US forest land

[Clay Diggins]

Yeah Frank.

Ok, fine. But I notice the conspicuous absence of any prohibition on building houses, aircraft hangars or pools in that text. Ie.: they have not "exercised their control" to prohibit building houses, aircraft hangars or pools. Therefore I see nothing there that would pertain to the question at hand, as to whether or not building houses, aircraft hangars or pools is a no-no, or "requires permission/authorization", at NFS. No more so than I would think that I need "permission/authority" to metal detect there, etc....

really

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Yeah Frank.

Ok, fine. But I notice the conspicuous absence of any prohibition on building houses, aircraft hangars or pools in that text. Ie.: they have not "exercised their control" to prohibit building houses, aircraft hangars or pools. Therefore I see nothing there that would pertain to the question at hand, as to whether or not building houses, aircraft hangars or pools is a no-no, or "requires permission/authorization", at NFS. No more so than I would think that I need "permission/authority" to metal detect there, etc....

really

This is the oft-cited come-back, for issues of "lack of prohibition". It goes kind of like what you're saying: nothing that *specifically* prohibits placing razer blades on the pitchers mound. Or throwing water balloons at the 3rd baseman, etc....

To which I would answer: There *has* to be rules addressing such things as those, and also the building of aircraft hangers in the NFS, etc... Sure, maybe not *specific*, but certainly it would require a "building permit" to erect any structures. And certainly there is something to forbid planting land-mines, throwing projectiles at people, etc.... Even if not "specific", it is there in some form or fashion.

To which you would say "Aha! Well SO TOO is there general catch-all wording that can be construed to forbid detecting!"

To which I would agree They can say it hurts the grass, or constitutes "removing and harvesting", or affects cultural heritage, or violates lost & found laws, etc... Sure. To which I would answer: Then they're more-than-welcome to come alert me to that opinion of theirs.

Because if you or I have to start to assume that those such things by necessity mean "no detecting", then that's the day that you and I might as well give it up now. At all public land across the entire USA. Because I gaurantee you that such verbage exists on every single speck of public land. Laws about altering, defacing, taking, removing, etc.... So give it up now and forget all public land.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

also Clay: I notice an inherent function of your examples of "building an aircraft hanger, swim pools, houses". It's the same implicit necessity of my planting razer blades and throwing water balloons at people. What is the common denominator of all those examples? : The lack of innocuousness harmless-ness. In each case, they are notable changes, or obvious "harm". Not at all innocuous harmless things. Right ?

So in essence, in order to apply your analogy to md'ing, we have to start with the assumption that md'ing = inherently harmful, bad, obstructive, objectionable, etc.... If all those premises are true, then everything else you're saying DOES logically follow. Then yes, by all means, ask and grovel away at each kiosk you come to.

But since when is that a given premise? Why do you think of md'ing in that light ? I happen to believe that md'ing is = harmless, innocuous, beneficial, nutritious, etc......

 

[golddigger65]

Just a little information I received from our local Forest Service.
I asked if I could look at the map on the wall behind the counter. I was asked for what purpose, I stated that I was looking for information on 2 towns that existed in the late 1800's and I wanted to visit the site. Was told no we allow no one to look closely at that map and if we catch you at the site we will arrest and prosecute you for criminal trespass.
One more issue, I was repairing a faucet at a remote spring so I could obtain some water to drink, someone had broken it and I had the tools to fix it. Along comes a ranger and said if I did not leave NOW I would be arrested for tampering with forest service property.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....I stated that I was looking for information on 2 towns that existed in the late 1800's and I wanted to visit the site. Was told no we allow no one to look closely at that map and if we catch you at the site we will arrest and prosecute you for criminal trespass.....

And you didn't even mention metal detecting as your purpose ? Just ".... to look/visit " ? Wow. Then is it actually true that this part of the forest is off-limits to actually even simply standing there ? If so, then they had every right to say that, I suppose. Is there anything in actual laws there that state that those particular spots are off-limits to the mere presence of humans altogether ?

 

[Nugs Bunny]

also Clay: I notice an inherent function of your examples of "building an aircraft hanger, swim pools, houses". It's the same implicit necessity of my planting razer blades and throwing water balloons at people. What is the common denominator of all those examples? : The lack of innocuousness harmless-ness. In each case, they are notable changes, or obvious "harm". Not at all innocuous harmless things. Right ?

