down. Here are 2 found by Dandan. Notice the children design similar to the skater and notice that one has prongs and the other doesnt. Yes there seems to be variations. Maybe one of the variations is to attach leather but we are just guessing. Finding the original patent may remove all doubt IMO but I couldnt find it. Remember this is a reissued patent so it probably needed to be different.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I found a closer variation nuggy lol. Hold on I need to copy crop and paste.

If anybody ever feels the ID is incorrect please speak up because this is how the system works.

I took a different approach and searched all Z & M patents and found a reissued variation to Louis Messer for "clasp for pocketbooks" in 1878 that has the tabs.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=c_...0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=zinn & messer&f=false

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

And heres the original Jun 29 1875 patent by Messer. "Clasp for Pocket-Books" I searched key words "1875 Messer". It wouldnt come up on a date search and theres more than 1 way to skin a cat. Stick a fork in it, this ones done.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=gw...d=0CDMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=1875 messer&f=true





Its been fun but I have been spending wayyyy tooooo much time here atTN. Im sorry to say I may need to stay away from the What Is It forum for a while. Its too addicting.. Im sure you guys and gals can do just fine without me. Look for my items in the For Sale section and one eBay in the future. Im going to be selling off some very interesting antiques and coins in an attempt to raise money due to the economy. Thanks all.

 

[Customx_12]

I'm not really sure why you guys re so anti-rollerskates here. Do you own stock in skateboards or something? It was just a theory and, quite frankly, I absolutely think it has something to do with the clasp. Maybe not with the invention of skates or anything like that but, as mentioned earlier, I can see it being from a rollerskate bag. I don't really understand how you guys can't see the link between the girl wearing rollerskates and this being rollerskate related. Common sense tells you that a rollerskate clasp has something to do with rollerskates.

With all due respect Customx, Im sure it has absolutely nothing to do with roller skates. I was just trying to be nice and it backfired on me. No need to confuse the readers any more. Did you look at the different images on the different fasteners found in my links in reply 17?

Yes its interesting to add that you recognize the skates as the 1876 English patent (I even have my doubts on this)but its just coincidence to be near the 1875 patent clothing fastener. There is no connection. Its NOT a roller skate patent. Its a fastener patent. Here is a pic of a fastener found by Wolverine with exactly the same patent and Z & M inscrption.. Would you think that this is an axe pick patent? Of course not. Tell me what connection this would have to roller skating?

I hope I havent offended you and thank you for participating but I hope I have just proven to you that this fastener has nothing to do with skating.

It's clear that you either did not read my whole post or are picking and choosing particular aspects to address. As I conceded, it may not have anything to do with the rollerskate patent. I have said that a number of times now but you seem to continue to overlook it. However, I do believe that the fastener has something to do with skating. I believe your axe fastener has something to do with camping and being outdoors. I think you're being silly in your statement of being "sure" that it has nothing to do with skating. You have no possible way of knowing that and to write it off as being factually wrong because your opinion differs is pretty stubborn and close-minded. Both of those qualities aren't very helpful when investigating an artifact or item.

You haven't offended me at all, but you really shouldn't make your opinion out to be fact when it really is nothing more than opinion. You have the right to disagree all you want, but that doesn't mean that you're right. I don't much care for you trying to belittle my opinion even more with the "trying to be nice" comment. As for your doubts about the patent date information I provided, I gave you a link and a simple Google search reveals several other sites that assert the year of that patent.

Again, I'm not offended but having a little respect for a differing opinion would be nice. I provided a link to back up my claim but that wasn't sufficient for you. I stated my opinion and you were "sure" I was wrong even though you have no reason to be sure other than disagreeing with me. This isn't a debate nor is it a court of law. I have my thoughts, you have yours. No need to belittle and disrespect differing opinions.

The connection to rollerskating is the fact that she is wearing rollerskates. It's really not hard to see. I'm still not sure why you find this to be so illogical but it seems pretty obvious to me that someone who didn't care for rollerskating probably wouldn't be wearing a rollerskate fastener.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It's clear that you either did not read my whole post or are picking and choosing particular aspects to address. As I conceded, it may not have anything to do with the rollerskate patent. I have said that a number of times now but you seem to continue to overlook it. However, I do believe that the fastener has something to do with skating. I believe your axe fastener has something to do with camping and being outdoors. I think you're being silly in your statement of being "sure" that it has nothing to do with skating. You have no possible way of knowing that and to write it off as being factually wrong because your opinion differs is pretty stubborn and close-minded. Both of those qualities aren't very helpful when investigating an artifact or item.

