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Trying to identify a shipwreck.
- Thread starter captbilly
- Start date
old man
Bronze Member
CaptBilly, Nice find and welcome back to TNET. The seal maybe Platnium. Just a WAG. Good luck down there.
old man
Bronze Member
CaptBilly, Great Finds. There are some pretty experienced people on here that I am sure can help you. One in particular. He is a grumpy old man like me. But I respect him and he is a Great Guy. His name is Cornelius. He is a wealth of information.
- Thread starter
- #5
Thats why i am on here. Need help. I spend all day trying to cipher through all the available on-line data. its not easy.
Funny i was just thinking of all the wrecks we have worked i havent identified none of them. Even when a bell with a name on it is found dosent provide solid proof. And in this case has thrown the whole process into a tail-spin. The bell could have been a mission bell or even looted by pirates from a slaver? Or could have been the original bell and later the ship went from a slaver to a merchant ship?
Sure would like to know more. Both Spanish and French coins were found. Also one Brazilian Portugese Gold coin. I understand the Portugese were into the slave trade?
But there is absolutely no sign of thsi being a slave ship?
Funny i was just thinking of all the wrecks we have worked i havent identified none of them. Even when a bell with a name on it is found dosent provide solid proof. And in this case has thrown the whole process into a tail-spin. The bell could have been a mission bell or even looted by pirates from a slaver? Or could have been the original bell and later the ship went from a slaver to a merchant ship?
Sure would like to know more. Both Spanish and French coins were found. Also one Brazilian Portugese Gold coin. I understand the Portugese were into the slave trade?
But there is absolutely no sign of thsi being a slave ship?
Dell Winders
Sr. Member
I would suggest the seal be tested for Platinum. Dell
- Oct 26, 2004
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I would disagree with "the local historian" about the bell with the Marquis' name on it coming off a French Slave Ship. The facts are that the Marquis was not born till 1830 the same year as the French Slave trade ended. The Marquis held many titles, both military (rose to General) and political (Secretary of War, etc.). On this side of 'the pond' he may be best known as the General who was involved in the Second Battle of Puebla (Mexico) wherein the French took back that city in 1863 after losing it in 1862. BTW, the First Battle of Puebla is the basis for "Cinco de Mayo" in Mexico; the day the Mexicans beat the French invaders.
Don.....
Don.....
rochwitt
Jr. Member
The Crown with nine pearls refer to a Count, Viscount or Earl. Still looking for more info.
sphillips
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Many wrecks in the D.R. Possibly one on top of the other.
CoinFetcher
Bronze Member
the wax seal might be gold/silver alloy, or like Dell suggested - a platinum alloy.
- Thread starter
- #13
Mackaydon,
This is a great article about another ship with a bell simular to the one found on our wreck,
http://www.shipwreck.net/pdf/OMEPapers17-FINAL.pdf
This is a great article about another ship with a bell simular to the one found on our wreck,
http://www.shipwreck.net/pdf/OMEPapers17-FINAL.pdf
- Oct 26, 2004
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The stance of the lions is called 'rampart regardant'--where the head is turned in the opposite direction of the feet; an unusual position and one that may aid in the ID.
Don........
Don........
- Thread starter
- #15
This is the Bell recovered from our wrecksite. I have the diver who found the bell twenty years ago diving for us and he has showed exactly from what area of the site it had been recovered. So i believe the bell is from our site.
View attachment 722002
This is a photo of the bell in the article i just posted, mid 18th century French ship.
View attachment 722004
Same cross simular design.
View attachment 722002
This is a photo of the bell in the article i just posted, mid 18th century French ship.
View attachment 722004
Same cross simular design.
tlowery04
Sr. Member
- Apr 29, 2011
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nevermind i was looking at the example picture
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- Thread starter
- #17
The coins found on this wreck were found randomly. In all areas we excavated a coin or two would appear. In some instances we found a pocket of coins.
You would think if just a persons personal stash of coins went down with the ship that they would have been relativity close to each other. Thats not the case here. Also we have found lead seals. I know lead seals could have been used for many of things. Some of the lead seals we have found i have researched and seen similar ones used for rolls of cloth. Cloth seals. But also the most wide use of lead seals were for money sacks. Thats where this gets more interesting. Knowing a roll of cloth wouldnt have lasted three hundred years underwater so not sure of that but sure seems to be more signs that the lead seals were used for money sacks than that of cloth. Right? coins litter the whole wreck site?
There must be a way to find more info about this ship, the owners name, inbound or outbound, manifest, what storm may have wrecked her? Such a fantastic wreck, she deserves the best research.
Here is a photo of one of the "Lead Seals" i have looked through thousands of lead seals to try and find a match. So far nothing.
View attachment 722249 View attachment 722250 View attachment 722251 View attachment 722252
Anybody see an image of the world with the continent of Africa? If it is a Slave ship that would make sense?
You would think if just a persons personal stash of coins went down with the ship that they would have been relativity close to each other. Thats not the case here. Also we have found lead seals. I know lead seals could have been used for many of things. Some of the lead seals we have found i have researched and seen similar ones used for rolls of cloth. Cloth seals. But also the most wide use of lead seals were for money sacks. Thats where this gets more interesting. Knowing a roll of cloth wouldnt have lasted three hundred years underwater so not sure of that but sure seems to be more signs that the lead seals were used for money sacks than that of cloth. Right? coins litter the whole wreck site?
There must be a way to find more info about this ship, the owners name, inbound or outbound, manifest, what storm may have wrecked her? Such a fantastic wreck, she deserves the best research.
