WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[bigscoop]

LOL! WHAT is the "entire scope of things" to YOU...?

I try to evaluate everything like a courtroom, playing both prosecutor and defense attorney, not just the prosecutor.

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

I try to evaluate everything like a courtroom, playing both prosecutor and defense attorney, not just the prosecutor.

LOL! Too VAGUE... is the Beale Treasure story on "Death Row" for YOU, then...?

 

[tat2guy]

I would have to say that the Beale papers are far from dead to any of us on here, or we wouldn't be here. I think finding some of the normal everyday things about the men in the party and their lives is key to. There's nothing known about a small party of men (30'ish) missing or being missed that any of us have found, correct? I believe the time frame given in the pamphlet is correct. So why would people not look for this party? Maybe because their not missing? Are they where their supposed to be? I think so. But time for more R&I

 

[bigscoop]

LOL! Too VAGUE... is the Beale Treasure story on "Death Row" for YOU, then...?

No, not at all. In fact, as of late I am inspired more then ever regarding the "possibility" that the story in the Beale Pamphlet "may" have actually occurred. As you've obviously noticed, in the last year or so I was leaning pretty heavily that the story was probably just a fictional, at best, so obviously new information has come forth recently to change my position on that. Right now all I can tell you is that it's only when we start looking in different places that we may start to find different answers. Recently our searching has been by way of entirely new avenues we had yet to explore. I have always held the position that the Beale story could not have taken place "just as it was described" in the pamphlet, however, today I am "nearly convinced" that it was entirely possible, if not even likely. So is it a dead horse? No. It's just a different horse then any I have ridden before.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

No, not at all. In fact, as of late I am inspired more then ever regarding the "possibility" that the story in the Beale Pamphlet "may" have actually occurred. As you've obviously noticed, in the last year or so I was leaning pretty heavily that the story was probably just a fictional, at best, so obviously new information has come forth recently to change my position on that. Right now all I can tell you is that it's only when we start looking in different places that we may start to find different answers. Recently our searching has been by way of entirely new avenues we had yet to explore. I have always held the position that the Beale story could not have taken place "just as it was described" in the pamphlet, however, today I am "nearly convinced" that it was entirely possible, if not even likely. So is it a dead horse? No. It's just a different horse then any I have ridden before.

TROJAN Horse, eh...?

 

[ECS]

In fact, as of late I am inspired more then ever regarding the "possibility" that the story in the Beale Pamphlet "may" have actually occurred... Right now all I can tell you is that it's only when we start looking in different places that we may start to find different answers. Recently our searching has been by way of entirely new avenues we had yet to explore. I have always held the position that the Beale story could not have taken place "just as it was described" in the pamphlet, however, today I am "nearly convinced" that it was entirely possible, if not even likely...

One avenue to search: Is there ANY evidence outside of the BEALE PAMPHLET that the mention treasure exists?
Everyone seems to play six degrees of separation from either Beale or Morriss,adding a name here another suspect there....but where is the historical evidence that the treasure was real or ever existed?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

One avenue to search: Is there ANY evidence outside of the BEALE PAMPHLET that the mention treasure exists?
Everyone seems to play six degrees of separation from either Beale or Morriss,adding a name here another suspect there....but where is the historical evidence that the treasure was real or ever existed?

HART PAPERS has story of TREASURE buried in Bedford County, VIRGINA. It is story of two Treasure Hunters (HART Bros) from Roanoke, Va. WITHOUT the BE "era" story, and CIPHERS very similar to BC # 1, 2, & 3 (NUMBERS were slightly changed). READ that story... it IS "on-line". JB Ward was interviewed, copy was found of the BP... INTERESTING "read".

 

[bigscoop]

One avenue to search: Is there ANY evidence outside of the BEALE PAMPHLET that the mention treasure exists?
Everyone seems to play six degrees of separation from either Beale or Morriss,adding a name here another suspect there....but where is the historical evidence that the treasure was real or ever existed?

