✅ SOLVED Unusual Civil War Bullet?

[Fullstock]

I found this fired bullet in a Union position, but I’ve also found Confederate items there as well. It’s pictured between a standard mini ball and a Sharps bullet for comparison. I can only see two rings on it and it has a solid base. Any ideas?

 

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[Jack873]

Looks like a Williams Cleaner Bullet.

Touch the Past: The Williams Patent Bullet

 

[Fullstock]

Looks like a Williams Cleaner Bullet.

Touch the Past: The Williams Patent Bullet

Thanks, but I don’t think so, the mark on the base is basically just a dimple, not big enough for a plunger.

 

[broken_detector]

It looks rifled , definitely doesn't look smooth bored.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Without accurate measurements it may not be easy to ID your bullet. Can you give us a diameter and length? It does look kind of like a Hazard for Colt revolving rifle as shown in the following link: 19th Century Bullet Collection - Tom Henrique

 

[fyrffytr1]

after looking at the Hazard bullet I don't think it is like the one you found. The bases are different.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Maybe a spencer carbine?
19th Century Bullet Collection - Tom Henrique

 

[broken_detector]

.44 caliber Ballard carbine?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I believe my friend Fyrffytr1's guess (he said "maybe") is correct. My first thought about the ID of Fullstock's find was a fired Spencer bullet, when I examined its profile, and also compared its (fired) diameter with the unfired .52 Sharps (unfired diameter .538") and unfired .58 Minie-bullet next-door (unfired diameter typically about .570"). For confirmation of it being a Spencer, I counted the number of rifling-groove marks which are visible on it (a half, two complete, and another half), which extrapolates to 6-groove rifling. That matches up with a .52 Spencer Rifle.

Sidenote:
I should also mention, only a Spencer cartridge will work in a Spencer Rifle... no other bullet can be shot from that kind of rifle. That fact is important to mention because I've got proof that a Sharps Rifle will fire any kind of bullet you can fit into its breech. See the photo below, which shows (from left to right) a US .58 Williams Regulation minie, a .58 Williams "Bore-Cleaner" bullet, and a CS .56 Richmond Sharps bullet, each of which were "stretched" by being fired through a .52 Sharps Rifle's 6-groove bore. I also own a fired CS .54 Gardner minie that is similarly "stretched" by having been fired through a .52 Sharps Rifle.

 

[DCMatt]

I believe my friend Fyrffytr1's guess (he said "maybe") is correct. My first thought about the ID of Fullstock's find was a fired Spencer bullet, when I examined its profile, and also compared its (fired) diameter with the unfired .52 Sharps (unfired diameter .538") and unfired .58 Minie-bullet next-door (unfired diameter typically about .570"). For confirmation of it being a Spencer, I counted the number of rifling-groove marks which are visible on it (a half, two complete, and another half), which extrapolates to 6-groove rifling. That matches up with a .52 Spencer Rifle.

Sidenote:
I should also mention, only a Spencer cartridge will work in a Spencer Rifle... no other bullet can be shot from that kind of rifle. That fact is important to mention because I've got proof that a Sharps Rifle will fire any kind of bullet you can fit into its breech. See the photo below, which shows (from left to right) a US .58 Williams Regulation minie, a .58 Williams "Bore-Cleaner" bullet, and a CS .56 Richmond Sharps bullet, each of which were "stretched" by being fired through a .52 Sharps Rifle's 6-groove bore. I also own a fired CS .54 Gardner minie that is similarly "stretched" by having been fired through a .52 Sharps Rifle.

Sorry to hijack this thread but I learned something today. I was not aware that you could fire loose rounds through a Sharps rifle by loading it similarly to a muzzle loading rifle (except from the breech). I'm curious now if there was any type of ramrod to pack the powder.

 

[Fullstock]

I believe my friend Fyrffytr1's guess (he said "maybe") is correct. My first thought about the ID of Fullstock's find was a fired Spencer bullet, when I examined its profile, and also compared its (fired) diameter with the unfired .52 Sharps (unfired diameter .538") and unfired .58 Minie-bullet next-door (unfired diameter typically about .570"). For confirmation of it being a Spencer, I counted the number of rifling-groove marks which are visible on it (a half, two complete, and another half), which extrapolates to 6-groove rifling. That matches up with a .52 Spencer Rifle.

Sidenote:
I should also mention, only a Spencer cartridge will work in a Spencer Rifle... no other bullet can be shot from that kind of rifle. That fact is important to mention because I've got proof that a Sharps Rifle will fire any kind of bullet you can fit into its breech. See the photo below, which shows (from left to right) a US .58 Williams Regulation minie, a .58 Williams "Bore-Cleaner" bullet, and a CS .56 Richmond Sharps bullet, each of which were "stretched" by being fired through a .52 Sharps Rifle's 6-groove bore. I also own a fired CS .54 Gardner minie that is similarly "stretched" by having been fired through a .52 Sharps Rifle.

As always, thank you for your thoughts Cannonballguy. I’ve found many Spencer bullets here in the a Shenandoah Valley, fired and dropped, but none that looked like this. Most importantly, I believe it’s larger than the other Spencer’s I’ve found, more in keeping with the .58 caliber mini ball.

 

[Fullstock]

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

DCMatt wrote:
> Sorry to hijack this thread but I learned something today. I was not aware that you could fire loose rounds through a Sharps rifle by loading it similarly to a muzzle loading rifle (except from the breech). I'm curious now if there was any type of ramrod to pack the powder.

