True Spelling

[Cubfan64]

Lamar knows his history, but he won't find much of an audience here.

With all due respect Joe, I don't believe that's true. I think there are a number of people here who are open to every possibility and are always eager to add to their knowledge base.

I for one hope Lamar sticks around.

 

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[the blindbowman]

Dear group;
Let's take an example of how a theory breaks down when exposed to the light of factual evidence. let's take a single statement and place in under heavy scrutiny for all to see.

"Then there is the case of the missing billions (yes BILLIONS) of pounds of copper, mined in the Great Lakes region during the same time period, by some mysterious people and nowhere to be found in the Americas - yet there is a tremendous supply of copper to make bronze in the Old World during the same time period, when there is no such supply known during their time in the Old World. Coincidence?"

First, how do we KNOW that billions of copper are in fact missing? Did someone inventory the native copper, then when they returned a few years later noticed that a billion pounds of the stuff were missing? I can imagine that the thought process went something like this: "Hmmmm, now where IS all of that native copper that was lying around here There was a few billion pounds of the stuff that we were going to use to make something special for the chiefs' wedding. I guess I should report this to the front office."

Sure, I'll bet that it happened in just that manner. First, copper is not native to the Great Lakes region, iron is. But, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that there actually was several billion pounds of readly accessible and mineable native copper in the region. Has anyone ever seen what 1 BILLION pounds of copper looks like I've seen a few tons of it before and that was a LOT of copper. I can just imagine how big of a mountain that one B-I-L-L-I-O-N pounds of native copper looks like. That would a HUGE mountain of copper.

OK, so now we have our 1 billion pounds of copper lying in the ground, just waiting to be mined by some industrialistic natives. To mine 1 billion pounds of native would have taken an EXTRAORDINARY amount of labor. The manpower requirements for exploiting 1 billion pounds of native copper would be mind boggling by todays' standards, to say nothing of the fact that everything had to be extracted from the earth by hand, using only the crudest sort of tools. It would have required hundreds of thousands of men, working round the clock for generations merely to extract 1,000,000 pounds of native copper ore, to say nothing of the processing part.

So where did the miners live while they were mining this ore? You can't mine copper of this magnitude without there being a trace of the people who mined the ore. The process would have required cities of men and women, complete with a supporting logistics system, in order to accomplish an undertaking of this size. Nobody can tell me that the miners homes disappeared from the earth without a trace as something on a scale this large cannot just up and disappear.

So what happened to the ore after it was wrenched from the earth? Was it shipped to Europe or to other points, henceforth unknown? In order to transship 1 billion pounds of processed copper ore, it would have required tens of thousands of ships, each displacing around 50 tons and each sailing back and forth non-stop for generations in order to move the 1 billion pounds of copper ore. Again, you cannot possibly hide the residue from a 10,000 ship fleet, no matter how hard you tried. Surely there would be SOME evidence of this massive fleet, as evidenced by waste, trash, lost items and shipwrecks. It's simply impossible to think about.

Now, this is logical deduction breaking apart the statement that billions of copper were somehow displaced by person, or persons, unknown and has yet to be found. Now we can proceed to further tear apart this rather ridiculous statement through the use of scientific deduction. How can science help us to determine the validity or falseness of the statement in question?

By the simple use of metallurgy, that's how. A good metallurgist, working in a lab, can not only tell from region the ore from a particular metallic artifact was mined at, they can also tell us the approximate age of the artifact, by the particular process which was utilized to smelt and shape the piece. First, the scientist examines the modecular structure of the artifact. This is known as the *lattice* or the matrix. From this lattice the scientist can determine the base metal, the alloying agents used, the trace minerals and the processes used to shape and form the artifact. From all of this data the scientist can pinpoint the region the ore in the artifact came from. From the alloying agents and the modecular spacing of the lattice the scientist can deduce the time frame the artifact was manufactured in and also the region in which the artifact was produced.

I can state with some authority that NO copper or bronze artifact has yet been discovered in either Europe, Asia or Africa which has shown to have been manufactured using ores or alloys mined from the Great Lakes region of the USA. Again, using logic and science together, one can assume that 1 billion of native copper ore would an untold amount of artifacts. The artifacts would be virtually EVERYWHERE. They would be turning up in every spot on the planet. This is how much that 1 billion pounds of copper equals. With one billion pounds of mined native copper ore the planet would have no need to mine any more copper, right up till today. As yet, there has no been even close to one billion pounds of native copper mined on the entire planet.