So in essence, in order to apply your analogy to md'ing, we have to start with the assumption that md'ing = inherently harmful, bad, obstructive, objectionable, etc.... If all those premises are true, then everything else you're saying DOES logically follow. Then yes, by all means, ask and grovel away at each kiosk you come to.

But since when is that a given premise? Why do you think of md'ing in that light ? I happen to believe that md'ing is = harmless, innocuous, beneficial, nutritious, etc......

Tom that analogy cannot be applied to metal detecting. The reason why is because detecting is permitted unless otherwise prohibited according to USFS policy. Each district and each forest within each district may have restrictions or complete prohibitions. Because there is an expressed allowance that states it's permitted unless otherwise prohibited it's a null argument.

As far as building a house on NFS land... some folks may want to do a little more research. It took me less than a few minutes to find the section on Recreational Residence Special Use Permits. And yes Tom... I do expect an invite once you finish the pool!

USDA Forest Service - Caring for the land and serving people.

Special Uses–Recreation Residence

CABIN USER FEE FAIRNESS ACT OF 2000 (CUFFA)

• CUFFA Executive Summary (PDF)

RECREATION RESIDENCE DIRECTION

• Recreation Residence Direction - FSH 2709.11 (09/17/2008) (PDF)

RECREATION RESIDENCE PROGRAM

• Fee Q&A (PDF)
• Recreation Residence CY2013 Billing Cycle Q&A (PDF)
• A Guide to Maintaining the Historic Character of Your Forest Service Recreation Residence (PDF)

Cabins in the Woods - National Forest Homeowners
Cabins in the Woods

What Are Cabins?
The particular type of cabin relevant to National Forest Homeowners is a cabin located on USDA Forest Service land. It is allowed to exist by a special use permit under the USFS Recreation Residence Program. Currently, those permits are issued for no more than 20 years at a time.
These are not leases; they are permits, with fewer rights than a lease. They are not 99 year leases, but are limited in term. The owner of a cabin only owns the cabin, which is personal property, and only has the rights to the underlying land that the permit allows.
Most cabins are located on a "lot" designated by the Forest Service, but the rule is that the general public cannot be precluded from the use of the lot, so sometimes the use is stated as limited to the footprint of the cabin. There are many consequences arising out of this type of asset, and many of those are discussed in the other drop down menus in this section.

Click here to access the USFS Recreation Residence website.

http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/documents/Recreation_Residence_FSH_Direction.pdf

FSH 2709.11 - SPECIAL USES HANDBOOK CHAPTER 30 - FEE DETERMINATION

33.05 - Definitions

Cabin. A privately built and owned recreation residence that is authorized to use and occupy National Forest System land.
Recreation Residence. A privately owned, noncommercial residence located upon National Forest System lands and authorized by a recreation residence term special use permit. A recreation residence is maintained by the permit holder for personal, family, and guest use and enjoyment. A recreation residence shall not serve as a permanent residence.
Tract. An established location within a National Forest containing one or more cabins authorized in accordance with the recreation residence program.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

NFH Member Tracts - National Forest Homeowners

NFH Member Tracts
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As a volunteer-driven association with limited staff and resources, National Forest Homeowners must develop quick and efficient ways to communicate with individual cabin owners and to gather support and input when issues arise which need to be responded to quickly. These are some of the same reasons that local cabin owners organize into "tract associations," which may include all the cabins in a Forest Service tract or just convenient groups of cabins with shared concerns and interests. Member Tract associations have a formal relationship with NFH, for more information on Tract Membership, see the Member Tract Flyer.

Region 1 - Northern Region
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Priest Lake Permittees Association - Idaho Panhandle National Forest, Idaho
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Region 2 - Rocky Mountain Region
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Happy Top Summer Homes - Pike National Forest, Colorado

Herman Gulch Homeowners Association - Arapaho National Forest, Colorado

Homestake Valley Summer Tract - White River National Forest, Colorado

Brooklyn Lake - Medicine Bow National Forest, Wyoming
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Region 3 - Southwestern Region
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Columbine - Coronado National Forest, Arizona

Holy Ghost Canyon - Santa Fe National Forest, New Mexico
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Region 4 - Intermountain Region
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Thomas Canyon Cabin Owners Association, Inc. - Humboldt National Forest, California

