Wally Hesse and "Caverna de Oro"-Source needed

[Randy Bradford]

I have a copy of a magazine article by Wally Hesse entitled "Caverna de Oro." He describes a presumed Aztec treasure hidden in the Capitan Mountains of New Mexico.I have the article, but no clue on sourcing material...namely what magazine it was published in or what the publication date was. I beleive it may have been published in a magazine called "The Treasure Hunter," but I cannot be sure. Does anyone have access to the source of this that can provide clarity for citation purposes? Name of magazine and publication date would be great, publishing company would be a bonus as well.

 

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[Mackaydon]

If he's the same guy I think he is, he was in the Roswell area in the late 70s and in the Ruidoso area in the mid-80s.
You may wish to inquire at the reference desk at the Ruidoso public library--or the one in Roswell.
Don.......
PS: A few years ago, treasurenet.com had a thread going about another (?) Carerna de Oro in Colorado.
Don.....

 

[John_Arizona]

Not what you were looking for, but it can help

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/colorado/113249-la-caverna-del-oro.html

La Caverna del Oro Hidden Treasure, Colorado Treasure

 

[Cubfan64]

This doesn't help much either, but maybe you can contact the person who posted it...

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...ends-transported-aztec-gold-3.html#post857614

 

[Randy Bradford]

Actually CubFan, I found all of those threads poking around yesterday but having them in this thread makes them much easier to return to so thank you.

I've actually started hammering out pages of my Montezuma treasure manuscript and I'm working hard to site source material, hence wanting to know such things about the Hesse article. I plan on reading and responding to those threads when I have time and materials to do so. Right now Im sitting in an airport on a lap top without most of my research handy.

One of my avenues of approach in my book is a criticism of how Montezuma has been treated by treasure writers, and an overall indictment of the things that treasure writers have done that reflects such poor scholarship: Plagiarism, failure to properly cite source material, adding dialogue, adding details, inventing dialogue, attribution of things like pictures with no credible trail of province, abuse of pen names by citing one's self. My book strives to undo much of these things by not only addressing these, but making up for them wherever possible. Research is hard, working back through someone else's work in a desperate attempt to piece together where they got their information is even harder.

To those interested, I hope to have the manuscript completed and edited by the end of August...keep your fingers crossed for me.

 

[Crow]

Hello Randy

I admire your attempt at a very complex subject. And I have no doubt many previous books on the subject are full of errors and crap. However I think you will do your book and research more justice if your let your research do the talking and not the denigration of other books that have gone before.

Books I have seen that went down that path all were seen as egocentric theories regardless of thier content. One egocentric tendency is denegrate previous theories. It is egocentric defense mechanism. Their theories crap therefore mine must be right mentality? People generally see that rather the content you want to present, thus defecting attention away from your content. If I was a publisher the first word that would come into my head is crank?

A good theory and book does not need to go down that path at all. let your research and cited research and content sell your theory for you my friend.

Crow

 

[Randy Bradford]

Crow, appreciate the feedback and the encouragement, sometimes I think what I'm working on is sorta silly and pointless but at the end of the day it's interesting so I plug away. I've finally hammered out the first dozen or so pages which is a huge step forward since this is a project I've had on my mind for a decade.

My goal in writing the book has always been to collect and preserve stories first and foremost. I also wanted to criticly approach those stories in their printed form and get a sense of how they evolved, how they impact communities and people, how they endure, and what evidences leads some to think one story is better than another.

I've actually been somewhat disappointed by the limited amoutn of information on most sites. My goal is to preserve folklore and frankly there is little to preserve hence my frustration with authors that don't share their sources. These aren't "hidden" sources mind you, these are simply lazy scholars who have not felt compelled to adhere to even a modicum of schoarly, academic or authorship protocols. For me, this is almost a stoy in itself and seeing how the types of writing have evolved has been an intersting journey.

Ultimately my goal isn't to prove a location, though I fear it might be implied. The problem is I have a ton of information on a few sites and very little information on a ton of other sites. My emphasis on certain locations isn't about my bias, but the simple reality that not much has been written (that I've found thus far) on many of the locations I talk about. The state of Colorado will be covered in less than 10 pages...Utah will probably have 5 times that much. Not because I beleive it's in Utah, but because that's where the paper trail is the deepest.

Thanks again for the input and I'll kep you posted on progress...

 

[Not Peralta]

Randy Bradford, Its great to see someone else talking about Montezuma's treasure. you said the paper trail, how about just the trail, and then on to the treasure. have you ever been up and down the length of the Colorado river. have you ever done research or talked to the native tribes that have lived on the river. this is just an opinion, but you might want to bring your investigation just a little farther
south from Utah on the Colorado river. just trying to help. np

 

[Randy Bradford]

Not Peralta, time and resoruces prevent that, though I have done my best to follow the written record where available. One of the things with folklore, even among the tribes of late, is that time brings to pass a fading of ideas. But you have reminded me thee is one important thing I need to do: Better udnerstand the crossing of the Colorado in relation to the grand canyon. Thanks for putting a bee in my bonnet, been putting that off a while...

Incidentally, I think I know what you're talkign to...havea whole chapter in mind for jsut that location.

