What are the federal laws in USA regarding finding a buried coin cache?

[Jason in Enid]

There is a great deal of misinformation on this thread. KvonM covered the income tax topic in his classic Treasure Hunter's Manuals. He was the first treasure writer to do that - and what he wrote is still true.

Here's an excellent summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesarini_v._United_States

Federal income taxes are due on what you find. It's ordinary income - capital gains have nothing to do with it. Unless you are in the full-time occupation of treasure hunting, it's "hobby income" so you can't deduct your expenses.

That's the law. Whether people follow the law or not is up to them. Leaving out the crackpot sovereign citizen stuff, if you don't pay your taxes you are building on a foundation of sand. You will continue to work hard - but one day somebody can step in and take everything away from you.

Can more than one person keep a secret? Of course. As long as all the other folks are dead.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

Nope, if you are paying taxes on listed income, you can claim deductions on anything related to that income. Where people get into trouble is trying to claim more deductions than they report in income. I pay taxes on my youtube video income. It doesnt matter if thats my primary income or not. Because I pay taxes, I can claim deductions for equipment, fuel, travel, etc as long as its done smart and proportional. I pay a professional tax preparer a lot of money every year to handle those things and keep me legal while getting the max refund.

 

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[Old Bookaroo]

Jason in Enid: You are correct and I was wrong.

From the IRS website - it's a few years old, so taxpayers should check the most recent laws, rules and regulations. However, the principles are the same.

IRS Summertime Tax Tip 2014-15, August 6, 2014

Millions of people enjoy hobbies that are also a source of income. Some examples include stamp and coin collecting, craft making,and horsemanship.
You must report on your tax return the incomeyou earn from a hobby. The rules for how you report the income and expensesdepend on whether the activity is a hobby or a business. There are specialrules and limits for deductions you can claim for a hobby. Here are five taxtips you should know about hobbies:

1. Is it a Business or a Hobby? A key feature of a business is that you do it to make a profit. You often engage in a hobby for sport or recreation, not to make a profit. You should consider nine factors when you determine whether your activity is a hobby. Make sure to base your determination on all the facts and circumstances of your situation. For more about ‘not-for-profit’ rules see Publication 535, Business Expenses.

2. Allowable Hobby Deductions. Within certain limits, you can usually deduct ordinary and necessary hobby expenses. An ordinary expense is one that is common and accepted for the activity. A necessaryexpense is one that is appropriate for the activity.

3. Limits on Hobby Expenses. Generally, you can only deduct your hobby expenses up to the amount of hobby income. If your hobby expenses are more than your hobby income, you have a loss from the activity. You can’t deduct the loss from your other income.

4. How to Deduct Hobby Expenses. You must itemize deductions on your tax return in order to deduct hobby expenses. Your expenses may fall into three types of deductions, and special rules apply to each type. See of Publication 535 for the rules about how you claim them on Schedule A, Itemized Deductions.

Good luck to all,

The OldBookaroo

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Great discussion bookaroo and Jason. And ... I'm sure you can hear the stampede: All the rustling & footsteps of md'rs on T'net. Who are now rushing to declare the income , on their income tax returns, for the clad , ebay sales, etc...

I recall that a link where that CA couple , who stumbled on to the cans of gold coins while walking on their dog on their (?) property. The link said that taxes would be due EVEN IF THEY HADN'T YET SOLD THE COINS. Right ? Maybe that's sort of like how if you win a giant slot machine pay-out in Las Vegas, you pay taxes, EVEN IF YOU HAVEN'T YET spent the $$ . Right ?

So were the couple with the gold coin in CA taxed on the face value of the gold coins ? (Eg.: $5 gold piece = $5 income) ? Or were they taxed at collectible sale value ? That might be like the following scenario: If I pay you for goods and services rendered by giving you a $20,000 Corvette, how is that counted as income to you ? Is it treated as intrinsic metal scrap value ? Or is it valued at $20,000 value ?

And so too is the income tax laws of paying employees: If you give "perks" (cars, vacations, houses, etc...) as payment for labor: You still pay tax on the VALUE of those things. Even though they're are not cash that is spent by the receiving party.

According to the link about the CA couple: They had to pay value on the sales/numismatic value WHETHER OR NOT they actually sold the coins. (So, as you can see, they're sort of forced to sell, JUST to pay the taxes).

If someone doubts, I'll fish up the link. It was very interesting.