On the surfacr, such a statement might seem to have some basis of fact, but once examined from all sides and all of the logical questions have been asked, it crumbles into dust. To drive home the point further still, scientific process can be incorporated to completely rip to shreds the statement that billions of pounds of native copper were mined in the Great Lakes region of the USA, then simply disappeared to parts unknown, by persons unknown. It just didn't happen.
Your friend;
LAMAR

igot to agree with you an that Lamar . i live in northern new york and my families have lived here from the 1649 coppers falls settement ..the mohawk had little copper before the whites came to this came to the area and they had little use for it after ... pig iron axes and hand tools were traded to them they were not farmers and they were gathers .and hunters ..... that is a out right fact , i have worked indain sites in this area for well over 35 years and my father was a historain and my great grand mother was a full blooded mohawk chiff's daughter . i spent many nights falling asleep watching them dance out the car window as my father would go there weekly .

i dont remember ever seeing them wear any metal at all , most things were made by hand and feather as they say ....

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
I'd like to thank everyone for their support and I also wish to state that I do NOT wish for anyone to stop searching!!! Heaven forbid, if we quit searching for the truth then we will become as cattle or sheep. What I do wish to see is for people to stop chasing rumors and myths and to start searching for something real. Something tangible. An ancient native American village can and will provide the explorer with a virtual lifetime of awe and wonder. Imagine gazing upon the artifacts and belongings of a people 1,000 or more years removed from our planet. With every artifact uncovered and cataloged we come that much closer to our collective past. Not at all treasure is silver and gold. Sometimes, the greatest treasures we may ever discover is the one which is locked away in our hearts.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Cubfan64]

First, copper is not native to the Great Lakes region

Lamar - This statement you made struck me. I grew up in Michigan and Wisconsin and although I'm not a scholar on the geology of the Great Lakes region, I believe you are incorrect in this assessment. Copper is indeed native to that region of the country and has been both mined and used for many many years.

I can provide links to information as such if you would like, but it truly is a fact that copper is indeed native to that area and in fairly large quantities (whether billions of pounds I don't know).

Respectfully

 

[lamar]

Dear Cubfan64;
Copper sulfides and hydroxides can be found throughout the Great Lakes region but actual copper is not as plentiful there as other regions. Iron is king where you are from my friend. I know of some spots in Upper Michigan and Wisconsin where you can sled down the iron slag piles. Copper has never been mined in the Great Lakes regions in great abundance, not so much because it's not plentiful, but because it's difficult to get to and the area is mostly unsuited for open pit mining operations, unlike the Arizona region. In the future the Great Lakes may see more native copper mined if copper prices keep rising. ho knows?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Cubfan64]

Dear Cubfan64;
Copper sulfides and hydroxides can be found throughout the Great Lakes region but actual copper is not as plentiful there as other regions. Iron is king where you are from my friend. I know of some spots in Upper Michigan and Wisconsin where you can sled down the iron slag piles. Copper has never been mined in the Great Lakes regions in great abundance, not so much because it's not plentiful, but because it's difficult to get to and the area is mostly unsuited for open pit mining operations, unlike the Arizona region. In the future the Great Lakes may see more native copper mined if copper prices keep rising. ho knows?
Your friend;
LAMAR

We'll just have to agree to disagree I'm afraid Lamar. Here is just one source of a great many you can find on native "pure" copper in the great lakes region. I won't argue with you at all that it's not as plentiful as other places in the world, and I also won't disagree that iron is abundant - my only comment was that your statement of copper not being native to the great lakes region is just not historically correct is all.
Yours, Paul

http://www.exploringthenorth.com/coppertrips/guide.html

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: True Spelling (warning another LONG winded reply, extra coffee alert!)

Greetings Lamar and Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone here,

Lamar wrote:

They were not, nor still, permitted to engage in any commercial venture that is profit motivated or is at odds with their Christian beliefs. Period.

I hope you will take the time (should your interest be so kindled) to read through at least a portion of some of the great resource of documents that record the activities of the Jesuits in New France (Canada) during the colonial period. Here is a link to a site with a good many of the available documents:

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/jesuit-relations/index-e.html

You will find that the Jesuit fathers were very highly concerned about making their various posts PROFITABLE; whether through the discovery of mineral deposits, or of trading for furs, or hunting seals, or raising grain or cattle or sheep in other words in ANY possible method by which their missions and their spiritual charges could turn profits. It is understandable that such missions MUST NEEDS be made profitable, for they cannot operate solely at the expense of the church or state indefinitely – they MUST make a profit or their missions will certainly FAIL and a good number of missions of the various missionary groups did in fact fail over the centuries. You might wish to research a bit more to learn the truth.

Lamar wrote:

It had absolutely NOTHING to do mines or mining in the New World. I dare anyone to produce a single scrap of paper with a royal edit proclaiming the Jesuit order was expelled from the New World due to mining. It just didn't happen.

I would point you to US National Park Service website:

Quote

"During the eighteenth century, relations between Jesuits and neighboring Spaniards were sometimes severely strained. The mission communities often included the best agricultural and grazing lands in the area, as well as the most reliable sources of water. As the Indian population declined, other settlers pressured civil and military administrators to divide the mission lands, something resisted by the priests. Also, Indians were the principal workers on the ranches and in the mines, and, to a large extent, the Jesuits controlled this labor force and opposed efforts to make greater use of it. Finally, the missionaries concentrated attention on the needs of the Indians and were sometimes reluctant or unable to perform religious services for others. As a result of the resentment some settlers felt toward the Jesuits, civil and military administrators were quick to blame the priests for Indian uprisings such as the Pima Revolt of 1751."