This was my main course of research for several years and in that time I was only able to find a handful of references of a large shipment of wealth coming from west to east. Of these, only three were within the time period described in the Beale Pamphlet. Ironically, all three of them fell within the same two or three year period. 1818 - 1821. One of these references one was from the southwest, while the other two were from the general region the Beale party was said to have traveled. And then there is one other reference during the period, an expedition that entered the "exact" same region described in the Beale Pamphlet, though there is no direct reference to wealth. Of all these references only one provided additional sources, or additional recorded mention. However, one thing that did become quite obvious during all of this research is that there were a lot of white men traveling into the region even when it was still under Spanish control, contrary to the age old belief that the Spanish imprisoned "everyone" and ruled the region with an iron fist. Fact is, there were "very few" Spanish resources in the region and passage was more common then previously believed.

 

[ECS]

... I was only able to find a handful of references of a large shipment of wealth coming from west to east. Of these, only three were within the time period described in the Beale Pamphlet. Ironically, all three of them fell within the same two or three year period. 1818 - 1821. One of these references one was from the southwest, while the other two were from the general region the Beale party was said to have traveled. And then there is one other reference during the period, an expedition that entered the "exact" same region described in the Beale Pamphlet, though there is no direct reference to wealth. Of all these references only one provided additional sources, or additional recorded mention...

Still NO substantial HARD evidence that the Beale treasure ever existed-just additional speculative facts that "MIGHT" fit the pamphlet tale.

 

[Justintime]

Its a fact that a DOI came out of a sealed compartment of a iron Boxand has TJB on it,and has maps of Bedford County. Believe what you want to,thats kool,but its real.Justsayn Justintime

 

[bigscoop]

Still NO substantial HARD evidence that the Beale treasure ever existed-just additional speculative facts that "MIGHT" fit the pamphlet tale.

True. However, in 1819/20 one of these parties were in the described Colorado region and also Santa Fe. but it is fairly certain they could not have transported a large quantity of wealth. Ironically, this same party started into the region in 1817 as well.

 

[ECS]

True. However, in 1819/20 one of these parties were in the described Colorado region and also Santa Fe. but it is fairly certain they could not have transported a large quantity of wealth. Ironically, this same party started into the region in 1817 as well.

Are you refering to Capt Zebulon Pike's 1805-1807 expeditipn from the upper Mississippi to the Rockies and then onto Sante Fe,which was part of the Spanish territory of Mexico?
You also mention the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819,also known as THE FLORIDA PURCHASE TREATY or THE TRANSCONTINENTAL TREATY.
It came about after General Andrew Jackson's foreys into Florida,basicly making Florida a conquered province.While Sec of State John Q Adams did not approve of Jackson's actions,he upheld Jackson against Sec of War John C Calhoun's criticism,and persuaded President Monroe to send an ultimatum to Spain.
This treaty of cession created a boundary line (stairstep) from the Sabine River in Texas to the point where the 42 parallel of latitude meets the Pacific Ocean,as SPANISH territory.
What does the Adam's-Onis Treaty have to do with the Beale Pamphlet and treasure?

 

[bigscoop]

Are you refering to Capt Zebulon Pike's 1805-1807 expeditipn from the upper Mississippi to the Rockies and then onto Sante Fe,which was part of the Spanish territory of Mexico?
You also mention the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819,also known as THE FLORIDA PURCHASE TREATY or THE TRANSCONTINENTAL TREATY.
It came about after General Andrew Jackson's foreys into Florida,basicly making Florida a conquered province.While Sec of State John Q Adams did not approve of Jackson's actions,he upheld Jackson against Sec of War John C Calhoun's criticism,and persuaded President Monroe to send an ultimatum to Spain.
This treaty of cession created a boundary line (stairstep) from the Sabine River in Texas to the point where the 42 parallel of latitude meets the Pacific Ocean,as SPANISH territory.
What does the Adam's-Onis Treaty have to do with the Beale Pamphlet and treasure?

