US forest land

[cooper36]

The law says that you can detect developed areas as long as they are not historical or are marked. My Question is would the side of the road where pull offs for hunters, fishermen ect. be considered to be a developed area? this is us Forrest Land. Thanks

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Yes, NFS land is ok to detect. In-so-far as you're not disturbing anything historic. I don't know about the part about needing to be "developed". That seems rather arbitrary. I mean, doh, if someone "steps off the trail", are they now on "un-developed" forest ? I mean, this seems like it can get rather silly, splitting hairs, etc.... If I was you, I'd just go. As long as you're not snooping in obvious historic sensitive monuments, you've fulfilled the intent of such things.

Also I notice you're from the east coast. There was a big semantics technicality discussion about NFS, on T'net, as it pertains to east versus west coast. Because someone (bless their little hearts), had found some rule from ONE PARTICULAR NFS location, where it turned out there was a specific prohibition. Not sure if it was *just* because there was something historic at *just* that one particular NFS, or what. But that opened up a can of worms of how some of the east coast NFS are of some sort of technical difference, that the giant vast swaths of nothing-ness on the west-coast.

Personally, I wouldn't worry myself about such things. If you have something printed out that says NFS is ok, that's gonna suffice. I highly doubt you have lawyers hiding behind trees, waiting to split hairs on east vs west coast, developed vs. undeveloped, historic vs new coin, and so forth. As long as you're not snooping in open archie pits, then you've fulfilled the intent of such things.

 

[cooper36]

Yea that is what I thought. There are some sites on the patch i want to hit that have signs I will be sure to stay away from them and cover my holes back after i am done.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

The law says that you can detect developed areas as long as they are not historical or are marked. My Question is would the side of the road where pull offs for hunters, fishermen ect. be considered to be a developed area? this is us Forrest Land. Thanks

You may want to check this out, it should answer most questions or doubts you have http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t.../448213-metal-detecting-national-forests.html

Keep in mind regulations can vary from one location to the next, ALWAYS check the regulations for each site you wish to detect. Good luck and happy digging!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You may want to check this out, it should answer most questions or doubts you have http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t.../448213-metal-detecting-national-forests.html

Keep in mind regulations can vary from one location to the next, ALWAYS check the regulations for each site you wish to detect. Good luck and happy digging!

ah yes, that was a good read thread But all this debate aside for a minute on:

a) "which side of the road you are on" or

b) "developed vs undeveloped" or "east coast versus west coast" {ie.: different TYPES of NFS land], and

c) "old coin versus new coin vs bullet" and

d) some NFS *might* have a distinct different rule for *just* that one spot of land........

Getting aside from all that, and just going by the fact that there's a specific allowance (forget all the fricken exceptions about what particular speck you're on, etc....), Can't a person just go by the "does anyone really care" test ? I mean, if someone's out in the middle of nowhere ...... then it seems like going and all of "seeking clarifications asking permissions and 'can I?" all the time, is only going to end up in .... eventually .... someone removing that allowance, and just making it simple by inventing a "no detecting" rule to address this "pressing issue".

Sure, avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments. But beyond that, I think we md'rs make it much to difficult for ourselves. Especially when finding a specific allowance, and STILL wanting to worry ourselves to death all the time.

 

[G-bone]

I'm really leaning toward asking for forgiveness vs. asking for permission.
Cuz you know what they will say if you ask first....
I have a copy of that form printed and in my backpack already too, so I can pull it out if need be.

This is America - Enjoy your Forest - just don't go in it.

 

[cooper36]

i called three people. All in the nfs. Two didnt know the other pointed me to the thread above. I worked for the state for 11 years this is one of the grey lines to me as there are old homestead sites in the area they have signs i will stay away from them.it says (normally in developed areas) Just dont want to get a rookie warden that wants to make a name for him self while I am looking on pull offs that hunters use. There are no civil war sites or any historical sites here just the old homesteads. thanks for the info and the input. HH cooper

 

[Nugs Bunny]

ah yes, that was a good read thread

Can't a person just go by the "does anyone really care" test ? I mean, if someone's out in the middle of nowhere ...... then it seems like going and all of "seeking clarifications asking permissions and 'can I?" all the time, is only going to end up in .... eventually .... someone removing that allowance, and just making it simple by inventing a "no detecting" rule to address this "pressing issue".

Thanks Tom.

Why would anybody need to ask permission? Nobody can grant permission on NFS land anyway, there is a policy already in effect that we all must abide by... including the Rangers. NFS regulations are posted onsite and online and fairly easy to understand.