(The Pimeria Alta, Southwestern Research Center, Tucson, Arizona)
(from http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Priests.html)

The evils of missionization from the Northern Piman point of view were incarnate in the Jesuit missionaries Tomás Tello at Caborca, Henry Ruhen at Sonoita, Joseph Garrucho at Guebavi, and above all Ygnacio Xavier Keller at Santa María Suamca.

(from http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/spct/body.1_div.2.html)

Cactusjumper wrote:

It would seem that Lamar and I are on the same page <snip>

Why am I not surprised? It seems that with many subjects, a good many people tend to see everything in black and white, accepting what is to be found in our encyclopedias and history books, when the truth is a far different matter. For some will assume that virtually ALL mining activity in the New World was the work of Jesuits, while others will completely exonerate the Jesuits of ALL sorts of mining activity, pointing to their “poverty” and “honesty”. Neither view is accurate – for MOST of the ancient mining activity was NOT the work of Jesuits, nor were the Jesuits completely innocent of any mining activity.

It is not my mission in life to convince you my friends of what I have become convinced of, only to point out that you are not absolutely correct in my view based on what I have found in my own research. You are certainly welcome to hold your own views on this, and you are in good company as the Jesuits themselves will certainly swear that you are correct.

Cactusjumper also wrote:

Did you ever consider the possibility that civilization and the pyramids went from South America to Europe and not the other way around?

Actually yes I have considered it, as have some others who have proposed outlandish and even ridiculous theories based on this. What I see is that the IDEA of pyramid building got transmitted, and the evidence will fit this position, not that Egyptians were in Mexico building pyramids, nor that Mayans were in Korea building pyramids. What will fit is that SOME people, a people who were trading and traveling around the seas and interacting with local people sometimes in a very limited extent, could have been the agents of transmitting the idea. Who has not been impressed on seeing the huge pyramids of Egypt, and then not gone on to tell others of what he/she saw with their own eyes? Can you imagine a traveling merchant, visiting ancient Egypt and seeing the great pyramids for the first time, and not telling anyone he met about what he saw?

Lamar has also made statements about there not being any lost mines or lost treasures, and in this I am respectfully in total disagreement. In my own research of literally thousands of hours, I have learned that the great majority of lost mine “legends” at least, they are based on real events and places, not something that came from out of a whisky bottle or treasure writer’s imagination. A great many have been embellished, distorted and even deliberately altered to mislead anyone who might search for them, but they are real nonetheless. I know of several “lost mines” that have been re-discovered and developed into working mines, such as the lost gold nuggets of Goler (which became the fabulously rich placer mine complex in Goler Gulch) or the infamous Lost Breyfogle that is one and the same with the rich Amargosa mine in California. Here among our own Treasurenet members we have a rather famous personage in Real de Tayopa, who (after many years diligent effort, expense and enduring dangers) has rediscovered the infamous original Tayopa mine. In some cases we can find that several apparently different “legends” of a lost mine are really referring to the same mine – for instance the Lost Pick and the Lost Black Maverick are almost certainly one and the same mine, seen by two different witnesses who reported what they had found to separate locations and thus the tales seem to be two different mines when in reality it is one. The case with lost treasures is more complex, and I have not spent as many hours in researching lost treasures (for the single good reason that a treasure could be MOVED or have been found and not reported, while a mine cannot be moved) but in those cases that I have researched, it appears that a majority are based on real facts. I can point to several offhand:

The famous Canyon Station stagecoach robbery involving the famous armored stage in SD/Wyoming border, the subject of a famous John Wayne western movie;

The famous sunken treasure ship Atocha, found by Mel Fisher,

The plane hijacking by DB Cooper,

A wagonload of gold bullion that “disappeared” in North-central PA during the Civil War,

The missing payroll of British General Braddock’s army during the Revolutionary War,

Two train robberies near Willcox Arizona in the late 1800s, involving many thousands of dollars in gold and silver, these in particular I researched as fully as I could and they are absolutely true and never recovered,

And many more far too numerous to list here! Yes there are false stories, but any serious treasure hunter can readily weed these out by some due research. To make statements that “there are no lost mines or lost treasures” is only to show that this person has failed to research the matter very deeply.

The case of the “missing billions of pounds of copper” Lamar chose to pick out as something that will “not stand up” however again it appears that Lamar has not bothered to research the matter fully.

“Around 10,000 prehistoric Copper miners pits on the South Shore of Lake Superior and on Isle Royale attest to a large and thriving prehistoric culture based on Copper Mining in this area. Relatively little is known about these ancient miners, but, many theories abound regarding this group of prehistoric miners.”

