waltz death

[gollum]

Folks,

There is not a shred of documentary evidence that Gideon Roberts was at Waltz's bedside at the time of his death. The story regarding that sits on somewhat shaky ground if I am not mistaken. We know Holmes was there, because he got the ore. What nobody knows for sure is how he got the ore. Was Waltz sick and thought he was talking to Rhiney when he told Holmes about the ore? Did Holmes just see the box under his bed and peek inside, then make up the story about Waltz giving it to him? Or did the story happen just like Holmes said it did? Waltz is dead, and we ONLY have Holmes' word on the subject.

The ore was absolutely there. We know that because Holmes suddenly came into a lot of cash after Waltz's death. Also, Julia later sued Holmes for the ore.

Mike

 

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[gublube]

Oro is giving you a lot of good, factual information. Very few posters will do that.

yes, oro is, as he always does. im just a reader and every now and then ill ask a few things. like gullome says, we know holmes came up on that ore somehow. i was just putting the possibility that if there was no one else there when he got it then maybe he got few clues, the ore and helped waltz rest in peace. you never know. ive seen many people on their death bed. most with pnuemonia as well. they dont just talk then die. they are so sick when at that point they kinda go into a small coma and then its over. i just dont see him that sick trying to explain the clues and confessions of his killings. but who am i..thats just some thought is all.

john

 

[gublube]

If your following info from myth busters your in trouble right from the start

im not following myth busters. ive been reading this story for at least 10 yrs. i read almost every post on the other forum, the lost dutchman mine. ive read alot here. the new mythbusters season two has a story on it with dr glover and few other well known dutch hunters as well telling the story on the show. i assume he is giving the same info as he writes about. i have his book with the holmes manuscrit, pretty close to his story there. since dr glover is the one on the show saying that julia went to get help when he took a turn for the worse holmes just happen to show up and she asked him to look after him. he also says that during an hour or so waltz confesses all the killings, then makes him a deal to take the ore, help his sister in germany and split it. when julia returns holmes is gone, and so is the ore. thats exactly what dr glover and the others state on the show...i dont see why he would give different info just cause its a show.

john

 

[gublube]

i think when someone dedicates so much for nothing like holmes did,his father did he is desperate. waltz may have said something about the ore, maybe not. but he died and holmes was gone with it. i think he helped him die. waltz would have gave that ore to julia as she was the one he trusted the most imo. she shows up, waltz is dead, ore and holmes gone. with waltz dead no one can call him a liar about holmes giving it to him.

john

 

[Oroblanco]

I would only add here that while Dick Holmes did indeed end up with the gold from the candle box, we have no proof of how he obtained it, nor when. Waltz may well have been already dead when Holmes entered the room, we simply do not know and it is not possible to prove or disprove at this point in time. The fact that Holmes and later his son and then Clay Wurst, searched in very different areas of the Superstitions from what the supposed "Holmes manuscript" directions indicate, certainly suggests that what ever information Holmes had, is not in the manuscript.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, wishing you all a very prosperous and Happy New Year, and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

gublube,

So now in the safety of the anonymous internet, you are calling Dick Holmes a murderer? I have always said that I despise people that come out without a shred of evidence to back their stories and cast serious aspersions at people they don't know or know anybody that knows. Maybe you can back up that most serious of allegations with maybe ONE piece of evidence? The people that knew him never thought that was a possibility. Even Julia Thomas who was PISSED at him for taking the ore never made that accusation.

If I were a descendant of Holmes, and you made the allegation that my gggrandfather was a murderer, you would have a serious problem!

But this is the anonymous internet isn't it? How would you feel if someone posted that they thought your ggrandfather was a child molester? That's a serious charge, and he isn't here to answer that accusation. I'm not saying anything about your family, just trying to make you see how serious it can be leveling a charge like you made against someone that is not here to defend themselves.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

gublube,

So now in the safety of the anonymous internet, you are calling Dick Holmes a murderer? I have always said that I despise people that come out without a shred of evidence to back their stories and cast serious aspersions at people they don't know or know anybody that knows. Maybe you can back up that most serious of allegations with maybe ONE piece of evidence? The people that knew him never thought that was a possibility. Even Julia Thomas who was PISSED at him for taking the ore never made that accusation.

If I were a descendant of Holmes, and you made the allegation that my gggrandfather was a murderer, you would have a serious problem!

But this is the anonymous internet isn't it? How would you feel if someone posted that they thought your ggrandfather was a child molester? That's a serious charge, and he isn't here to answer that accusation. I'm not saying anything about your family, just trying to make you see how serious it can be leveling a charge like you made against someone that is not here to defend themselves.