The regulations and policies are determined by a commission, proposals are made by agency resource specialists. The public may also submit proposals for various uses such as rights-of-way, land exchanges, and recreational events. USDA Forest Service - SOPA - Information

You can call the Ranger Station till the cows come home, they can't change the policy, they can submit a proposal. If you looked at the link above you have seen it's a lengthy process involving different departments. It's nothing like a City, State, or County park, NFS is Federal Land, so there is no worry about some lone wolf adding to the rule book all willy nilly.

East Coast vs West Coast...

NFS land in the East and West are the same EXCEPT in the West areas are open for mineral entry. In other words, you cannot file a mining claim East of the Mississippi on NFS land. That can also be said about any public land, land that is mined in the East is leased or privately owned.

Old coin vs new coin vs bullet...

"Metal detecting... can also be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental metallic items of little historical value."

"In some cases, historically significant coins and other metallic artifacts may be part of an historical-period archaeological site, in which case they would be considered archaeological resources and are protected under law." http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...84349003,d.cWc

NFS *might* have a distinct different rule for *just* that one spot of land...

"Metal detectors may be used on public land in areas that do not contain or would not reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical resources...
Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are open to recreational metal detecting unless there are archaeological or historical resources present. In such cases, forest supervisors are authorized to close the area to metal detecting and the closure would be posted at the site. Such closure notices are not always practical in undeveloped areas, and federal agencies have not identified every archaeological site on public lands."

"It is possible; therefore, that you may encounter such archaeological remains that have not yet been documented or an area that is not closed even though it does indeed contain such remains. Archaeological remains on public land are protected under law. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them undisturbed and notify a FS office." http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...84349003,d.cWc

"Can't a person just go by the "does anyone really care" test?"

You better watch out for the Ranger Yogi!

 

[Nugs Bunny]

I'm really leaning toward asking for forgiveness vs. asking for permission.
Cuz you know what they will say if you ask first....
I have a copy of that form printed and in my backpack already too, so I can pull it out if need be.

This is America - Enjoy your Forest - just don't go in it.

Leopold Butters Stotch!!! You are soooo grounded mister!!!

 

[Clay Diggins]

Forest lands in the east and the west are not the same. They were created under different laws and have different regulations. The only thing the two types of forest have in common is they are managed by the same executive agency - the Forest Service.

_________________

Western forests are "proclaimed" by Congress under the Organic Act of 1897. The western Organic Act forests are public lands set aside for water and timber management.

These forest lands remain public. The public has full rights to the ordinary use of these public lands as long as they have not been set aside, by law, for a specific use. Those use rights includes metal detecting. The specific uses that might prevent you from legally detecting include areas that are designated as historic or archaeological sites and mining claims.

Some research is needed before you can determine if you have a right to metal detect a particular area of a western forest but all the information you need to determine that is freely available. All the Organic Forests have the same regulations by law.

_________________

Eastern Forests are "designated" for purchase by Congress under the Weeks Act of 1911. The Weeks Act Forests are defined areas of private land designated by Congress as potential purchase areas.

These "Purchase Units", as they are officially called (not forests), are created for the purpose of timber restoration on wasted private timber lands. The Weeks Act purchase units are only called forests for convenience. Most of each designated purchase unit "forest" is still in private hands and is only eligible for purchase by the United States should the property owners decide to sell. When the land is purchased by the United States the seller is allowed, and often encouraged, to sell only some of the rights to the land. There are many active mines on eastern forest lands. These mines own the subsurface mineral estate and the Forest Service has to enable them to mine their deposits even though the surface rights are already owned by the United States and are considered a part of the forest.

As a consequence of the private lands that still exist throughout these purchase units and the limited rights purchased by the United States in the lands it does own there is no public "right" to detect or enjoy these "forests". They are specifically not public land and their management is based on a wide variety of access and use constraints that changes every few hundred feet in most cases.

The Forest manager is faced with a dilemma when asked if one can metal detect in an eastern Weeks Act forest. He can't have a stock answer for you. The still private lands in the purchase unit can't be detected and the already purchased lands have so many different reserved rights that describing the various areas that might be open to detecting can be a legal nightmare. Many Forest Service managers prefer to just say no. Since the Forest Service is entrusted with management of these non public lands they have a right to make local regulations based on their best judgement.

_________________

Two very different "Forests" created by entirely different laws with very different rights to access and use. The differences between the eastern and western forests are much greater than their similarities. In fact the only real similarity between the two types of forests is the management agency assigned to administer them - the Forest Service.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Clay, thanx for typing all that out. I'm glad I live on the west coast. And re.: east coast: although you say they have some element still of "private" in them, yet there is also some sort of cooperative with the govt., lest HOW ELSE can they attain an NFS over-sight ?

