Two bullets. Need id!

[clf_02]

First bullet is civil war but a small three ringer that i couldn't id in my book given the size and shape together. It measures .890 in length but is slightly corroded on bottom. I think without corrosion would be .900 or .910. It measured . 445, .447, .448, .450 in diameter depending on how you had it turned...... The second bullet is I'm quiet sure post civil war. It has been shot and is .450 in base diameter.

 

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[clf_02]

CannonballGuy?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The one with the knurling is 20th Century. Likely for a .45 Colt pistol or similar.

You have me stumped on a .445" three ring with hollowbase. But I don't have much Civil War knowledge.

 

[Bryanhashemi]

looks like a cw pistol style bullet. (one on right)

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Your .455-to-.450"-diameter bullet (length .890-to-.910") with three body-grooves and a plain-cone base cavity is not shown in any of my civil war bullet-books. That being said, there is one shown in the Thomas-&-Thomas "Round Ball To Rimfire, Volume IV" book, but its shape is not an exact match for yours, and it is .85"-long, and measures .466" diameter. The shape of yours is more like a Merrill Carbine (.54-caliber) bullet.

There is also bullet #444 in the McKee-&-Mason book, length is .890 but its diameter is .480-inch. M&M identifies it as being for the very-late-war .46 Remington Breechloading Carbine. That rifle used a metallic-cartridge bullet.

There are two "possible" explanations for the difference in diamter between your bullet and those two slightly larger ones:
1- Your bullet is somewhat eroded-down by acidic soil -- but it doesn't look significantly eroded, except at its base.
2- Your bullet was made at a larger diameter but and got fired in a .46 Breechloader, which squeezed its .48" body down. But your bullet doesn't look fired.

I'll consult some top-level civil war bullet collectors who are friends of mine.

 

[clf_02]

I forgot to say this earlier. It has been rammed in a barrel. I added a pic to show the ram mark.

 

[clf_02]

Besides the bottom rim the bullet really don't seem to have much corrosion. Also it does not appeared fired. Maybe the bottom is the way it is due to being pushed out from behind?

 

[clf_02]

I am not saying this is confederate just giving as much info as possible. This bullet was found less than 20 yards from a Maynard bullet and several different size round balls. Also less than 75 yards from a Confederate Mississippi Infantry button and a 1830's Scovill staff officer's button. Which I was told a lot of confederates wore old uniforms because they were not issued confederate uniforms. But in the area the bullet was found no union items or no other confederate items have been found. So maybe that will be a clue to help with the ID.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Clf_02 wrote:
> I forgot to say this earlier. It has been rammed in a barrel. I added a pic to show the ram mark.

Ohh-kay, that bit of late information eliminates the need to do any further research into the possibility that it's a .46 Remington Breechloader bullet.

(For anybody here who doesn't already know -- Breechloader rifle bullets don't get a ramrod mark on them, because they are loaded into the back end of the rifle's barrel.)

The newly-posted additional photos show something else interesting besides the ramrod-mark on the bullet's nose. The second photo seems to show rifling-groove marks. Those pieces of evidence confirm it is a fired Minie, which expanded to fill the rifle's bore. Since lead-patina can add .01-inch to to a dug bullet's diameter, I'm thiniking this fired one was made as a .44-caliber bullet. I'll pass that info on to the top-level bullet collectors I'm going to consult.

 

[clf_02]

K thank you

 

[clf_02]

Any luck on ID cannonball guy?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Clf_02, when I come across a bullet that may be civil war but isn't in any of the civil war bullet-books and I haven't seen one in my nearly 40 years of dealing civil war bullets, I show it to a couple of guys whom I consider to be "highest level" civil war bullet experts. I've emailed them, but unfortunately both of them are out-of-town at the moment. When they return, I'll tell you what they say.

Until then, my thinking is that your fired .44-to-45"-diameter 3-groove Minie-ball is a Confederate "Tennessee-rifle-style" bullet.

Remember, I'm referring to your dug bullet's diameter as .44-to-.45" because we must take the thickness of the lead-oxide patina buildup on it into account when we try to estimate what your bullet's original diameter was, before being exposed to 150 years of oxidation (patina) buildup.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Clf_02, pardon me please, but I've got to ask... are you 100% sure you are reading your caliper correctly when measuring that bullet? I'm asking because you said it is .45 wide and .89 long, but in the sideview photo its length does not look double its width (two times .45 equals .90). Please re-check it, possibly by putting an ordinary ruler up against its base, to see if it actually is less than 1/2-inch wide. Thanks.

 

[materdigger1]

Clf_02, pardon me please, but I've got to ask... are you 100% sure you are reading your caliper correctly when measuring that bullet? I'm asking because you said it is .45 wide and .89 long, but in the sideview photo its length does not look double its width (two times .45 equals .90). Please re-check it, possibly by putting an ordinary ruler up against its base, to see if it actually is less than 1/2-inch wide. Thanks.

Hey Cannonball I checked it for him - the dim's are correct as mentioned - Thanks

 

[clf_02]

I just got some scales in and the bullet weighed 353 grains. Hope that helps.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thank you for the bullet's super-precise weight. Its 353-grain weight proves it is absolutely not a .44 or .46-caliber bullet. For example, a so-called .44 Kerr 3-groove minie is longer (.93") than your .89" minie, but it weighs 83 grains less than your minie.

Another .44 Kerr version (bullet #439 in the M&M book) is .91" long, and weighs 225 grains, which is 128 grains less than your minie.

The .46-caliber (note .46, not .44) Remington minie in the M&M book (bullet #444) is the same length as your minie (.890), but it weighs 302 grains, which is 51 grains less than your minie.

If you check the McKee-&-Mason book for weights of various .54-caliber minies that are very close to the same length as your .89" minie, you'll see they weigh very close to your minie's 353-grain weight. (For example, bullet #433 is .90"-long and weighs 372 grains -- it's a tad longer and weighs only 19 grains more than your bullet.)

It is scientifically impossible for your 353-grain, .89"-long minie to be the .450-to.455"-diameter you say it is. That's why nobody has been able to ID it, despite a lot of research labor.

I suspected that, back when I first examined the photos you posted. Which is why asked you to put a ruler up against the minie's base to see if it really is less than .5-inch wide. If your bullet is indeed actually .45 in diameter, the guy holding it has the smallest thumb fingernail I've ever seen on an adult male. And that still wouldn't explain the length-versus-weight paradox.

 

[clf_02]

To clear things up here is the bullet on a tape measure clearly showing less than 1/2" in diameter. Then a pic of the bullet on the scales this time it bounced between 352 and 353. Included is a pic of the scales with a 100 grain arrow tip to show they are accurate....I don't know what to tell you but it is what it is.

 

[clf_02]

But yea my hands are small as you can see in the pic with this pistol ball.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

The bullet is underneath the ruler. That can cause the size shown in a Macro photograph to be "off" due to lens-perspective. Please put the ruler across the middle of the bullet's base, to see whether it measures 7/16" -- or 1/2" -- or larger. (For a photo, stick the bullet nose-down into a lump of clay, and lay the ruler across the MIDDLE of the bullet's base.)

Also, I'd like to see the bullet sitting up with the ruler touching it, held vertically.

Thank you for your cooperation as we attempt to unravel this mystery.

 

[clf_02]

Harder to line up for the pic but was able to get it but still shows slightly smaller than half inch.