You haven't offended me at all, but you really shouldn't make your opinion out to be fact when it really is nothing more than opinion. You have the right to disagree all you want, but that doesn't mean that you're right. I don't much care for you trying to belittle my opinion even more with the "trying to be nice" comment. As for your doubts about the patent date information I provided, I gave you a link and a simple Google search reveals several other sites that assert the year of that patent.

Again, I'm not offended but having a little respect for a differing opinion would be nice. I provided a link to back up my claim but that wasn't sufficient for you. I stated my opinion and you were "sure" I was wrong even though you have no reason to be sure other than disagreeing with me. This isn't a debate nor is it a court of law. I have my thoughts, you have yours. No need to belittle and disrespect differing opinions.

The connection to rollerskating is the fact that she is wearing rollerskates. It's really not hard to see. I'm still not sure why you find this to be so illogical but it seems pretty obvious to me that someone who didn't care for rollerskating probably wouldn't be wearing a rollerskate fastener.

Thanks for your opinion. I recognize this type of style with people on antique buttons. Its just a style of people and children running, playing, dancing, skating, etc. My opinion is that this has nothing to do with skating just as the pick axe button has nothing to do with camping but I could be wrong. I cannot prove it wasnt on a skating bag.


As far as the skating patent 1876 date, I am not wrong because I have just proven to you with hours of work that the date is in fact 1875 but my guess you didnt even bother to read my research.

Here is your link you keep referring to. Show me where it says 1875? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_skates

Thanks for your opinion and Im truly sorry if I offended you. Sometimes there is no nice way to disagree. I am certainly not try to belittle you and sorry for my ill attempt to be nice..

Im finished IDing here.

 

[Customx_12]

It's clear that you either did not read my whole post or are picking and choosing particular aspects to address. As I conceded, it may not have anything to do with the rollerskate patent. I have said that a number of times now but you seem to continue to overlook it. However, I do believe that the fastener has something to do with skating. I believe your axe fastener has something to do with camping and being outdoors. I think you're being silly in your statement of being "sure" that it has nothing to do with skating. You have no possible way of knowing that and to write it off as being factually wrong because your opinion differs is pretty stubborn and close-minded. Both of those qualities aren't very helpful when investigating an artifact or item.

You haven't offended me at all, but you really shouldn't make your opinion out to be fact when it really is nothing more than opinion. You have the right to disagree all you want, but that doesn't mean that you're right. I don't much care for you trying to belittle my opinion even more with the "trying to be nice" comment. As for your doubts about the patent date information I provided, I gave you a link and a simple Google search reveals several other sites that assert the year of that patent.

Again, I'm not offended but having a little respect for a differing opinion would be nice. I provided a link to back up my claim but that wasn't sufficient for you. I stated my opinion and you were "sure" I was wrong even though you have no reason to be sure other than disagreeing with me. This isn't a debate nor is it a court of law. I have my thoughts, you have yours. No need to belittle and disrespect differing opinions.

The connection to rollerskating is the fact that she is wearing rollerskates. It's really not hard to see. I'm still not sure why you find this to be so illogical but it seems pretty obvious to me that someone who didn't care for rollerskating probably wouldn't be wearing a rollerskate fastener.

Thanks for your opinion. I recognize this type of style with people on antique buttons. Its just a style of children running, playing, skating, etc. My opinion is that this has nothing to do with skating just as the pick axe button has nothing to do with camping but I could be wrong. I cannot prove it wasnt on a skating bag.


As far as the skating patent 1876 date in your link you keep referring to, I am not wrong because I have just proven to you that the date is in fact 1875 but my guess you didnt even bother to read my research.

Thanks for your opinion and Im truly sorry if I offended you. Sometimes there is no nice way to disagree. I am certainly not try to belittle you and sorry for my ill attempt to be nice..

This is not worth it.

Sigh. It is clear that you aren't reading everything I write. AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED when I BELIEVED it WAS a reference to the skate patent, I said that the 1875 COULD HAVE BEEN the year they filed the skate patent. Again, I have since conceded that it is NOT a skate patent. However, my link to the SKATING patent is correct and you have proven nothing with a different year for the SKATING PATENT. The 1875 you are referring to has to do with the CLASP patent. THAT you have proven. My skate patent year IS NOT incorrect but you're trying to compare it to the fastener year which, of course, is different.

You're trying to say that my year on the skate patent is wrong because you have a different patent year for the clasp. You are comparing apples to oranges (almost literally). You are right on the clasp year. Nobody is disputing that. I am right on the year of the skate patent. You have shown nothing contrary to the year I provided for that (because you don't believe the rollerskates have anything to do with rollerskating. I get that). We're talking different dates here for different patents. Neither is wrong.