No. Not Pike. There was another. Years have been spent researching documents in regards to the events of West Florida and the disputed Texas region, this includes hundreds of personal correspondences and official documents, as well as many documents housed in numerous private collections. Let me ask you this, who do you think financed the American effort during the War of 1812? "Where did the majority of the money come from?" This shouldn't prove hard to find. Once you locate this person continue to research him thoroughly. Also, you'll want to dive deep into the collections of Madison, Monroe, Adams, de Onis, and through this you will find many others to quirk your interest. You may even come across the letter from Monroe to Joseph Bonaparte in which Monroe is in utter denial of having paid Bonaparte and others for services rendered. And the man who helped finance the War of 1812, you will eventually learn of his close connections to Bonaparte, Lallemand, and others. Through all of this research you will indeed learn a great deal, but most important you will eventually encounter the name of James Risque again, and many others, and even a Thomas Beale and also a Thomas Beall. Now you've asked me why I believe the Adam's Onis Treaty likely played a role in the Beale Pamphlet and I wish I could could give you the short answer you're awaiting, but i can't because there is no short answer. But I will, however, offer you the following map as to why I say there was another party in the west during the period and why I also say that they were in Santa Fe. So as for your theory, there were many sources of this information even before 1850. In fact, right now, if you go to ebay and a few auction sites you'll even find newspapers and maps from the era in relation to some of the events I've spoken of up for auction.


PS: Study the map closely.

 

[ECS]

It is interesting that you mentioned Joseph Bonapart.In the 1950's,my grandmother,an architec,was part of the New Jersey Historical Society.She would study a site or house,and would draw blueprints of the dwellings.
When I was six,she took me to Bonapart's mansion at Point Breeze in Bordertown ,New Jersey,where she was researching and mapping the vast network of tunnels beneath the property that led to the Delaware River and Crosswicks Creek.The only one I entered had an arched brick ceiling and had a creek running through it.That is all that I remember of that trip.
Joseph Bonapart did entertain many statesmen of his times at his mansion,including John Q Adams (Adams-Onis Treaty) and Daniel Webster.
Bonapart returned to Europe in 1832,reunited with his wife in Italy and died in Florence in 1844.

 

[bigscoop]

There's a lot of interesting stuff with the Bonapartes, Lallemands, Girard, Marshall, Clay, Monroe, and a whole host of others. Point Breeze was a fabulous place and you are correct, many prominent and influential people were guest of the place. There's just a ton of documents and correspondences out there. Only about 30% - 40% of some of these collections/personal records have been gone through. Hard to say what may still be laying undiscovered in all of it. There are still several leads that need to be followed and several people who still need to be looked into.

 

[ECS]

There's a lot of interesting stuff with the Bonapartes, Lallemands, Girard, Marshall, Clay, Monroe, and a whole host of others. Point Breeze was a fabulous place and you are correct, many prominent and influential people were guest of the place... There are still several leads that need to be followed and several people who still need to be looked into.

That is quite a list of names.
Stephen Girard,banker/merchant of Philadelphia,financed the US Treasury with his own wealth for the WAR OF 1812.His neice,Henrietta,married Henri Lallemond,a deserter from Napolean's army,and friend of Joseph Bonaparte.
The map ypu posted shows the LONG-BELL EXPEDITION of 1820,federaly funded and sactioned by Sec of War,John C Calhoun,as a scenitific exploration,but it was a coverup for its true purpose-a recon and intelligence of the Spanish Territory after the Adams-Onis Treaty.Led by Major Stephen H Long with Capt John R Bell as the journal writer of the mission,they traveled from the Red River to the Platte,to Manitou Springs and Pikes Peak,and Sante FE,all well within the Spanish Territory.There is NO mention of gold in Bell's journal.
What do these people and events have to do with the BEALE treasure?

 

[bigscoop]

That is quite a list of names.
Stephen Girard,banker/merchant of Philadelphia,financed the US Treasury with his own wealth for the WAR OF 1812.His neice,Henrietta,married Henri Lallemond,a deserter from Napolean's army,and friend of Joseph Bonaparte.
The map ypu posted shows the LONG-BELL EXPEDITION of 1820,federaly funded and sactioned by Sec of War,John C Calhoun,as a scenitific exploration,but it was a coverup for its true purpose-a recon and intelligence of the Spanish Territory after the Adams-Onis Treaty.Led by Major Stephen H Long with Capt John R Bell as the journal writer of the mission,they traveled from the Red River to the Platte,to Manitou Springs and Pikes Peak,and Sante FE,all well within the Spanish Territory.There is NO mention of gold in Bell's journal.
What do these people and events have to do with the BEALE treasure?