Matt... your good manners are noteworthy... but in my opinion your curiosity/question, regarding loading other types of bullets into a .52 Sharps Rifle, is "relevant" to the discussion about identifying Fullstock's bullet-find.

Answering your curiosity:
> I'm curious now if there was any type of ramrod to pack the powder.

You could not muzzle-load a bullet whose diameter is .52" or larger (like the .54s and .58s I posted) into a .52 Sharps Rifle, because their diameter is too big to fit down through the muzzle, even if you were using a ramrod. Apparently, the .52 Sharps breech/chamber was big enough to accept a .58-caliber bullet.

Also apparently, the gunpowder did not need to be "packed" into the Sharps breech/chamber. As shown in the Thomas-&-Thomas books on civil war bullets... Sharps bullets, like minie-bullets, came with either a skin- or paper-cartridge. Apparently, you just dumped the powder into the Sharps breech.​

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Fullstock wrote:
> As always, thank you for your thoughts Cannonballguy. I’ve found many Spencer bullets here in the a Shenandoah Valley, fired and dropped, but none that looked like this. Most importantly, I believe it’s larger than the other Spencer’s I’ve found, more in keeping with the .58 caliber mini ball.

Fullstock, thanks very much for making and posting the additional photos, showing your mystery-bullet in the jaws of a digital-readout caliper, which say .58"-diameter and .98"-length. In your previous photos, your bullet looked smaller than the .58 minie beside it. Those measurements exclude it from having been fired out of a .52 Sharps Rifle. So now I'm wondering what fired it.

Your .58"-diameter measurement includes the rifling-ridges, whose thickness, plus the lead-oxide patina's thickness, add about .02 inch to the diameter of the bullet's main body. So, I'm thinking it was fired from a .56-caliber rifle. Also, your bullet has a solid base (no base-cavity), which indicates it was made for use in a Breechloader. The .56 Breechloader which jumps to my mind is a Colt Revolving Rifle. But that rifle has 7 rifling-grooves. Please examine your bullet and tell me whether it has 6 or 7 rifling-grooves on it.

If it has 7 grooves, your bullet MIGHT be a variety of Colt Revolving Rifle bullet. According to the Thomas-&-Thomas books on civil war bullets, Colt RR bullets were .98" long... which matches exactly with your mystery-bullet's length.​

 

[Fullstock]

Fullstock wrote:
>

As always, thank you for your thoughts Cannonballguy. I’ve found many Spencer bullets here in the a Shenandoah Valley, fired and dropped, but none that looked like this. Most importantly, I believe it’s larger than the other Spencer’s I’ve found, more in keeping with the .58 caliber mini ball.

Fullstock, thanks very much for making and posting the additional photos, showing your mystery-bullet in the jaws of a digital-readout caliper, which say .58"-diameter and .98"-length. In your previous photos, your bullet looked smaller than the .58 minie beside it. Those measurements exclude it from having been fired out of a .52 Sharps Rifle. So now I'm wondering what fired it.

Your .58"-diameter measurement includes the rifling-ridges, whose thickness, plus the lead-oxide patina's thickness, add about .02 inch to the diameter of the bullet's main body. So, I'm thinking it was fired from a .56-caliber rifle. Also, your bullet has a solid base (no base-cavity), which indicates it was made for use in a Breechloader. The .56 Breechloader which jumps to my mind is a Colt Revolving Rifle. But that rifle has 7 rifling-grooves. Please examine your bullet and tell me whether it has 6 or 7 rifling-grooves on it.

If it has 7 grooves, your bullet MIGHT be a variety of Colt Revolving Rifle bullet. According to the Thomas-&-Thomas books on civil war bullets, Colt RR bullets were .98" long... which matches exactly with your mystery-bullet's length.​

Thanks for taking a second look Cannonballguy, I just checked and it does indeed have seven grooves. If it is in fact a Colt revolving rifle bullet, it would be the first I’ve ever found here. I wonder what units in the Valley would have been armed with them?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

You're welcome, Fullstock. Now, on to your question.

> I wonder what units in the Valley would have been armed with them?

Reloading a muzzleloader is much more difficult to do when you're on a horse's back than when you are standing on the ground. So, a Repeating firearm was much more likely to be issued to a cavalryman than an infantryman. A Colt Revolving Rifle is kinda-sorta a repeater, because you can fire more than one shot from it without having to reload it for the next shot. Also... the Colt Revolving Rifle was mostly issued in the war's first 12 months, afterward being replaced by various metallic-cartridge repeating rifles/carbines which were finally becoming mass-produced, So, I recommend you narrow your research to armament records of yankee cavalry units which were in combat in the Shenandoah Valley in 1861-62.
​

 

[Fullstock]

You're welcome, Fullstock. Now, on to your question.

> I wonder what units in the Valley would have been armed with them?

Reloading a muzzleloader is much more difficult to do when you're on a horse's back than when you are standing on the ground. So, a Repeating firearm was much more likely to be issued to a cavalryman than an infantryman. A Colt Revolving Rifle is kinda-sorta a repeater, because you can fire more than one shot from it without having to reload it for the next shot. Also... the Colt Revolving Rifle was mostly issued in the war's first 12 months, afterward being replaced by various metallic-cartridge repeating rifles/carbines which were finally becoming mass-produced, So, I recommend you narrow your research to armament records of yankee cavalry units which were in combat in the Shenandoah Valley in 1861-62.
​

Thank you and that makes perfect sense, this spot would have been occupied early War.