There is an obvious miscommunication here and, as you mentioned, it's not worth it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Like I say Customx, I cant prove it wasnt on a skating bag. I could be wrong about that. I just didnt think going in that direction and/or searching skating patents would help with the identification. But maybe it did help because it turned out to be misIDed.. I was wrong about the clothing fastener and that is why I took all these hours to correct it.

Here are a few examples of this antique style of button with people playing, running, dancing etc. I cant remember what this style is called but it has a certain name.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

One last question customx. Did you really recognize that 1876 English skate patent on that tiny pair of skates? Its so tiny an image, I cant tell and that was were I really had my doubts.. How do you know its not the 1863 skate?



Yes its still worth it here at TN. Disagreements and misunderstandings are a common happening in online forums. I am also not the easiest person to get along with because I get passionate about my hobby that often gets me in trouble. Im so concerned about the bottom line (getting it right) that I forget about the feelings of others. I will make an effort to be nicer when I disagree.

The credit goes to you, Customx, SS and nuggy for pointing me in the right direction with the leather prongs.

 

[Customx_12]

One last question customx. Did you really recognize that 1876 English skate patent on that tiny pair of skates? Its so tiny an image, I cant tell and that was were I really had my doubts.. How do you know its not the 1863 skate?




Yes its still worth it here at TN. Disagreements and misunderstandings are a common happening in online forums. I am also not the easiest person to get along with because I get passionate about my hobby that often gets me in trouble. Im so concerned about the bottom line (getting it right) that I forget about the feelings of others. I will make an effort to be nicer when I disagree.

The credit goes to you, Customx, SS and nuggy for pointing me in the right direction with the leather prongs.

I had my doubts about the patent too just because the patent was technically for the wheels and axles. Not enough detail on the skate to see that. But when I researched further, I found that that same year the toe stop was also patented. The way she has her toe pointed like that, I assumed she was using the toe stop. Since the patent date on the button/clasp/whatever it is was around the same time as the toe stop, wheel, and axle patent; I made that connection.

No hard feelings about all this. You've helped me with a couple items in the past and I'm grateful for your expertise. I'm pretty stubborn and strong-willed myself so I'm sure this won't be the last time we hit heads. Oh and I like to brainstorm and just throw ideas out there even if I know little about the topic at hand. When corrected, it helps me conceptualize things and learn more about them in a way that I understand.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yes she looks like she is using toe stops allright. I didnt notice that. I guess its depicting a post 1876 skate. Makes sense. Did you notice the wooden floor?
I havent skated since I was a kid.

The patent is for handbags so Ill concede that its entirely possible to be a skating bag of some sort. Its already solved but if someone could find the bag this was used on would be incredible, but Ive seen incredible IDs made here.

Its always good to throw out ideas. I should never put down someones idea. I think I was convinced it was a clothing clasp and that may have been blocking my mind..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

No hard feelings about all this.

Thanks. Im Ok. Assuming patents are good for 15 years, the ID is an 1875-1890 Pocket-Book Clasp possibly skating related. The prongs are for leather that rotted away.

If anyone disagrees that too bad.

 

[nuggy]

Yep the Pocket book makes total sense - a pocket book falls into the bag - case category; probably a child's one with that motif - specially if a coin or two were found with it
The motif would have been something the maker thought would appeal to their target market.
I used to be a leather worker lol.
Thanks, I enjoyed the discussion. Nuggy

 

[VERMONTPACKRAT]

Now I want to go back and hunt the area of the field that this clasp came from to see if there are any other things to find that are related.

I did find a ball button about twenty feet away from the clasp


VPR

 

[diggummup]

Yep the Pocket book makes total sense - a pocket book falls into the bag - case category; probably a child's one with that motif - specially if a coin or two were found with it
The motif would have been something the maker thought would appeal to their target market.
I used to be a leather worker lol.
Thanks, I enjoyed the discussion. Nuggy

I found the patent for the pocket book clasp several days ago, before this thread was posted here.http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,408262.0.html It's similar but not exact. http://tinyurl.com/3k23mql and not the same inventor/maker. Scroll up on the link to see the drawing.

 

[Lucky13]

Roller skating in a hay field....... I be damned.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Revived thread i know but...BCH, your "pickaxe" button looks more like one of those Japanese umbrella's they use in the sun, and i see no inkling of a toe stop on the original button. I think it's just a depicted stance for girls. Seen the same stance depicted for ice skaters and girls stood at bus stops in high heels etc. Just saying.