(from http://www.dayooper.com/CopperCulture.htm)

For some 1800 years, beginning abruptly about 3000 BC, some industrious peoples mined ore equivalent to 500,000 tons of copper from Michigan's Isle Royale and Keweenaw Peninsula. Who were these mysterious miners, and what happened to all all that copper? It certainly hasn't been found in the relics of North American Indians. And where was the ore smelted? About all the unidentified miners left behind are some of the crude tools they used to pound out chunks of ore from their pit mines (5000 pit mines on Isle Royale alone). Outside of some cairns and slabrock ruins, there is little to help pin down these miners. Mainstream archeologists attribute all these immense labors to a North American "Copper Culture" -- certainly not to copper-hungry visitors from foreign shores. Admittedly, many copper artifacts have been dug up from North American mounds, but only a tiny fraction of the metal the Michigan mines must have yielded.

(from http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm)

At the same time we have a large amount of missing copper from America, we have a large amount of bronze made in the Old World, without enough copper mines in the ancient Old World to have supplied all the copper needed to create all that bronze. Not a "smoking gun" admittedly, but another curious "coincidence".

I apologize for having posted yet another extremely LONG winded post, and will not test your collective patience any further with this as it has drifted VERY far off-topic from the subject matter of this thread.

As always, good luck and good hunting to you Lamar, Cactusjumper and everyone, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek – plus have a very happy Thanksgiving!
Your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening Oro. as you know, Tayopa is still an ongoing program, so I cannot go into the specifics of Jesuit involvement yet, but Father Polzer and I did have some spirited conversations. before he passed on.

As for Jesuit activities in mining, one only as to check the history and background of the various superintendents of the Major mines near Mexico city, they were Jesuits.

Regarding plots and conspiracy's, one of my present associates was educated as a Jesuit. He found that the pleasures of the flesh were more attractive, so he was never ordained. However, this did give him a certain edge, and a few years ago he wrangled an audience with the then no 2 of the Society. In this he bluntly asked if it were true of the conspiracy. The gentleman laughed, and said ,"yes, but we don't do that sort of thing anymore".

This conspiracy was the basis of the extremely well coordinated, simultaneous, arrest order of the Jesuit priests. An order of this type certainly would not have been necessary for a simple expulsion, but would have been necessary if theJesuits were near the actual uprising..

I also solved the method and location of the system of small Jesuit missions that were set up to leap frog precious metal across northern Mexico to the vicinity of Matamorros, and from there, shipment to Rome.

The short end of a long story is that I was shown the actual location of a collection point east of Tayopa where they had my contact's family construct a depository inside of a small hill. it is still covered with 10 ft of dirt. It is on my near future list to terminate asap after Tayopa. He said that according to his ancestors they left quite a number of scrolls, church ornaments, and bars inside of the depository when they caved in the earth over the entrance.when they left.

There are many other tidbits which show that they were definitely mining in the new word as well as the old. However, remember, it was not the mission Priests that mined, but a separate group of Jesuits that were ordered to this work. They had no normal contact with the mission priests, hence no records are readily available.

Forgive me if I seem a bit disjointed or incoherent, but I have only had 2 hrs sleep since yesterday, most of my typing is being done with my nose

Hasta Manana

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

Like everyone's posts, there is truth and some wishful thinking in your last post.

Quote
"During the eighteenth century, relations between Jesuits and neighboring Spaniards were sometimes severely strained. The mission communities often included the best agricultural and grazing lands in the area, as well as the most reliable sources of water. As the Indian population declined, other settlers pressured civil and military administrators to divide the mission lands, something resisted by the priests. Also, Indians were the principal workers on the ranches and in the mines, and, to a large extent, the Jesuits controlled this labor force and opposed efforts to make greater use of it. Finally, the missionaries concentrated attention on the needs of the Indians and were sometimes reluctant or unable to perform religious services for others. As a result of the resentment some settlers felt toward the Jesuits, civil and military administrators were quick to blame the priests for Indian uprisings such as the Pima Revolt of 1751."
(The Pimeria Alta, Southwestern Research Center, Tucson, Arizona)
(from http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Priests.html)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are using the quote in bold to show that Jesuits used the Indian labor force for mining, you are misreading what was written. The same information can be found in almost any account of Jesuit history in the New World. The surrounding text (beyond your quote) proves just the opposite.

Then again, maybe I am misreading it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Cactusjumper also wrote:

Quote
Did you ever consider the possibility that civilization and the pyramids went from South America to Europe and not the other way around?


Actually yes I have considered it, as have some others who have proposed outlandish and even ridiculous theories based on this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"outlandish and even ridiculous theories" That seems like a rather harsh statement when one considers the evidence. The timing of the pyramid building in Egypt and South America, is the key to my statement.