Bridgeport Forest Homeowners Association - Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, Nevada

Kyle Canyon Summer Homes Association - Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, Nevada

Rainbow Canyon - Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, Nevada

Porter Fork - Wasatch-Cache National Forest, Utah
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Region 5 - Pacific Southwest Region
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Almanor Improvement Association - Lassen National Forest, California

Barton Flats Cabin Owners Association - San Bernardino National Forest, California​

Big Santa Anita Canyon Permittees Association - Angeles National Forest, California

Bridge Tract Cabin Owners Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Bumble Bee Summer Home Association - Stanislaus National Forest, California

Camp Mcclellan Improvement Association - Angeles National Forest, California

Camp Sierra Improvement Association - Sierra National Forest, California

Casa Loma Recreational Homeowners Association - Tahoe National Forest, CaliforniaClark Station MM - Tahoe National Forest, California

Crystal Crag Water & Development Association/Lake Mary - Inyo National Forest, California

East Lakeview Water Association - San Bernardino National Forest, California

East Shore Silver Lake Improvement Association - Inyo National Forest, California

East Silver Lake Improvement Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Echo Lakes Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Echo Summit Permittees Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Falls Tract - San Bernardino National Forest, California

Hume Lake - Sequoia National Forest, California

Huntington Lake - Sierra National Forest, California

Ice House Cyn - Angeles National Forest, California

June Lake Permittees Association - Inyo National Forest, California

Lake Alpine Improvement Association - Stanislaus National Forest, California

Lake Kirkwood Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Lakeview Water Improvement Tract - San Bernardino National Forest, California

Layman Association - Plumas National Forest, California

Lower Emerald Bay - Eldorado National Forest, California

Metcalf Cabin Owners Association - San Bernardino National Forest, California

Mt Laguna Improvement Association - Cleveland National Forest, California

Pine Creek Tract Improvement Association - Cleveland National Forest, California

Pinecrest Permittees Association - Stanislaus National Forest, California

Polique Canyon Association - San Bernardino National Forest, California

Prairie Creek Homeowners Association - Tahoe National Forest, California

Salt Creek Summer Homes - Shasta - Trinity National Forest, California

Santa Ana River Cabin Association - San Bernardino National Forest, California

Santa Lucia Improvement Association - Los Padres National Forest, California

Seven Pines Cabin Owners Association - Inyo National Forest, California

Silver Lake Homeowners Association - Lassen National Forest, California

Snowcrest Heights Improvement Association - Angeles National Forest, California

South Silver Lake Homeowners Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Spring Creek Tract Association, Inc. - Eldorado National Forest, California

Upper Truckee Tract Association - Eldorado National Forest, California

Whitney Portal - Inyo National Forest, California

Wrights Lake Summer Home Association - Eldorado National Forest, California​

Region 6 - Pacific Northwest Region
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Anthony Lakes Homeowners Assoc - Wallowa-Whitman National Forest, Oregon

Crescent Lake Homeowners Association - Deschutes National Forest, OregonDiamond Lake Homeowners Association - Umpqua National Forest, OregonLake Of The Woods - Fremont-Winema National Forest, Oregon

Marion Forks Summer Homes - Willamette National Forest, Oregon

Metolius River Forest Homeowners Association - Deschutes National Forest, Oregon

Odell Lake Homeowners Association - Deschutes National Forest, Oregon

Stahlman Summer Home Association - Willamette National Forest, Oregon

Upper Rogue River Cabinowners Association - Rogue River National Forest, Oregon

Chinook Pass - Wenatchee National Forest, Washington

Govt Mineral Springs Cabin Association - Gifford Pinchot National Forest, Washington

Lake Quinault - Olympic National Forest, Washington

Lake Wenatchee Summerhomes - Wenatchee National Forest, Washington

Rimrock Cabin Owners Association - Wenatchee National Forest, Washington

Teanaway Recreational Tract Association - Wenatchee National Forest, Washington

White River Recreation Association - Mt. Baker - Snoqualmie National Forest, Washington
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Region 8 - Southern Region
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Bear Creek Lake - Ozark-St. Francis National Forest, Arkansas
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Region 9 - Eastern Region
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East Mcvity Bay Summer Homes - Chippewa National Forest, Minnesota​