 

[gollum]

Randy,

A group as large as would have been necessary to carry all that gold, food, and gear would have not strayed far from a good (read large) water source. I have said for a looong time, that Montezuma's Gold only had one route to travel. Enemies to the South. Cortez and enemies to the East. Ocean to the West. In order to stay near water, they would have had to travel to the coast, then North. This brings them to the Colorado. Follow that to the Grand Canyon. Somewhere in there, go into the North Rim Area Mountains.

In my mind, the only question is whether they stayed in that area or stayed temporarily then moved on. I am positive they were in the North Rim GC Area for a while, based on some finds made in the 1980s. I have been to the place that was described to me, and it matches exactly the story I was told.

Good Luck with the book - Mike

 

[Crow]

Randy I do not envy your task as it is a long and some times thankless one.

But the honest intention to get at the truth is as said before is very admirable. As many I dare say will tell you on this website will say many books of various treasure stories were written as entertainment value rather than an academic paper. I suppose you are in a conundrum which way your book should go? I confess I know I would not know writing such a book.

Dealing with legends and folklore is hard because the sources of such stories are hardly ever known. Academic papers have their uses of course. However many have sourced statement believed to be fact and write it in a clinical manner, but provide little entertainment value.

Like the joke women say of us men reading assembly instructs right. Its only when we are stuck we actually read the instructions because they are always painful to read. I suppose it comes down you deciding weather you want and academic paper or a book of the stories of folklore.

I understand your distaste for such books rife with plagiarism other poor researched stories. Treasure legends became popular from the 1930's that made people dream of treasure and hack writers saw treasure in the pockets of dreamers

By the 1950s UFO stories became popular and most of the hack writers moved on. In 60's witchcraft and supernatural, then by the 1980s it conspiracy theories alien abductions by late 1900s it davinci code books. Hack authors and publisher ride the wave of interest in what sells. For me I still love em all even if most of them are full of crap because most of all books should inspire people to think what if....

And old friend of mine a Cambridge university professor wrote a book on treasure legends, Many years ago. At the time I hung off his book word for words. It inspired me as well as others my own research into treasure legends. Years later looking at the book I can point out many factual errors. A book is only as good as information obtained at the time. I made an attempt to write a book once and I faced the same problem of information I had obtained in the start of the book became obsolete by the end of my book as new information flowed in. In fact the rate of the flow of information will always make my book obsolete.

You have an interesting and complex topic to deal with and dare say necessity will force to you compromise especially dealing with folklore type stories. And I wish every success with your book.

Please keep us posted on your progress

Crow

 

[Randy Bradford]

Mike, you always are good for some input, one jsut has to be very patient. There's also the possibility they stayed by the coast and traveled North up a river...just not the river everyone supposes.

Mike, wish you ahd done that Montezuma Treasure page on your website.

I plan to have a chapter on the Smith Mummy Cave too as I think it's important, though there is some information I've been shared privately that I'm not at liberty to share....

Truth be told, ery little of what will be in the book isn't available to the public provided they are patient, resourceful and have the time and patence to track stuff down.

 

[Crow]

Hello Randy.

Ya might want to check this article out. Sacramento Daily Union Volume 57 , number 104, 22 June 1887. Aztec Mummies.






It also gives its source the San francisco Bulliten.

Crow

[h=2][/h]

 

[doc-d]

How many amazing American discoveries have disappeared into the Smithsonian……….never to see the light of day, nor to testify to the truth…..

 

[Springfield]

Nice find, Crow. Not far from the alleged newspaper discovery site, just east of Texas Canyon on I-10 in AZ, is, of course, The Thing. Since I paid my admission fee many years ago, I am still bound by my personal pledge not to reveal the secret, even though the mystery can be quickly solved via Google (God's gift to mankind and our personal Savior de jour - until something better comes by).



Re rivers, the Gila is the king of secrets, IMO. Of course, the Colorado is on the short list. The greatest secrets of North America may well rest in the Grand Canyon, the April 5, 1909 Phoenix Gazette article notwithstanding. Anyone who has spent extended time wandering its remote side canyons - away from Bright Angel Trail - knows that.

 

[Crow]

Springfeild absolutely love it!!!!!!!!!!!

For me it symbolizes classic Americana regardless if its real or not. I'd definitely pay a buck to see it. Yep the signs suck ya in ya have to know pure marketing genius.

They bring back memories of being on what a real a road trip was like with the old parents stopping at the these curious Mom and Pop places was a magical experience. It really made traveling back then interesting. The big things strange things. Hell I could get buzz just posting a whole topic about different road side attractions that show cased to the world Mom and Pop entrepreneurship which the world held in awe and copied....Australia copied them also Big banana pineapple and little mom and Pop museums ya miss in blink of an eye.

Sadly today the kids are too busy with i pads to even notice anymore as the new highways are long soulless stretches of empty thoughts. It Brings me back to a time when mom and pop had a chance Before all the franchises and large corporations came along. A time when road side diner were real dinners. old railway cars converted into roadside dinners. And every one thought if they worked hard they could win and live the dream?? It was a time when the world was inspired to be America.

Little mom and Pop museums told you a story of each item with such a passion that you lose the day talking to them....and not as bored academic looking down his nose at you we have today expecting you to bow in his presence.

Sadly these places are becoming rarer and rarer these days.

Thanks for the nostalgia Springfeild

Now I have the urge to drive an big old Chevy down route 66

Crow