was Bell Starr realy a Man ?

[RGINN]

Jeff in those days it was the proper thing for ladies (white ladies) to ride side saddle. Even amongst the lower class white folks that was the way women rode a horse. It's not like what you see on the TV Westerns. There was probably some sort of Puritan sexual morality against women riding astraddle a horse. Of course they could, just as well as a man, and native women rode that way, but they usually had to walk. On the day that photo was taken probably every woman in Ft. Smith who was on a horse was probably riding side-saddle. And Belle Starr kinda had a pretty high opinion of herself, that she was just a little bit above all her neighbors in that neck of the woods.

 

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[jeff of pa]

Jeff in those days it was the proper thing for ladies (white ladies) to ride side saddle. Even amongst the lower class white folks that was the way women rode a horse. It's not like what you see on the TV Westerns. There was probably some sort of Puritan sexual morality against women riding astraddle a horse. Of course they could, just as well as a man, and native women rode that way, but they usually had to walk. On the day that photo was taken probably every woman in Ft. Smith who was on a horse was probably riding side-saddle. And Belle Starr kinda had a pretty high opinion of herself, that she was just a little bit above all her neighbors in that neck of the woods.

there may have been a Morality thing involved, But I still find it hard to believe Belle had Morals

Besides that Most woman back than had full Dresses & a hundred Petty Coats.
add the Fake Butt shelf that looked like a place to set your beer down



my guess that was allot of the reason for side saddle.

 

[RGINN]

I'm tryin to find my book by Shirley but as I recall he just let it ride as that was her. Might not be right. Keep in mind that pic of Belle was a posed shot when she was in Ft. Smith on a court matter, so she's gonna be dressed to the nines and also playin to the photographer with the open display of guns. Probably around the house she dressed just like a man and rode around on a horse just like a man. I have seen pictures of some of my aunts in the Choctaw Nation back around the turn of the century and they are mounted side saddle. They don't have the 100 petticoats underneath, and the saddles are regular 2 stirrup saddles, but side saddle was considered proper for ladies, and they were posing for a pic. No telling what they did when the camera wasn't around, but in my family women didn't really do much riding of horses. They stayed at home. If you can find that Shirley book about Belle Starr, her life and times, it's a good read. He's done a lot of research, and it's noteworthy that there is absolutely no mention of Belle Starr and her outlaw gang dragging an iron door up into the Wichita mountains to conceal a cave filled with treasure.

 

[RGINN]

And thank you for putting up this post, Jeff. I'm always interested in Oklahoma history. You should look into the Rufus Buck Gang. Some of the sorriest s.o.b.'s to ever ride through the nations, and we're all glad that Judge Parker hung them.

 

[jeff of pa]

And thank you for putting up this post, Jeff. I'm always interested in Oklahoma history. You should look into the Rufus Buck Gang. Some of the sorriest s.o.b.'s to ever ride through the nations, and we're all glad that Judge Parker hung them.

LOL The Wichita daily eagle. (Wichita, Kan.), 24 Aug. 1895.



The Wichita daily eagle. (Wichita, Kan.) 1890-1906, August 24, 1895, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[jeff of pa]

79 Mentions of "rufus buck" but not all are the right one

Search Results « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

only 5 mention the rufus buck Gang. sound like animals though.

Search Results « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


& tons on Belle Starr

Search Results « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[Chizzy]

Jeff........that very first picture you posted sure looks like Will Rogers in drag.............

 

[RGINN]

The Rufus Buck gang was a sorry bunch of punks from over in Creek Nation whose escapades made Belle Starr look like a Sunday School teacher. Rufus come up with some idea that he was striking back for wrongs committed by white people, but Indian people weren't exempt from the gang's attention. Here's a pic of the gang after their capture. They were good at raping defenseless women to death, but had a little trouble standing up against decent armed lawmen. As a bonus, here's a pic of the poem ol jailhouse religion convert Rufus wrote for his mama before he was hung. "My, Dream" He, drempt, he, was, in, heaven. Well, far as most of us are concerned it was a dream, cause when that trapdoor fell he was on an express elevator straight to hell.

 

[jeff of pa]

just found this

 

[RGINN]

Cool Jeff. First guy up is ol Cherokee Bill (Crawford Goldsby) He reportedly had killed 7 men by the time Parker's court hung him at the age of 20 in 1896. Supposedly when asked if he had any last words he said 'I come here to die, not to make a speech'. I see Henry Starr, first guy to use an automobile in a bank robbery, and Ned Christie, hounded and finally killed by lawdogs for a crime he in all likelihood did not commit. In case people get the wrong impression of the Ft. Smith court and Judge Parker, not everybody was sentenced to be hung. My great grandpa appeared before him on a charge of larceny in the Indian Nations and got off with probation. It was just a misunderstanding over the ownership of a horse, so I've heard.

 

[ivan salis]

there are "rough manly looking women" and sissy womanly looking men as well ... and if you looked manly as a woman in the 1800's may god have pity on you --cause no one else did ... and as far as being unlady like --being treated like crap --the women made fun of you and the men didn't think you were cute --so you fit n no where --that's enough to make a person mean ..being a sort of "Frankenstein woman"