U.S. officials bust Florida scuba diver for stealing Red Sea artifacts

What about international salvage laws. If something is abandoned and no one makes a claim on it after x amount of years it should belong to whomever makes an effort to retrive it. The saudis have enough of our money to search and retive all the ship wreck sites in thier waters and could open a museum with ease. Again the little guy gets crushed by the government. Sad.
 

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All I have to say is "KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT".
There is NO doubt that the FEDS keep track of some things being posted on this forum and most other forums on the net as well.
The ARABS could givre a SH- what is recovered in the Red Sea. This was just something someone came up with in the Department to justify their job and maybe get a $0.10 an hour raise.
 

You know something -IT DOES NOT MAKE A CRAP when you don't keep your mouth shut.
There is a posting on this forum about some guy who walks the Wabbso Beach area at night looking for people working the sand dunes. He is NOT connected with the Law
 

Let me finish.
There is a guy that posted on the forum about him walking the Wabbso Beach area looking for people that search the Dunes. He even brags about having Night Vision goggles. He is NOT connected with the LAW in anyway. This guy is really STUPID to post this information.
WARNING:
If you see a one legged old man with a gray beard on the beach late at night and no matter what he appears to be doing you best announce who you are and what you want and if you are wearing Night Vision goggles I consider you a SPY and POTENTIAL THEIF and I will take whatever I fell is the proper action against a CLAIM JUMPER.
Peg Legged
 

My friends I am NOT that Cal. person. I am 69 years old and could give a CRAP what people think about me. I do not walk the beaches with any type of animal. Yes I do relate to some different things that are hard to believe but I have PROFF of everything I say.
Check out my website: SUR-FOOT.COM
This is my invention.
Enough said for now.
When I am able I will take a few photos of TREASURE I have recovered.
Believe it or not I am for REAL.
 

IT SURE APPEARED TO BE DIRECTED TOWARD ME.
Sometimes we old timers get set in our ways and its a little hard to change-ask my wife hahaha.
Have a great day my friend.
Peg Legged
 

Peg legged, This one is directed at you. I think you took that NVG on the beach a little out of context, as we were talking about folks illegally working the dunes near the 1715 wrecks. You make it sound like I am some sort of vigilante prowling the beach late at night specifically looking for illeagle activity. Ask yourself this question, If you are a treasure hunter living on the beach, you own NVG's because you treasure hunt at night and turtle nesting season runs from May - October (no artificial lighting permitted on the beach), and you see, oh say.. some one breaking the law, what would you do?
If folks are illegally digging on the dunes, as someone who lives on the beach and enjoys beach and shallow water treasure hunting, I do take offense. These folks give all treasure hunters a bad name, and there actions could cause local governments to place more and more restrictions on all treasure hunters. Well I for one would not like that prospect at all.
Just a thought.

Q
 

wreckdiver1715,
I guess it was how your statement was presented that upset me. You did not metion anything about the Sea Turtles laying their eggs. What impression were you trying to make and who was it directed at?
Here is a question:
A Logger Head Turtle goes into the dunes to lay her eggs. She starts to dig her bed and in doing so she flips up a few Gold Coins. Are you doing anything WRONG if you pick up the coins. You DID NOT DIG A SINGLE HOLE IN THE DUNES-YOU DID NOT DISTURB A SINGLE GRAIN OF SAND.
Do you walk away and leave the gold coins or do you pick them up?
Silly question cause I WILL pick them up.
Have a good day.
Peg Legged
 

I was reflecting on the casse against the american diver that got arrested in florida. If that diver said he had found the treasure in international waters outside any nations juristriction. Then the prosecuter would then have to prove that the it was salvaged from national waters, which i guess would be a hard thing to do after so many years.

They havent changed the fact that you are innocent untill proven guilty? And beyond guilty beyond resonable doubt?

br

Voldbjerg
 

If I found a treasure in international waters - then it would be finders keepers right? Since no one can claim authority over these waters then I dont have to report the location of the find to anyone, so who would make the documents of origin?

BR

Voldbjerg
 

Voldbjerg,

Your basic premise is incorrect. Wrecks in international waters are subject to the International conventions on salvage and the laws of the sea. Take the Titanic as an example. Which country exerts jurisdiction can vary from case to case, but it is definitely not a case of finders keepers.

Mariner
 

Mariner: Please enlighten me - what are the rules of the international waters? I always thought it was finders keepers.