Here is a photo of one of the "Lead Seals" i have looked through thousands of lead seals to try and find a match. So far nothing.
View attachment 722249 View attachment 722250 View attachment 722251 View attachment 722252
Anybody see an image of the world with the continent of Africa? If it is a Slave ship that would make sense?
The "P" with the crown above appears to be a makers mark. Looked it up and found two like that. Both were of the 1600's (early and late) early was Belgian and late was English.
Interesting to see what you come up with. Lots of wrecks down there. Unfortunately, ships could have carried objects (cannon, coins, whatever), from a number of different countries other that its origin, which can make ID'ing it difficult. The coins should give you your best bet on the time frame it sank. Then try whatever archive documents are available that list wrecks in that area for that time frame. Maybe it was insured through Lloyds or someone and they may have the records. Good luck!
Interesting to see what you come up with. Lots of wrecks down there. Unfortunately, ships could have carried objects (cannon, coins, whatever), from a number of different countries other that its origin, which can make ID'ing it difficult. The coins should give you your best bet on the time frame it sank. Then try whatever archive documents are available that list wrecks in that area for that time frame. Maybe it was insured through Lloyds or someone and they may have the records. Good luck!
- Thread starter
- #19
Thanks Steve,
I never went to school for underwater archeaology or was ever a great historian although in the last six years i have aquired a passion for both. From what i have read and would like to be corrected if i am wrong that Platinum didnt really come into use till the mid 18th century? And the buckle with the crown over the "P" appears to be some sort of metal other than silver? So that is interesting that you found similar markings from the 1600´s. Could be the manufacture was still around till the mid 18th century?
I just caught this, the bell from the Odyssey Exploration site starts its name with "La" (LaMarquise de Tourny) and on the bell from our site begins with "Le" Le Marquis de Galliffet. I wonder (if anything) what difference that would make?
We found a whole set of lead balance beam wieghts. I understand that these wieghts could have been purchased by the ship owners anywhere and probably dosent help much in the identity of the ship, what is funny is the five pound wieght wieghs 5.5 pounds. Maybe to compensate for a holding plate on the other side of the scale? or those little crafty French folks scored a half a pound everytime they wieghed something?
These photos are of the ten pound wieght.
View attachment 722580 View attachment 722581 View attachment 722582 View attachment 722583 View attachment 722584
I never went to school for underwater archeaology or was ever a great historian although in the last six years i have aquired a passion for both. From what i have read and would like to be corrected if i am wrong that Platinum didnt really come into use till the mid 18th century? And the buckle with the crown over the "P" appears to be some sort of metal other than silver? So that is interesting that you found similar markings from the 1600´s. Could be the manufacture was still around till the mid 18th century?
I just caught this, the bell from the Odyssey Exploration site starts its name with "La" (LaMarquise de Tourny) and on the bell from our site begins with "Le" Le Marquis de Galliffet. I wonder (if anything) what difference that would make?
We found a whole set of lead balance beam wieghts. I understand that these wieghts could have been purchased by the ship owners anywhere and probably dosent help much in the identity of the ship, what is funny is the five pound wieght wieghs 5.5 pounds. Maybe to compensate for a holding plate on the other side of the scale? or those little crafty French folks scored a half a pound everytime they wieghed something?
These photos are of the ten pound wieght.
View attachment 722580 View attachment 722581 View attachment 722582 View attachment 722583 View attachment 722584
ScubaFinder
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From Burt Webber:
That looks like an old post. Is it not? I was first shown the wreck site back in 1983 by a Dominican fisherman. We only spent a day in the site during which time I chanced upon the bell fused in dead coral in the mouth of a small overhang like cave. Using Porta-power hydraulics the bell was extracted. The name on the bell is the "Marquis de Gallifet" with the date of 1774 as I recall. It was inventoried and turned over to the Submarine Archaeological Recovery Commission in Santo Domingo along with a couple of other artifacts recovered.
The shipwreck is at the base of a sheer cliff which the ship obviously hit. The wreckage remains
are in a concrete like encrustation and I have never before seen cannons in such a horribly deteriorated state. In 2010 or 2011, Deep Blue, Inc. worked the site and recovered some interesting artifacts and a few coins but the site cannot justify the cost of working it as very little is recoverable. This is not a slave ship but appears to have been a French trader or possibly a smaller military ship. I do believe the SubAquatic Office in Santo Domingo now has further research relating to this shipwreck so I suggest you contact them.....Burt D. Webber, Jr.
That looks like an old post. Is it not? I was first shown the wreck site back in 1983 by a Dominican fisherman. We only spent a day in the site during which time I chanced upon the bell fused in dead coral in the mouth of a small overhang like cave. Using Porta-power hydraulics the bell was extracted. The name on the bell is the "Marquis de Gallifet" with the date of 1774 as I recall. It was inventoried and turned over to the Submarine Archaeological Recovery Commission in Santo Domingo along with a couple of other artifacts recovered.
The shipwreck is at the base of a sheer cliff which the ship obviously hit. The wreckage remains
are in a concrete like encrustation and I have never before seen cannons in such a horribly deteriorated state. In 2010 or 2011, Deep Blue, Inc. worked the site and recovered some interesting artifacts and a few coins but the site cannot justify the cost of working it as very little is recoverable. This is not a slave ship but appears to have been a French trader or possibly a smaller military ship. I do believe the SubAquatic Office in Santo Domingo now has further research relating to this shipwreck so I suggest you contact them.....Burt D. Webber, Jr.
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