Mike

Dude. There is nothing anonymous about the internet. But you already knew that.

 

[gublube]

gublube,

So now in the safety of the anonymous internet, you are calling Dick Holmes a murderer? I have always said that I despise people that come out without a shred of evidence to back their stories and cast serious aspersions at people they don't know or know anybody that knows. Maybe you can back up that most serious of allegations with maybe ONE piece of evidence? The people that knew him never thought that was a possibility. Even Julia Thomas who was PISSED at him for taking the ore never made that accusation.

If I were a descendant of Holmes, and you made the allegation that my gggrandfather was a murderer, you would have a serious problem!

But this is the anonymous internet isn't it? How would you feel if someone posted that they thought your ggrandfather was a child molester? That's a serious charge, and he isn't here to answer that accusation. I'm not saying anything about your family, just trying to make you see how serious it can be leveling a charge like you made against someone that is not here to defend themselves.

Mike

no gullum, i never said anyone was a murderer or anything of the sort, i was simply stating that gold makes people do things they would normally wouldnt do, or any kind of money for that matter, still happens today. i was just looking at the possibilities of what may have happened during the so called death confessions. you seem to take that pretty personal. this is a forum of opinions and suggetions, didnt know we couldnt look at other alternatives or question other ways things may have taken place. i am no serious searcher nor do i research as much as the most of you do. i just read and enjoy the stories. i only asked if it may have been possible. i dont see where you took this to that level of me accusing anyone of anything, other than i said i think(opinion) not saying he did. and if i was to accuse someones grandfather of something it wouldnt be on the internet. i dont hide for no reson.i am the kind of person who will say it to them...and im not in the safety. im a real person and not hiding behind anything. if you feel offended and think i was. you can have my address...lol.sarcastic humor i hope you get. have you watched the latest myth hunters.the secrets of the superstition mountains, if not you should, it has the mostly important searchers and authours of the books you most go buy saying that rumors were that dick holmes killed him or stole the gold. i cant remember which exact one, in fact i think the only one who said he didnt believe it was clay worst. in fact clay worst,dr glover,and few other are the commentators of the show.they are telling the story. no i dont beleive my info off of shows, but i do take into what they said as they are the ones you guys go back and forth on with the most valuable info. yes i did say i think holmes may have helped him, it does cross my mond. truth is waltz was already dying...who knows what happened. no actual proof of weather he did or didnt. it is kinda suspicious that he ended up with the gold since he was caught following waltz and almost killed, im sure waltz would have trusted anyone but him to tend to his ore. who knows. i had few family member recently die with pnuemonia and they are too sick to confess or give any directions. the stay crimped up in a ball, mostly unconcious for the last week then they go. had one about 38, my cousin, she actually went from just being sick into a coma then gone. and thats with todays technoligy. i honestly dont have a sgred of evidence for any of this treasure hunt. i have no intensions of ever really looking for it. i enjoy the thrill and the stories, i enjoy the posts and really enjoy how you all do your homework, including you as well as the rest. ive read your post for years. i dont take notes, i just like t put something out there to think about once in awhile. if i had any shred of evidence that he did and if he really did, the truth would hurt most of you cause it would change everything up. it would make a huge liar out of holmes so his accounts would really be discredited. is it possible holmes only searched where he suspected waltz going in from following him the time he got caught. does anyone have any proof of where holmes was caught when waltz backtrailed and caught him following him. where he supposedly told him he would kill him if he followed him again. its only logical to go back that way if thats the way you followed him thinking he was headed to the mine. thank you for your input gullum. as always i will always enjoy your post and your research. dont take things the wrong way. im just throwing the thought out there to see if anyone else has ever suspected that. let me ask you this gullum, do you think holmes was a theif im not saying he was but why would he follow him to find the mine if he wast going to steal some of the gold had he found it. he doesnt know if it was a hidden mine or an actual claim. so why would you be sneaky and follow someone to their gold mine if not with intintions to go back and take some im watching the show again. its kinda interesting. also saw the show last night on the mojave ship. anyways..thanks for you reply and gd luck with your searches and a gd new yr to ya. dr glover just stated on national tv that dick had followed holmes before, and that waltz took a turn for the worst, that julia went for help and saw holme outside, that she asked him to watch him while she went for help, said he was ther for over an hour alone, when julia got back, holmes and the ore was gone. if julia knew about the ore, why would sheleave him alone with him and the gold. just alot dont add up. ron feldman just ststed that he thinks holmes stole it as he was dying, tom kollenborn just stated when it comes to gold people will lie..in fact the only one claiming that dick was honest was clay worsts. 48lbs of gold they said was there. not everyone is criminals or theives. but back in them days im sure itwasa little harder to survive.