BR

Voldbjerg
 

Fortunately, I am not a lawyer, but I think this is the situation: If you find something in international waters and want to salvage it, you have to go to a suitable court and apply for the salvage rights. The court will generally try to establish whether the wreck has a legal owner, and then will decide how much to award you as the salvor, and whether to place any restrictions on what you do with the material that you salvage. You cannot sell any of the material without the permission of the court. The value of the salvage award will depend on such things as the value of the salvageable materials. Generally speaking, the court will award the salvor a pretty high percentage of the value of the cargo, especially if the owner has made little or no attempt to find and recover the wreck itself. However, the rulings can be a bit quirky, as in the case of the Titanic, where the people who claimed the salvage rights were given the right to recover and display artifacts from the liner, but were not allowed to sell them.

I am not quite sure what the rules are about which court can accept jurisdiction for a wreck in international waters. I think it can be, for example, the country where the wreck was registered, or the home country of the salvor, or the country whose territorial waters are closest to the wreck, but you would have to check that out with a professional.

State owned ships that were on purely non-commercial activities, referred to as Sovereign Vessels, when they sank are protected against salvage claims.

If you find a non Sovereign vessel in international waters, you stand a good chance of ending up with the lion's share of its cargo, but you have to go through the legal process before you are entitled to salvage it, but this then protects your rights against somebody else who comes along and tries to salvage the same wreck.

Mariner
 

What is wrong with most of you? The only poster here that makes any sense is Diver Doc! While most of my TH'ing is done on land, you have to realize that if those coins were recovered INSIDE Saudi Territorial Waters, they were the property of Saudi Arabia. The diver was stealing Saudi Historical Antiquities! No less than the British in Egypt, or the Nazis in every part of the world they occupied (only on a smaller scale).

Now, I'm not Big Brother, but I do have a good sense of right and wrong. What the US Government has done to many people who have found large caches and treasures (Doc Noss for instance), is pathetic and forces people who find things to keep them a secret. Take for instance some one finds some gold bars with Spanish mint markings and assayers marks on them. Their historical value would be enormous, but knowing the government would do everything in their power to confiscate without compensation everything found, they would be forced to either sell them underground, or have them melted down and sell them for gold value alone, thereby losing objects of great historical significance because of our pathetic treasure trove laws.

I take great pains to be very careful about breaking laws in areas I TH. Take for instance, State Parks; there are no metal detectors allowed in California State Parks. When a trail of monuments leads me into a State Park, I box up the metal detector, so if a Ranger comes visiting, there is not even a possibility of a misunderstanding. When I got out of the military in the early nineties, I worked for SaudiAramco training the Saudi National Guard to use different types of communications equipment. The Saudi Gvmt are not cheapskates. They have just seen the national treasures of many countries looted by foreigners, with the rightful owners having no say in the matter. I'll bet if the diver had contacted the Saudi Antiquities Ministry before leaving the country, they would most likely have cut him a sweet deal, and had his name on a plaque in the Saudi National Museum as the discoverer (the only scary part is that once the phone call is made, the cat's out of the bag)!

The State of Florida has a great deal with treasure salvors in it's territorial waters. I'm not positive, but I believe it's a 50/50 split with the salvor (except for objects of historical significance, and they basically buy the salvor out). England has a good system as well. Turn in your finds, they value them and either let you keep non-historic items/coins or gives you market value.

In this one instance, the man was wrong and the US Government was right (God, it pains me to say that)! They are still returning things looted by the Nazis even though the current owners bought them legally. In the seventies and eighties, museums around the world that had Egyptian Antiquities were forced to make deals with Egypt to keep them on display, or send them back. Same with Iraq, and several other Middle-Eastern Countries.

Didn't mean to preach, but.................
 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if (and I know they are) US Government entities are monitoring these posts, instead of jumping all over the poor TH'er, why not change the laws so that people who find valuable and historically significant items (whether above or below water) aren't forced to become criminals by keeping their finds secret!?!

Wouldn't it be better to have laws that would encourage people to display their finds? Many amateur and semi-pro TH'ers find all kinds of things every year. 99% of the finds are never seen because the finders are afraid of either being prosecuted or having their finds confiscated without compensation, or both! I constantly read stories about some poor slob who trips over some Civil War doohicky by accident and gets his car confiscated and has to go through insane legal battles for years and years just to stay out of jail. All this because he took a walk up some ravine after a good rain in Alabama somewhere.

But then again....a saying I learned early in my military career, "If it's too easy, and makes too much sense, it's not the military way!" Same thing applies to Government Bureaucracy!

Mike
 

I agree Doc. Check out my post under Legal Issues "Dear Big Brother..." I go into a lot more detail. It's mainly just a big vent!

Mike
 

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