Of course there are lost mines and treasures. My statement about Lamar only had to do with his posts about the Jesuits.....No matter what I wrote.

Paul,

Perhaps I worded that wrong. What I should have written was: Lamar will find a lot of opposition to any negative statements about the possibility of Jesuit mining. 30 years ago, I would have been quoting chapter and verse from the likes of Dobie, Mitchel.....etc.

If you repeat fiction long enough, it can easily become fact.

Jose,

"They had no normal contact with the mission priests, hence no records are readily available."

That is so true........And there never is.


Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Here is an interesting site for some of you who may be interested http://tashmoo.com/Alamar/boxing-compass.html. Ta yO Pa

Ed T

.

Ed T , you didnt take your piont far enough ..."The Beginnings of European Ocean Travel
European navigators sailed at most a day (in the Mediterranean) or two (around Greenland) away from the sight of land. Using charts like this in the 1440s the Portuguese became Europe's first regular open-ocean sailors, traveling for more than a week without sighting land.




This 1440 chart has the approximately correct longitude of the Mediterranean. The Iberian Muslim astronomer Az-Zarqali (Azarquiel) correctly determined the longitudinal extent of the Mediterranean in the 11th century AD. Thus the Canary Islands show up exactly where they should be. But why does the chart show the Azores in the wrong place?

Were the chart makers trying to hide the distance from sailors who might be fearful of the open ocean? Might chart makers have been trying to mislead the ordinary sailors on board?

Or was the reason more prosaic? Did they just run out of paper, or not want to waste paper drawing a vast expanse of ocean?





Az-Zarqali (who died circa 1100) corrected Ptolemy's estimate of the length of the Mediterranean sea from 62 degrees to approximately correct value of 42 degrees. He also anticipated Kepler by arguing correctly that the orbits of the planets are not circular but egg-shaped. Iberian astronomy was the most advanced in Europe.



,,,


the 1440 map in question shows 5 square of latitude yet the Azores are added to the map ,and they asume this was to not scare ship mates from the amont of open ocean they had to cross,they asume to much . think about what the facts are .. they massure 5 square and the map 7 on to a 5 square format . makeing it look like the amont they have explorate is far less then it truely was ... thus the next question i ask is why take a larger area and fit it on one page , i could only come up with one logical reason .. there were more pages . if so what would have been on the next page to the west .7 squares of latitude west ..you alreay know the answer if you under stand what i have stated in the past ...

the page most like would have coverd most of the southern part of north America and the northern part of south America and the gluf of mexico .. why would the navigator try to get bacl to the 33 degree lon . that is a simple question to answer . for maping scale note where the compass rose is at on the 1440 map . 3 1/2 squares west of the temple mount , if you add the other two squares you find the compass rose is in fact in the center of the true scaled area ... this means the chart was made this way for a reason to hide the true scale of what they knew ...if there was 7 square and not 5 as what is seen in the map . this is most likely a templar chart ...and the date would be right , 5 years after the 1435 date ...

are they hideing 7 in 5 ...?

if this is the same code i have been translateing , there is a nother page missing and it is templar , i think henry the navigator saw this page and noted the navigation was logically out of scale for a reason .. , and he would have wanted to know why ... i think he went to find out for him self thats why the 1435 date was on the stones ... get damn lazerand check it out for your self ... i can wait ...