john

 

[gublube]

just keep in mind that the show is narrated by dr gover,ron feldman,and clay worst,also tom kollenborn. they are all on the show telling the story. although in some points they have a different opinion, mostly on the way holmes ended up with the ore.

john

 

[gollum]

gublube,

Its not that I take it personally. I have just seen it waaaaaay too many times, that without ANY SHRED OF EVIDENCE, someone chimes in ascribing all sorts of nefarious motives to a person they did not know, or even knew anybody that knew the person. Its not just you I promise. I have seen the same thing about Jacob Waltz, Travis Tumlinson, Doc Noss, Willie Douthit, Oren Swearingen, Chuck Kenworthy, and on and on and on. THAT is what pisses me off.

STICK TO THE FACTS! If somebody at the time of Waltz' Death, thought that Holmes had murdered him, that's one thing. But to come along 125 years later and throw that out there is rude and slanderous. If Holmes was my Great Grandfather, and someone walked up to me and accused him of murdering Waltz, I'd hit them with so many lefts, they'd be begging me for a right!

The last thing I will say on the matter is, Go and meet Clay Worst. Nice guy and avid Dutch Hunter. He was very close to the Holmes Family. Tell him you think Dick Holmes murdered Waltz. You might just get an earfull. HAHAHA

All that said, yes, this is a great place for the free discussion if ideas. Every road should should be looked at. If you are a Dutch Hunter, then it doesn't matter how Holmes got the ore. If you are an armchair academician, then it might. For someone who wants to find the Lost Dutchman, then many of the little details don't mean anything. There are several aspects of the story that can NEVER be known (unless some new documents or family history is released). Did Waltz give Holmes the ore or did he steal it? I don't care. The ONLY thing that matters to me is that Holmes actually had $4,000 worth of very rich gold ore. True or False? TRUE. Is the story about Waltz sending Rhiney to his place to dig out a can of gold to get the money to give to Julia Thomas for her Soda Fountain true? I don't care. All I care about is did Waltz really loan Julia Thomas the money to buy the Soda Fountain? Yes he did. For a man that lived as meagerly as Waltz did, how in the **** did he get enough money to pay off Julia's $2000 Soda Fountain and still leave $4000 for Holmes?

When I am bored, I look into the minutiae, but those aspects of the story hold little value to me. I only care about the parts that could absolutely prove or disprove the idea of Waltz having a rich gold mine in the Supers. The little stuff that can never be proven one way or the other will forever be beaten to death over and over on forums, in books/magazines, and in discussion groups. As Jim Hatt once told me, "Don't care what anybody else thinks. Doesn't matter whether they believe or not. YOU research the story until YOU reach a point of believing or not believing. If YOU believe, then put on your boots and go look for it. If you don't believe, then move on to the next story. Don't waste your time arguing s*** that doesn't help you find the gold!"

Don't get me wrong John, it doesn't mean anything to me personally if you want to ride that road till the dead end as to whether or not Holmes murdered Waltz. It is a question to which there will never be an answer. I just keep seeing people coming in and making defamatory accusations about different people without any evidence to back up those accusations. Your post just happened to be the straw that broke this camel's back. HAHAHA Nothing personal.

Mike

 

[gollum]

One more thing................. just because the show was narrated by Tom Glover, and had interviews with Tom K, Clay Worst, Ron Feldman, and others doesn't necessarily mean that's what they think. Post film editing can COMPLETELY change the meaning of a statement made by someone on tape. I advise asking those folks how they feel about the way their ideas were presented in the final product. Many times, producers edit things to add to a certain viewpoint, and not care about the intent of the interviewee.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

gublube,

Its not that I take it personally. I have just seen it waaaaaay too many times, that without ANY SHRED OF EVIDENCE, someone chimes in ascribing all sorts of nefarious motives to a person they did not know, or even knew anybody that knew the person. Its not just you I promise. I have seen the same thing about Jacob Waltz, Travis Tumlinson, Doc Noss, Willie Douthit, Oren Swearingen, Chuck Kenworthy, and on and on and on. THAT is what pisses me off.