I've seen various legal arrangements here in CA too, where a private land gets bought out for water-district rights (for water-shed, to keep the rights to water that fills reservoirs down stream). Yet they turn around and lease it right back to the very same ranchers, for $1 per year. So ... does that make them "public" or "private" ? (not that I fret myself much over such minutias anyhow, but .....)

.... The Forest manager is faced with a dilemma when asked if one can metal detect in an eastern Weeks Act forest. He can't have a stock answer for you .... Many Forest Service managers prefer to just say no. Since the Forest Service is entrusted with management of these non public lands they have a right to make local regulations based on their best judgement.

Gee, why not ? Seems to me that laws are always written crystal clear, so that you and I are not subjected to whimsical arbitrary "safe" answers, eh ? Sounds like you're saying it's often up to "preferences" and "judgement", rather than black & white laws/rules. And as such, you're bound to get 3 different answers, from 3 different desk persons, depending on who you ask, their mood, how you phrase it, etc.... I will not subject myself to that Russian roulette.

 

[aa battery]

here in cali i was told nothing over 50 years old could be removed I then told the ranger that i could not leave. got the stink eye from him

 

[G-bone]

Leopold Butters Stotch!!! You are soooo grounded mister!!!


That's funny - I don't care who you are!

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Forest lands in the east and the west are not the same. They were created under different laws and have different regulations. The only thing the two types of forest have in common is they are managed by the same executive agency - the Forest Service.

_________________

Western forests are "proclaimed" by Congress under the Organic Act of 1897. The western Organic Act forests are public lands set aside for water and timber management.

These forest lands remain public. The public has full rights to the ordinary use of these public lands as long as they have not been set aside, by law, for a specific use. Those use rights includes metal detecting. The specific uses that might prevent you from legally detecting include areas that are designated as historic or archaeological sites and mining claims.

Some research is needed before you can determine if you have a right to metal detect a particular area of a western forest but all the information you need to determine that is freely available. All the Organic Forests have the same regulations by law.

_________________

Eastern Forests are "designated" for purchase by Congress under the Weeks Act of 1911. The Weeks Act Forests are defined areas of private land designated by Congress as potential purchase areas.

These "Purchase Units", as they are officially called (not forests), are created for the purpose of timber restoration on wasted private timber lands. The Weeks Act purchase units are only called forests for convenience. Most of each designated purchase unit "forest" is still in private hands and is only eligible for purchase by the United States should the property owners decide to sell. When the land is purchased by the United States the seller is allowed, and often encouraged, to sell only some of the rights to the land. There are many active mines on eastern forest lands. These mines own the subsurface mineral estate and the Forest Service has to enable them to mine their deposits even though the surface rights are already owned by the United States and are considered a part of the forest.

As a consequence of the private lands that still exist throughout these purchase units and the limited rights purchased by the United States in the lands it does own there is no public "right" to detect or enjoy these "forests". They are specifically not public land and their management is based on a wide variety of access and use constraints that changes every few hundred feet in most cases.

The Forest manager is faced with a dilemma when asked if one can metal detect in an eastern Weeks Act forest. He can't have a stock answer for you. The still private lands in the purchase unit can't be detected and the already purchased lands have so many different reserved rights that describing the various areas that might be open to detecting can be a legal nightmare. Many Forest Service managers prefer to just say no. Since the Forest Service is entrusted with management of these non public lands they have a right to make local regulations based on their best judgement.

_________________

Two very different "Forests" created by entirely different laws with very different rights to access and use. The differences between the eastern and western forests are much greater than their similarities. In fact the only real similarity between the two types of forests is the management agency assigned to administer them - the Forest Service.

Ok maybe I should have been more specific...

In regards to metal detecting the only difference between the two is land can be claimed in the West. The history and all the other information you posted has no bearing on the use of metal detectors.

There is NO distinction between Eastern or Western forests in the USFS regulations concerning detecting other than prospecting.

The only difference between East and West is the areas off limits to recreational detecting are open to prospecting with a detector if the land is open to mineral entry.

I'm aware of the differences of how they came to be, but this has no bearing on recreational metal detecting, the regulations vary slightly from forest to forest that is why I advised one to check the regulations for each specific area they intend to detect.


"It is Forest Service policy that the recreational use of metal detectors and the collection of rocks and mineral samples are allowed on the National Forests. Generally, most of the National Forests are open to recreational mineral and rock collecting, gold panning and prospecting using a metal detector. This low impact, casual activity usually does not require any authorization. On some eastern Forests gold panning does require a letter of authorization due to the high clay content of the soils. It is always wise to check with the local District Ranger if you have questions. Some wilderness areas are closed to gold panning and metal detecting.

Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental metallic items of little historical value.

Prospecting using a metal detector can be conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36 CFR 228A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non minerals- related recreation activity." http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...84349003,d.cWc

"Like all national forests, the Weeks Act national forests are managed by the U.S. Forest Service as working forests. A working forest, though, is more than just a vacation spot. A working forest means that the forest is being managed for many different uses and reasons. The Forest Service often works with nongovernment organizations, conservation and environmental groups, and private landowners to meet its varied and numerous management goals. The eastern national forests remain important sources of timber and nontimber forest products, including medicinal and floral plants like ginseng and galax. Coal, natural gas, and other mineral resources are also extracted from various national forests." Weeks Act Legacy - USFS History - Forest History Society

 

[Clay Diggins]

Ok maybe I should have been more specific...

In regards to metal detecting the only difference between the two is land can be claimed in the West. The history and all the other information you posted has no bearing on the use of metal detectors.

There is NO distinction between Eastern or Western forests in the USFS regulations concerning detecting other than prospecting. Each forest has specific regulations concerning metal detecting, compare those from the East with those from the West.

The only difference between East and West is the areas off limits to recreational detecting are open to prospecting with a detector if the land is open to mineral entry.

I'm aware of the differences of how they came to be, but this has no bearing on recreational metal detecting, the regulations vary slightly from forest to forest that is why I advised one to check the regulations for each specific area they intend to detect.


"It is Forest Service policy that the recreational use of metal detectors and the collection of rocks and mineral samples are allowed on the National Forests. Generally, most of the National Forests are open to recreational mineral and rock collecting, gold panning and prospecting using a metal detector. This low impact, casual activity usually does not require any authorization. On some eastern Forests gold panning does require a letter of authorization due to the high clay content of the soils. It is always wise to check with the local District Ranger if you have questions. Some wilderness areas are closed to gold panning and metal detecting.

Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental metallic items of little historical value.

Prospecting using a metal detector can be conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36 CFR 228A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non minerals- related recreation activity." http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...84349003,d.cWc

"Like all national forests, the Weeks Act national forests are managed by the U.S. Forest Service as working forests. A working forest, though, is more than just a vacation spot. A working forest means that the forest is being managed for many different uses and reasons. The Forest Service often works with nongovernment organizations, conservation and environmental groups, and private landowners to meet its varied and numerous management goals. The eastern national forests remain important sources of timber and nontimber forest products, including medicinal and floral plants like ginseng and galax. Coal, natural gas, and other mineral resources are also extracted from various national forests." Weeks Act Legacy - USFS History - Forest History Society

You are incorrect in your assumptions. You make the common mistake that Weeks Act Purchase Units are National Forests. They are only administered by the Forest Service. More research of the actual laws (Weeks Act and Organic Act) will clarify your error.

Looking to the executive land management agencies to interpret those laws will lead you astray. Those agencies are not legally responsible and can not be held accountable for their misleading statements. You will need to do some work to uncover the truth of the matter.

I am working on some rather complex maps for Land Matters that will finally reveal the facts of the matter for those who can't, or don't have the time, to do the research necessary to discover the facts.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

here in cali i was told nothing over 50 years old could be removed I then told the ranger that i could not leave. got the stink eye from him

Well now gee, aren't you glad you asked? Otherwise you "could have been arrested" .

And next ask him if it's "legal" to remove, harvest, and take things off NFS land. Despite ANY age of said- item. I'm sure he can find things that forbid that as well.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I am working on some rather complex maps for Land Matters that will finally reveal the facts of the matter for those who can't, or don't have the time, to do the research necessary to discover the facts.

Clay & bunny-nugs, excellent posts.

Clay: how are you planning on "revealing the facts of the matter" ? Your own research into what the law actually says ? Or research via asking bored desk clerks what their thoughts on the matter is ?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay & bunny-nugs, excellent posts.

Clay: how are you planning on "revealing the facts of the matter" ? Your own research into what the law actually says ? Or research via asking bored desk clerks what their thoughts on the matter is ?

Thanks for your interest Tom.

I spend most of my time educating others about land status. I make a living investigating, researching and making reports about land status. I donate half my time and funds to educating the public about land status. I donate my time to teach land law.

One of my many projects is to display land status on interactive maps. Many people don't know how to research land law and land status and many people don't have the time to do so even when they have the skills. I try to assist them by presenting the facts in a more easily understood form.