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Before one can assert the fact that information has came from a RELIABLE source, one must first ask the question, "Did the chronicler witness the event(s) in question?" Also, evidence of ancient diggings by native miners is one thing, however the assetion that "Billions of pounds of copper" is something else. I have a fairly decent sized imagination and I can't wrap my mind around the possibility of BILLIONS of pounds of any ore. That is just wayyyyyyyy too much to even consider. We MUST remember that the people who were mining minerals at the time had NO MODERN TOOLS OR EQUIPMENT! As evidenced from the known Incan diggings of Peru, it took GENERATIONS to tunnel a mere 100 feet into the rock. This isn't sandstone or limestone, this is HARD ROCK and using nothing more than another rock to mine with it takes a panifully long time to do ANYTHING! Sure, there were ancient miners in the Great Lakes regions, however all of the pits were shallow and the ore removed was most likely exposed to the elements before any actual mining occurred. If you were to divide 1,000,000,000 pounds by 10,000 pits then you would arrive at the conclusion that each shallow pit produced 100,000 POUNDS of copper ore! This is a physical impossibility folks. Let's now assume that only 10% of the ancient diggigs have been discovered. This still leave 10,000 POUNDS of copper ore per PIT! Again, this is another physical impossibility. Let's realistically assume that each pit averaged 1,000 pounds of native copper ore. This would mean that there must have been 1 MILLION shallow pits dug! This can't be either. There simply weren't enough people in the entire North American CONTINENT to be able to work 1,000,000 copper desposits. Again, we must use some logic BEFORE making ANY assumptions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
One cannot use the Atocha wreck as a prime example of lost treasures, as the Atocha was an EXTREMELY well documented wreck. There were 3 separate royal manifests attesting to the cargos' inventory, by 3 different royal pursers, as was the custom of the times. When the ship went aground in a hurricane, the wreck itself was EXTREMELY well documented as well. The only thing that was inaccurate was the exact location of the wreck itself. Colonial salvage teams attempted to recover the treasure from the Atocha before it was too late. Again, all of these facts were EXTREMELY well documented by numerous reliable sources and they were in fact used as a sort of official *newspaper* to the King of Spain in order to keep him up to date on current events in the New World.
Mel Fisher KNEW the treasure of the Atocha was still on the reef. He KNEW that the bulk of the treasure horde was still sitting safely on the bottom of the ocean. He KNEW all of this because events leading up to the wreck, and after the wreck, were all EXTREMELY well documented by VERY reliable sources. He didn't need to take into account any alternate theories about the treasure being misinventoried for whatever reason, or a conspiracy about how the Jesuits intentionally misnoted the actual wreck site. He KNEW the facts because he could hold them in his hands and READ from FIRST HAND sources.
All that was left for him to do was to actually locate and salvage the wreck. This was not nearly as easy as most people would imagine. Even with EXTREMELY reliable data from first hand witnesses at his fingertips, it still took more than a decade of dedicated searching, during which time he went bankrupt several times and lost a son inthe process. Such is the nature of the game.
I most generally discount suppositions and fanciful theories pertaining to the involvement of the Jesuits when it comes to mining minerals in the New World or anywhere else, or about them being Old World merchants. I will continue to discount these notions until I have in my hands actual FACTS. If there is ONE official document in ONE archive ANYWHERE which states unequiviably by a RELIABLE source about the Jesuits operating and managing mines, THEN I will believe it. This has yet to happen and people have been searching the archives in both the Old World and the New World for generations. Nobody can produce one actual written archival document about ANY of the rumors and myths which have been leveled againest the Jesuit Order. They can make fanciful assumptions and they can spout off with fanciful theories. They can chase rumors until they are blue in the face. They can listen to tales handed down by word of mouth and formulate alternative theories, yet none of these so called *experts* seems to have ever set foot in an actual historical archive and produced a single scrap of factual evidence.
Now let's assume that the Jesuits were POSSIBLY involved in New World mining. Now we need to ask THIS question: "If the Jesuits were in fact controlling and operating mines in Mexico, why then is there NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE about the Jesuits doing the same thing in South America during the same timeframe?" Again, there is NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE which has come to light about the Jesuits doing anything amiss in South America, and trust me, South America had a much larger supply of readily accessible gold and silver ore during the early colonial days than Mexico did.
Again, we can ask the very same question about secrets symbols and codes. There seems to be NO secret symbols uncovered ANYWHERE in South America, Jesuit or otherwise. These were the very same Jesuits who were in Mexico and they were ALL educated in the same places and they ALL followed the same standards of conduct, so why did the Jesuits in Mexico resort to all sorts of underhanded dealings and they used secret codes and handshakes, whereas their brethen in South America did not?
All of these questions are unanswerable if we were to embark on alternate theories, however if we use the FACTUAL data which is available to us, then the alternate theories crumble in front of our eyes.
I happen to live in South America and I happen to have heard about the fabulous wealth of Paititi (El Dorado) and again, while there are lots of rumors and theories floating about, there is no actual evidence that this city actually existed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

`

Silver and Gold

 

[gollum]

Gold

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Really nice pictures.

Can you tell us where we can find the report from the University that authenticated the artifacts?

As you, and anyone who has researched the Jesuits and their missions can tell you, the Jesuits insisted on being paid for the produce and animal products they sold in gold or silver. Having Father Kino's name on a bar, does not prove the metal came from a Jesuit mine.

The gold and silver bars were used like checks are today. If authentic, the pictures with Kino's name on the bars would have been payment for goods received by the mine owners. That would be food for the miners.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[wildrider]

All of you can keep on looking for Tayopa, I think that I will try to find Topira.

I'm looking for Tapioca.

I think I saw it in the Pudding Mountain Range, near Candy Ridge. They say it's hiding millions in chocolate gold coins...

Are you from Clo-vez?

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The photos prove nothing. Again, it's time to let logic take over. If I were a Jesuit missionary and if I were engaged in a highly illegal activity which could very easily cost me my LIFE I don't think I'd be putting my name on the evidence in question. Not only do the ingots have his name on them they also have a date. That's just too much.

Moving right along, on one of the alleged ingots belonging to Fr. Kino we see the word "PESETA" clearly cast into an ingot. This was the monetary unit of Spain, in the same way the dollar is the monetary unit of the USA. OK, all is well & good. That is, UNTIL we research the peseta for a bit, then we find that the peseta was the monetary unit of Spain from 1869 until 2002. Wait a minute!!! 1869 Didn't Fr. Kino pass away in the year 1711, one hundred and fifty-eight years BEFORE the peseta was introduced? The word PESETA wasn't even known to exist until Spain joined the Latin Monetary Union in 1868. The word most likely originated from the Catalan word PECETA meaning something little or small in nature or stature.