STICK TO THE FACTS! If somebody at the time of Waltz' Death, thought that Holmes had murdered him, that's one thing. But to come along 125 years later and throw that out there is rude and slanderous. If Holmes was my Great Grandfather, and someone walked up to me and accused him of murdering Waltz, I'd hit them with so many lefts, they'd be begging me for a right!

The last thing I will say on the matter is, Go and meet Clay Worst. Nice guy and avid Dutch Hunter. He was very close to the Holmes Family. Tell him you think Dick Holmes murdered Waltz. You might just get an earfull. HAHAHA

All that said, yes, this is a great place for the free discussion if ideas. Every road should should be looked at. If you are a Dutch Hunter, then it doesn't matter how Holmes got the ore. If you are an armchair academician, then it might. For someone who wants to find the Lost Dutchman, then many of the little details don't mean anything. There are several aspects of the story that can NEVER be known (unless some new documents or family history is released). Did Waltz give Holmes the ore or did he steal it? I don't care. The ONLY thing that matters to me is that Holmes actually had $4,000 worth of very rich gold ore. True or False? TRUE. Is the story about Waltz sending Rhiney to his place to dig out a can of gold to get the money to give to Julia Thomas for her Soda Fountain true? I don't care. All I care about is did Waltz really loan Julia Thomas the money to buy the Soda Fountain? Yes he did. For a man that lived as meagerly as Waltz did, how in the **** did he get enough money to pay off Julia's $2000 Soda Fountain and still leave $4000 for Holmes?

When I am bored, I look into the minutiae, but those aspects of the story hold little value to me. I only care about the parts that could absolutely prove or disprove the idea of Waltz having a rich gold mine in the Supers.

Please define 'in the supers'

The little stuff that can never be proven one way or the other will forever be beaten to death over and over on forums, in books/magazines, and in discussion groups. As Jim Hatt once told me, "Don't care what anybody else thinks. Doesn't matter whether they believe or not. YOU research the story until YOU reach a point of believing or not believing. If YOU believe, then put on your boots and go look for it. If you don't believe, then move on to the next story. Don't waste your time arguing s*** that doesn't help you find the gold!"

Don't get me wrong John, it doesn't mean anything to me personally if you want to ride that road till the dead end as to whether or not Holmes murdered Waltz. It is a question to which there will never be an answer. I just keep seeing people coming in and making defamatory accusations about different people without any evidence to back up those accusations. Your post just happened to be the straw that broke this camel's back. HAHAHA Nothing personal.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Superstition Mountains

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Superstition Mountains

Mike

Right. Sure. But on what map at what date? And in what relation to Tonto and all the Federal lines of late?

 

[gollum]

I am talking about the Superstition Mountains in general. From Goldfield to Globe, and from the Salt River to Queen Creek. Most people don't make a big distinction between Tonto and SMWA. The area encompassed in my description is generally referred to as the Superstitions.

Mike

 

[deducer]

One more thing................. just because the show was narrated by Tom Glover, and had interviews with Tom K, Clay Worst, Ron Feldman, and others doesn't necessarily mean that's what they think. Post film editing can COMPLETELY change the meaning of a statement made by someone on tape. I advise asking those folks how they feel about the way their ideas were presented in the final product. Many times, producers edit things to add to a certain viewpoint, and not care about the intent of the interviewee.

Mike

They primarily edit to time constraints. 43 minutes for an "hour" program (this used to be 48 in the late 80's). So whatever fits best in that amount of time with the least effort is what "works" for them.

They also try to edit to a "cliffhanger' prior to each break. This has become pretty typical for docudramas on the HC, H2, DSC, etc.

Rarely do TV producers actually care about content; they go by "good enough," which is why we saw the Wolter episode wrap up in a rather shoddy fashion.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

You didn't have to type so much

I am talking about the Superstition Mountains in general. From Goldfield to Globe, and from the Salt River to Queen Creek. Most people don't make a big distinction between Tonto and SMWA. The area encompassed in my description is generally referred to as the Superstitions.

Mike

OK fine Pacific to Atlantic.

 

[gollum]

OK fine Pacific to Atlantic.

Well, lets see, you didn't seem to understand the area I was referring to since you posted twice trying to get me to explain the area I meant. I typed JUST ENOUGH to explain to anybody concerned what most people refer to as "The Supers". If you look at a map and find Goldfield, then look east and find Globe, you have found the East-West Borders of what I referred to. Then you find the Salt River, and on South to Queen Creek, you have found the North-South Borders.

Mike

 

[froggy]

OK Gollum,
So that's where the LDM is...
Thanks for the help...