I am working on an interactive map of all the National Forest and Purchase Units actual boundaries and land status. This map will also display the lands that have already been purchased and the still private lands within the eastern Purchase Units. The map will change your perceptions of just what the eastern "forests" actually consist of as well as revealing the private lands still existing inside the those Purchase Units and the real proclaimed National Forest boundaries.

You won't have to ask bored know nothing agency reception desk employees for their opinions about forest land status anymore.

I'm not afraid to ask questions. I was raised with the belief that pursuing the truth would always provide a personal and societal benefit. I believe that those who educate themselves can prosper from the knowledge they gain.

You might want to check out some of my work. You won't have to talk to humans to get your questions answered, it's free to all who wish to learn and you can go there directly from this link:

Land Matters a Non Profit Educational Organization

 

[Nugs Bunny]

You are incorrect in your assumptions. You make the common mistake that Weeks Act Purchase Units are National Forests. They are only administered by the Forest Service. More research of the actual laws (Weeks Act and Organic Act) will clarify your error.

Looking to the executive land management agencies to interpret those laws will lead you astray. Those agencies are not legally responsible and can not be held accountable for their misleading statements. You will need to do some work to uncover the truth of the matter.

I am working on some rather complex maps for Land Matters that will finally reveal the facts of the matter for those who can't, or don't have the time, to do the research necessary to discover the facts.

I'm not mistaken... I said it doesn't matter where they are located in regards to metal detecting. I'm fully aware of the history of how the lands in the East were acquired. The Weeks Act - USFS History - Forest History Society

The National Forests in the East are managed by the USFS and the USDA, that's what on the signs, the rules and regulations are posted onsite and online.

"Welcome to the official Wayne National Forest website" Wayne National Forest - Home



Now lets compare recreational activities from several National Forests across the Country...

Clearwater National Forests, Idaho Nez Perce-Clearwater National Forests - Recreation
Ashley National Forest, northeastern Utah and Wyoming Ashley National Forest - Recreation
Cleveland National Forest, California Cleveland National Forest - Recreation
Sumter National Forest, South Carolina Francis Marion and Sumter National Forests - Recreation
Fremont and Winema National Forests, Oregon Fremont-Winema National Forest - Recreation
Monongahela National Forest, West Virginia Monongahela National Forest - Recreation
Wayne National Forest, Ohio Wayne National Forest - Recreation
And for good measure and extra credit... El Yunque, Puerto Rico El Yunque National Forest - Recreation

I don't see any difference between the East and West, I can camp at either, I can hike at either, I can have a picnic or whatever. Detecting is prohibited in areas and in some forests all together.

I think you misunderstood the point I was making to Tom, metal detecting is permitted on USFS land unless otherwise prohibited. A prohibition will be posted onsite and online, I've checked personally.

The difference between the Western forests is if the land is open to mineral entry then a loophole exists for prospecting with a detector. Whereas metal detecting is prohibited for recreational use, it is considered a legitimate means of prospecting for gold.

From a recreational standpoint there is no difference and that is what I was getting at. It doesn't matter how they came about, what matters is what is permitted. "Like all national forests, the Weeks Act national forests are managed by the U.S. Forest Service as working forests"

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'm not mistaken... I said it doesn't matter where they are located in regards to metal detecting.

I don't see any difference between the East and West, I can camp at either, I can hike at either, I can have a picnic or whatever. Detecting is prohibited in areas and in some forests all together.

I think you misunderstood the point I was making to Tom, metal detecting is permitted on USFS land unless otherwise prohibited. A prohibition will be posted onsite and online, I've checked personally.

The difference between the Western forests is if the land is open to mineral entry then a loophole exists for prospecting with a detector. Whereas metal detecting is prohibited for recreational use, it is considered a legitimate means of prospecting for gold.

From a recreational standpoint there is no difference and that is what I was getting at. It doesn't matter how they came about, what matters is what is permitted.

I did not misunderstand your point. As I stated, you are incorrect. The management of Public Lands is by uniform published regulations (CFR) and the management of acquired lands is local to the parcel and the relevant management agency. The fact that this difference is not commonly known is the basis of much misunderstanding about land status (and the ability to metal detect any particular portion of "forest" land). You are not unique in your misunderstanding.

We could go back and forth on this forever. You won't recognize the actual laws as having authority and I know that the Forest Service publications you offer as "proof" don't change those laws. So be it.

I will present the facts when my project is finished and then you can discuss the facts with yourself and determine what you wish to believe. I can't change your beliefs, I can only give you the tools to make an honest determination of the facts. That will be done on my own time schedule and you, as well as the general public, can use those tools or not when I make them available - your choice.