So now we must ask, why is a word cast into an ingot that wasn't even known to exist in any form whatsoever until 158 years after Fr. Kinos' death? This leads to several possible conclusions.
1) The ingots are fake and not having been researched all that well, the forger made an obvious mistake about the years.
2) The ingots are real and Ft. Kinos' name was cast into them as a rememberance or identifier of some sort.
3) The ingots which were discovered came from different times spanning at at least 158 years.

The most likely cause is that the ingots were cast using molds that were modelled after actual existing ingots. I seriously doubt that someone used Fr. Kinos' name as a sort of icon, however there is a slim chance of this occurring. I also seriously doubt that the ingots were hoarded over a timeframe spanning at least 158 years.

Next, we need to ask why were there so many different sizes and shapes? Wouldn't one or two ingot molds suffice, especially when a person was performing an act of an illicit nature? Just attempting to regulate the weights of all of those different sized and shaped ingots must have been a very trying experince in itself.

Now, we need to ask, why would Fr. Kino authorize his name being cast onto silver and gold ingots when the only place that they could be sent to was back to Spain? This would be akin to turning oneself in for a crime they committed and handing the hangman a rope at the same time. It just doesn't stand the common sense test. It's very easy to cast mallable metals such as gold and silver into any desired shape and manufacturing ingot molds is a simple matter with modern tools.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: True Spelling (Yep another LONG one, and WAY off topic, extra coffee alert)

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

Lamar wrote:

One cannot use the Atocha wreck as a prime example of lost treasures, as the Atocha was an EXTREMELY well documented wreck.

Actually Atocha is a prime example of lost treasures, the fact that it is well documented did not prevent the ‘skeptics’ from dismissing it as so much fiction for many years, that it of course until Mr Fisher located it.

Lamar also wrote:

I happen to live in South America and I happen to have heard about the fabulous wealth of Paititi (El Dorado) and again, while there are lots of rumors and theories floating about, there is no actual evidence that this city actually existed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Well my friend Lamar it seems that you have been ill-informed concerning the legendary Paititi. Here is an extract:
quote

El Dorado" discovered in Peruvian Amazon, explorers claim

Story Filed: Saturday, July 27, 2002 5:02 PM EST

Lima, Jul 27, 2002 (EFE via COMTEX) -- An international team of explorers claims to have found the legendary Inca city of gold that the Spanish knew as "El Dorado," deep in the heart of the Peruvian Amazon.

The quest began on June 30, when more than two dozen researchers began combing the wild and unexplored jungle region along the basin of the Madre de Dios River.

El Dorado, called "Paititi" by the region's Indian population, is known as the last bastion of the Incas as they sought refuge from advancing Spanish conquistadors.

The leader of the expedition, the Polish-Italian journalist and explorer Jacek Palkiewicz, told EFE Saturday he was very pleased with the expedition and felt "certain" he had found El Dorado.

After two years of research and exploration, Palkiewicz said, the lost city had been found in an area adjoining the Manu national park, southeast of Lima.

The journey to El Dorado has allowed the researchers to confirm all the written accounts and myths surrounding the lost city, including reports that it was a 10-day walk from Cuzco, the ancient capital of the Inca empire.

(end quoted extract, from: http://laicacota.blogspot.com/2007/04/arqueologa-fantstica-paititi-of-incas.html

Palkiewicz had found a sixteenth century Jesuit manuscript in the Vatican library which is the key to finding el Dorado: (article on The Times UK website now gone, but detailed that the Pope had given the Jesuits permission to proselytize El Dorado, and keep the location secret from the Spanish authorities in light of what had happened to the Aztecs and Incas.) The link, which no longer works, was: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-205780,00.html If anyone has saved that article I would appreciate a copy, as I did not save a copy for my own records. (I was unaware that The Times purges their outdated articles from the internet.)

The photos of bars and ingots posted by mi amigo Mike (Gollum) are quite mysterious really and I have to agree with Lamar, it seems highly improbable that good father Kino would have put his own name onto bars that would instantly incriminate himself. Just who or whom created those bars and exactly when is going to be quite difficult to prove up.

As for the statement

If there is ONE official document in ONE archive ANYWHERE which states unequiviably by a RELIABLE source about the Jesuits operating and managing mines, THEN I will believe it.

If your curiosity and budget allows, I would suggest that you make a visit to the Vatican in Rome and spend some time searching through their vast archives.

Lamar also wrote:

Again, we can ask the very same question about secrets symbols and codes. There seems to be NO secret symbols uncovered ANYWHERE in South America, Jesuit or otherwise.