Hence, yes: I hear the stampede sounds of all the guilt-ridden T'netters, rushing to the nearest IRS agent to pay their taxes. After all: The only thing the IRS has to do, to crack down, is to merely read T'net's "Today's find" section. And they'll have a laundry list of finds-that-contain value. And will then send their black helicopters and Navy seal commandos, to come get their fair share of tax-payment.

 

[Honest Samuel]

It is always good to hear from Professor Tom. IRS is only interesting in treasures worth a lot of money.

 

[AurumHunter024]

Interesting conversation...

“Any law repugnant to the constitution is void.”
Maybury v Madison
U.S. Supreme Court

Being forced to give a signature is a violation of your 5th Amendment Rights.

Congress was given the power to tax & they DO NOT have the authority to delegate that job to anybody else without We The Peoples consent. Without our consent, any powers given to Congress, delegated to another entity, is done so under fraudulent circumstances!

 

[orange_sweetheart]

So do you owe taxes when you FIND the cache, or when you CONVERT it to cash? Or is this just semantics? I'm still confused ...

 

[Slowtaknow]

I am outrage over # 6, & # 7. Do not cheat IRS and therefore the good people of our country.

No one is trying to cheat anyone, the taxes forced upon us are in excess, they tax us if we make it, save it, spend it, give it, and on something we own after we bought it- car, house, and land. Soon there there will be a tax tax called a handling fee.

 

[Red James Cash]

Keep your mouth shut unless you feel like paying an agency that isn't even a U.S. gooberment agency,entity, a good portion of it.

 

[mike b]

Is this a hypothetical situation or is there more to your first post here?!?

That's what I want to know.

 

[uglymailman]

The Carnival came to town. One of the side shows was a strong man. The Huckster cut a lemon in half and let the strong man squeeze all the juice out of it then let the farm boys pay a buck to see if they could squeeze just one more drop out of it and get paid 100 dollars if they could. Farm boy after farm boy paid their buck but had no success. Then along comes a little guy who plucks down his dollar and proceeds to squeeze a half cup of juice out of the half lemon. The Huckster shook his head and paid out the 100 dollars but asked the little guy just what he did for a living. The little guy replied "Oh, I work for the IRS."

 

[ivan salis]

true fact --I went to the dog track and bet MY OWN already income taxed money on a race (took a chance of loss of my money that I had to pay income tax on already )-- the dogs won that I picked --I won several hundred dollars ...the tote board said "go to IRS window to claim" which I had to get MY MONEY once there the GOVT took 28% of my winnings 700 became 504 ...yep they swiped 196 bucks of MY WINNINGS and for what --they gave me no tips on what dogs to pick , chipped in nothing on my gas to get there on , or cost of the ticket , no help in any way or form--and if I lose its "a hobby loss and I can not write it off --however if I win --I must pay taxes upon it --however if I win... the amount I win and pay taxes on can get "recovered if I can show that amount of loss (if I can show 700 in losses my 700 in income is now not taxable ) since I only broke even --but only to the level of my prior "winnings"--in other words you can't win over 600 bucks and not pay taxes upon it ...uncle sugar is a crook

 

[RTR]

Mel Fisher probably fought the system as much as humanly possible to keep the treasure he found. Years & years with dozens of court battles. Out of the nearly 1/2 Billion he recovered from the Atocha (so far) Mel's Net worth is 100 Million.

 

[Holyground]

I cross a guys pasture to get up near some old gold mines here near Ketchum Idaho. I always tell the caretaker when I enter and we have a great time chatting. He told me a story about the estate across the road. It is owned by the guy that owns Rolling Stone Magazine, as a Ski vacation place. Back some years, he had two guys cleaing some brush off to the side and below the house. Well, they had a small tractor and were scraping the ground when one of them noticed a very large gold coin laying there. He then noticed another, and another and another until they had found several, a bag full, that had been buried there back in the 1800s when the mines above were in operation. So the boss, tells the helper that he would put them in his safe, to keep them safe, until they could sit down and sort them and split them. In a few days, he fired the helper, and told him not to come back around. The helper went to the police and told them that his boss stole his share of the loot. The Sherriff got a search warrant, and of course took all of the coins. The owner of the land was notified and all of his attorneys were on the next plane to Idaho. The judge decided that the owner of the land owned the coins, and that is were they ended up.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... The judge decided that the owner of the land owned the coins,....

And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the same concept would apply to valuable coins you find on any type public land too. Pick any place you routinely detect (park, schoolyard, beaches, etc...) and have never been bothered. And let's say that you find a rare CC $5 gold worth $20,000 . Take it to the agency that administers that park, forest, beach, or wherever. And say: "Hi. I found this on your land. It's worth $20,000 . Can I keep it for my own pleasure and profit ? Or does it belong to you guys ?".

