Roy,
["The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."]
OK......I seem to remember you writing, to me, that YOU had seen the records. Could be wrong about that, but I probably still have that information.
Can you tell us where those "still existing records of Wells Fargo" can be found today?
Take care,
Joe
Yes we have been re-visiting this topic for at least seven years.
I could not find where I had seen it, which makes a liar out of me. NO biggie however as everyone knows Oroblanco to be a great liar!
On the other hand, I am becoming
less than impressed with our "experts" on Wells Fargo history. I was able to find documents showing that indeed Wells Fargo was operating (through officially contracted local outfits) in Arizona, even a case where the head of Wells Fargo got involved due to the robberies. (1879) AND that Wells Fargo was indeed hauling ORE in Arizona, in Waltz's lifetime:
A quick peek online turns up a number of sources, the Engineering and Mining Journal 1879 is online and mentions Wells Fargo several times as shipping ores; the Congressional Edition for 1889 is online at
Congressional edition - United States. Congress - Google Books
<extract from page 141>
"
Castle Dome district. The principal mines were practically idle during 1887. The amount of ore reported as shipped appears to have been about 12 tons carrying $840 silver and 60 per cent lead. Handsome specimens of fluorspar and of molybdate of lead are often found. Considerable placer mining was done the placers being worked with dry washers the gold being unusually coarse and pure most of which was shipped through Wells Fargo & Co's express at Yuma and the balance by private conveyance "
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-adams-diggings/267301-two-lost-adams-2.html#post2570915
I was informed by Dr Chandleer that
ALL records for Arizona had been LOST. Now I see that those lost records,
may not have been quite SO lost after all:
For weeks after the quake, guards watched over the sealed cash and record vaults of Wells Fargo Nevada National Bank on Montgomery Street. Finally, when it was determined that the vaults were cool enough to handle, workers were brought in to open them and retrieve their contents. Frederick Lipman, the cashier, had been waiting anxiously for this. Previously, he was told by the bank’s vice-president that all the books were destroyed:
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace]
The vaults had been opened… it was the worst half-hour that I ever have lived. I pictured all my future being devoted to what could be done to restore the records in our books…[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace] [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace]… I went downtown. It was the longest trip I ever took in my life. It happened that when we put the books away hastily into the vault on the 18th that some of them were just thrown in on the floor. And this book vault was built on the bank floor which was one story above the basement and it was built on [iron] framework.
[/FONT]
As it turned out, luck was on Lipman’s side:
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace]
… It didn’t go down to the ground. So the fire in the basement had run along and it had just cooked the vault. What was on the floor was a floury ash. That was the worst part, but after that it began to be better… we found that only one ledger was destroyed. That was but one out of fifteen or sixteen. Then we found at the bottom of the vault the lower part of each book where it was found and that gave us the footing on each page. By that footing we had proof of what the limit was on that page. We felt better when we saw that. We had the footing of each page and the statements and we proved to within $100…
[/FONT]
Ledgers that had been stacked tightly merely charred around the edges, their pages so dense and so heavy that the superheated air could not penetrate them. The books and about $3,000,000 in gold and silver were carried out of the vaults and transferred to the new operating quarters a few blocks down Montgomery in the Union Trust Building.
<borrowed from
Cooking The Books | Guided By HistoryGuided By History >
So it appears that the disastrous quake and fire did not totally destroy the record books after all, which raises the question about where they may be located today?
Cactusjumper also wrote
I will go with what Dr. Chandler (directlly) told me on the phone. For me, that's the best evidence available.
Higham was a notorious.........strory teller. Who wrote the pertanent information between him and the McGees? Did the McGees ever repeat that information in their writings?
I am sorry if I cannot agree that an historian, whom we can prove to be mistaken (
viz Wells Fargo doing business in Arizona during Waltz's lifetime as example) is not the
best evidence for me.
Not claiming that Higham is
more trustworthy than Dr Chandleer, of course.
I was not there when Higham was writing to McGee, nor vice-versa, and do not know if McGee ever repeated that information in their published works.
As far as I know, the only
published mention of the Wells Fargo shipments, was done by Thomas P. Terry. Perhaps you could question him, if he is still alive and kicking, as to his source(s)?
On the other hand, actions speak louder than words, we know that the Petrasches kept searching for the LDM for many years. It seems logical that they must have had a moment of doubt at some point in their searching, at which point something convinced them to continue. This "story" which you have described as "complete fiction" and a "total fabrication" etc could just be the truth, that they did get discouraged, thought Waltz had fooled them, and found those records of shipments which convinced them otherwise.
So far, on every point supposed to
disprove the story, we have found contrary evidences, like the fact that there were Wells Fargo agents handling shipping of freight in AZ, that there were indeed places to send ore or gold in Sacramento, that even some assayers did accept and process ore for smelting, and so on. Not to mention that a mine as described of Waltz's,
ought to have produced a considerable amount of gold even with only a few tons of ore shipped. Certainly more than a few thousand dollars worth.
Oroblanco
Good luck and good hunting Conceptualized, I don't think I will waste any further time on you.