I have to respectfully disagree with you there my friend as well, and since you have made this claim I ask you now to prove it, that NO secret symbols have ever been uncovered anywhere in South America, Jesuit or otherwise. (You seem to be ill informed on this.)

Thank you for the interesting discussion, and my apologies to the group here for yet another LONG winded post, which is now about as far OFF topic as it can be. Perhaps we ought to start a new thread, if anyone cares to continue debating the various nearly un-related issues and subjects we have been covering here?

As always, good luck and good hunting to you Lamar and everyone, I hope you and everyone here find the treasures that you seek.
Your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Didn't Fr. Kino pass away in the year 1711...

yes he did ... in sounthern cal.

besides that look at the dates of 1701 and 1703 , this would have been when the kino was leaveing spainish lands and it would have been most unlikely he would stop to cast bars at that piont in time . these IMHO are fake , and i would have to beleive they would not have had just the word KIno on them . thats not something you would send to a king for payments ...you got to remember the jesuits were told to leave the kings land because they were takeing more then they were giveing ..or at lest thats what the king beleaved at the time of 1703 ...

whats with the pose , this piture is out reality . if he found something why hide his face in that shot .. lol i think he was LOL ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings everyone,

While I have no desire to cast aspersions upon the Society of Jesus, in the wake of earlier posts it seems that some clarification is necessary. While the expulsion and suppression of the Jesuits might really have been due to purely political reasons, this was not the expressed reasons at the time. Here is an extract:

Portugal
In 1750, Joseph I of Portugal appointed Sebastian Joseph Carvalho, afterwards Marquis of Pombal as his first minister. Carvalho's quarrel with the Jesuits began with a quarrel over an exchange of Territory with Spain. San Sacramento was exchanged for the Seven Reductions of Paraguay which were under Spain. The Society's wonderful missions there were coveted by the Portuguese, who believed the Jesuits were mining gold. So the Indians were ordered to quit their country; and the Jesuits endeavored to lead them quietly to the distant land allotted to them. But owing to the harsh conditions imposed, the Indians rose in arms against the transfer, and the so-called war of Paraguay ensued, which, of course, was disasterous to the Indians. Then step by step the quarrel with the Jesuits was pushed to extremities. The weak king was persuaded to remove them from Court; a war of pamphlets against him was commenced; the Fathers were first forbidden to undertake the temporal administration of the missions, and then they were deported from America.

On 1 April 1758, a brief was obtained from the aged pope Benedict XIV, appointing Cardinal Saldanha to investigate the allegations against the Jesuits, which had been raised in the King of Portugal's name. But it does not follow that the pope had forejudged the case against the order. On the contrary, if we take into view all the letters and instructions sent to the Cardinal, we see that the pope was distinctly skeptical as to the gravity of the alleged abuses. He ordered a minute inquiry, but one conducted so as to safeguard the reputation of the Society. All matters of serious importance were to be referred back to himself. The pope died five weeks later on 3 May. On 15 May, Saldanha, having received the Brief only a fortnight before, omitting the thorough house-to-house visitation that had been ordered, and pronouncing on the issues which the pope had reserved to himself, declared that the Jesuits were guilty of having exercised illicit, public, and scandalous commerce both in Portugal and in its colonies.

(source The Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm)

Spain, Naples, and Parma
The Suppression in Spain, and its quasi-dependencies, Naples and Parma, and in the Spanish colonies was carried through by autocratic kings and ministers. Their deliberations were conducted in secrecy, and they purposely kept their deliberations to themselves. It is only in late years that a clue has been traced back to Bernardo Tenucci, the anti-clerical minister of Naples, who acquired a great influence over Charles III before the king passed from the throne of Naples to that of Spain. In this minister's correspondence are found all the ideas which from time to time guided the Spanish policy. Charles, a man of good moral character, had entrusted his government to the Count Aranda and other followers of Voltaire; and he had brought from Italy a finance minister, whose nationality made the government unpopular, while his exactions led in 1766 to rioting and the publications of various squibs, lampoons, and attacks upon the administration. An extraordinary council was appointed to investigate the matter, as it was declared that people so simple as rioters could never have produced the political pamphlets. They proceeded to take secret information, the tenor of which is no longer known; but records remain to show that in September, the council had resolved to incriminate the Society, and that by 29 January 1767, its expulsion was settled. Secret orders, which were to be opened at midnight between the first and second of April, 1767, were sent to the magistrates of every town where a Jesuit resided. The plan worked smoothly. That morning, 6000 Jesuits were marching like convicts to the coast, where they were deported, first to the Papal States, and ultimately to Corsica.

(ibid)

If anyone would be interested in reading an English translation of the royal decree expelling the Jesuits and seizing their properties, it is online at: http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=244

I have been unable to locate an online copy of the Papal Brief of 1773 suppressing the Jesuit order, if anyone knows of a link I would appreciate if they would post it.

Oroblanco