Then sit back and relish in their answer. So what you are saying is not only for the worker/landscaper story you tell, but it's also true of public land too.

 

[MidMoTreasure]

The judge decided that the owner of the land owned the coins, and that is were they ended up.

That is the correct result. Property law dictates that the landowner owns the horde because he did not give the folks permission to find treasure.

The landowner also had to pay state and federal income tax on the fair market value of the treasure. Being that he owns a once-great magazine, I'm sure it was not an issue for him.

And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the same concept would apply to valuable coins you find on any type public land too.

Absent any express law or ordinance to the contrary, this is legally not correct. Public land is public land. The governmental entity may enact certain restrictions pursuant to their police powers (public health, safety, and welfare). If there are no such restrictions relating to found property, then it belongs to the finder.

 

[Grizz12]

That is the correct result. Property law dictates that the landowner owns the horde because he did not give the folks permission to find treasure.

The landowner also had to pay state and federal income tax on the fair market value of the treasure. Being that he owns a once-great magazine, I'm sure it was not an issue for him.



Absent any express law or ordinance to the contrary, this is legally not correct. Public land is public land. The governmental entity may enact certain restrictions pursuant to their police powers (public health, safety, and welfare). If there are no such restrictions relating to found property, then it belongs to the finder.

You're right on both statements. The United States was created to get away from an overbearing govt. which believed everything on all the lands belonged to the king and therefor taxable. This extended to game animals

 

[Toecutter]

if i find a cashe of gold im going to crouch over it and look side to side only moving my eyes and slowly pull it tords me , i might even give the ol mustache a twist, then run for hills and turn into a miser.....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... If there are no such restrictions relating to found property, then it belongs to the finder.

Yes. There will be "restrictions", if you stand on one foot and squint real hard and ask enough govt. lawyers. It would fall under laws/rules that forbid: "Harvest" , "take", "remove", and "collect". Laws that were written so that no numbskull thinks he can take home the picnic benches. Or start cutting down trees for lumber. Or back up his truck and start commercially harvesting the sand or sod. These laws exist on EVERY SPECK OF PUBLIC LAND.

Can they be applied to individual coins, rings, etc... ? SURE . Just keep asking long enough and hard enough, and you will find someone to tell you that it applies. After all, you "removed" a "park feature".

Shame on you. I know you are racked with guilt right now, eh ? But not to worry : Just box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt. Thankyou.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And lest you think I'm making this up: Believe it or not, these type rules (forbidding "take" and "remove") have been the answer given to various md'rs . When the md'rs showed up at city hall, county parks, state parks, etc... asking if it was ok to metal detect. Bless their little hearts: Their "pressing question" gets bandied around, desk to desk, and this is the answer they were given sometimes. Ie.: "No, d/t such & such rule that forbids take/harvest/collect".

Well gee, it was a good thing they asked, eh ?

 

[MidMoTreasure]

These laws exist on EVERY SPECK OF PUBLIC LAND. Shame on you. I know you are racked with guilt right now, eh ? But not to worry : Just box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt.

Sorry, this is not accurate. I work as a government attorney (MD'ing is ALLOWED on all municipal land in my city) and I hunt public land. Metal detecting does not fall under the "harvest/take/remove/collect" laws, at least not in my state (Missouri). All states and local governments are different, which is why I recommend curious people to check their local laws. Almost all governmental entities have their ordinances and laws available for search online.

Shame on you. I know you are racked with guilt right now, eh ? But not to worry : Just box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt.

I hope you are being tongue-in-cheek here and not suggesting that I am giving false or misleading information.

And lest you think I'm making this up: Believe it or not, these type rules (forbidding "take" and "remove") have been the answer given to various md'rs . When the md'rs showed up at city hall, county parks, state parks, etc... asking if it was ok to metal detect. Bless their little hearts: Their "pressing question" gets bandied around, desk to desk, and this is the answer they were given sometimes. Ie.: "No, d/t such & such rule that forbids take/harvest/collect".

Well gee, it was a good thing they asked, eh ?

In all my years of hunting public land, I have not personally experienced anything like this. Results may be different in your state. I sometimes get local police or parks/utility personnel who come over and chat with me, but they are always friendly and courteous. They leave me alone after we exchange greetings. I have NEVER been told that I could not detect a public place where there were no regulations prohibiting detecting. Not once. Sorry to hear that you have had different experiences. Consider moving to Missou-rah. Low taxes, nice people, and the mullet is never out of style.