I see you've been busy reading up on things. In 1816/1817 George Graham (a banker) is appointed as the interim Sec. of War, so in essence your War Dept. is now being headed up by a banker. More on this later. Anyway, in 1818 two important events take place, the Adam's Onis Treaty is signed and George Graham is sent to Galveston Island with a small party of men. Nearly as soon as George Graham returns from his Galveston trip/mission he is appointed as president of The Second Bank of America (1819). While Graham was at Galveston Island he met with Laffite, James Long, and Charles Lallemand. When Graham departs Galveston Island Charles Lallemand departs with him. (Laffite, J. Long, and Lallemand make up the entire core of the insurgents who were in the region.) James Long is eventually captured by the Spanish and taken to Mexico City where his later "assassinated" and not "executed" as many general sources claim, (More on this later). In 1821 the Adam's Onis Treaty is ratified as expected after the two-year agreed term when the treaty was signed in 1818. (You'll want to research the "spoliation agreement" of this treaty.) As soon as the treaty is signed Laffite leaves Galveston Island. In 1823 the Monroe doctrine is introduced, though actually penned by Adam's. And, in 1823 Graham leaves his position as President of the Second Bank. Now then, while he was holding his position as President of that Bank, who did George Graham answer to at that Bank? And, what was the importance of this Bank and the congressional controversy surrounding it?

 

[ECS]

March 3,1817,the US Congress passed a bill offering land to French settlers in Texas.This was during the time George Graham was US Sec of War.When John C Calhoun became Sec of War,Graham stayed on as a "special agent" and made the trip to Galveston to meet with Jean Laffite and Bonapatists General Charles Lallemand.
Champ d' Asile was founded by Lammemand in 1818,and also on Jan 14,1818,150 would be settlers arrived in Texas from Phliadelphia.
The Philadelphia and National Bank connection appears to lead to Stephen Girard,and I have noted Girard's connection to the Lallemond family.
Arlingtoncemetary.net: The Leading Arlington Cemetery Site on the Net
Graham is buried at Arlington,and there is an essay on him at this site.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

March 3,1817,the US Congress passed a bill offering land to French settlers in Texas.This was during the time George Graham was US Sec of War.When John C Calhoun became Sec of War,Graham stayed on as a "special agent" and made the trip to Galveston to meet with Jean Laffite and Bonapatists General Charles Lallemand.
Champ d' Asile was founded by Lammemand in 1818,and also on Jan 14,1818,150 would be settlers arrived in Texas from Phliadelphia.
The Philadelphia and National Bank connection appears to lead to Stephen Girard,and I have noted Girard's connection to the Lallemond family.
Arlingtoncemetary.net: The Leading Arlington Cemetery Site on the Net
Graham is buried at Arlington,and there is an essay on him at this site.

THAT is GREAT info!

 

[ECS]

FROM THE MEMOIRES OF JEAN LAFITTE

Dated Jan 4,1847 concerning events on Feb 24,1821 preparing to depart from Galveston-"I recommended to Mr Hall,Mr Campbell,Mr SHERMAN and those of Bolivar to KEEP PROMISE AND DISTRIBUTE THE GOLD TO THE INDICATED PLACES."
Dated June 4,1850-"Mr WARD,Mr Knowles,and Mr Peabody seem to be very,nice men..."
-Relatives of the Sherman and Ward of the BEALE PAMPHLET?Where are the indicated places?
Dated Dec 1,1846-"My meeting took place with him (de Onis) during my third mission to Washington in the presence of Secretary Adams and President Monroe."
Adams,Monroe,de Onis,and Laffitte together in a meeting in Washington-coincidence?