Treasure hunting becoming banned in all states???

[frankie]

Great job Darren!! Man we need a few more good guys like you around. We all need to work together. And things can and should be worked out to be not one sided.

 

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[Honest Samuel]

You answered your own question

Thanks for taking action, everyone! Keep 'em coming!

As Karl used to say and write, keep your big mouth shut, or you will lose your treasure.

 

[2Valen]

Stop the B/S government, and we need less laws not more.

 

[Alexia123]

I am loving this discussion . Cheers!

 

[MD_DET_001]

Seems like more pompous "academics" lobbying government that only they are intelligent enough to detect and recover a site.
I have worked in corporate America enough to realize that there's "Knowledge" and there's "Know-How"....there's the theoretical and the practical.
I have seen enough degreed, "educated idiots" in action, even PHDs, to be certain that a college degree does not automatically guarantee intelligence....certainly not competence.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Stop the B/S government, and we need less laws not more.

exactly. Whenever someone sees a post title to the effect of "md'ing" + "banned", guess what they want to do ? They want to rush to the government to seek clarification, swatting a bunch of hornet's nests, asking "Can I metal detect ?" type questions. Why ? : Because, .... shucks ...., they're afraid they'll get in trouble , after seeing "scary post titles like this one ". Eh ?

But what they don't realize, is that when they rush around seeking sanctions and express "yes you can" edicts, is that : Instead of getting more doors OPENED for them, they end up bumping into the "No one cared UNTIL you asked" psychology.

So in other words, the more we rush to the govt. to get laws that expressly allow us , we end up getting more laws AGAINST US. Because we kept making ourselves a giant bullseye, asking all these "pressing questions", and thus get "safe answers" .

Thus it is actually the LESS attention, not the MORE attention, that is best for our hobby. The LESS people think about us, the better. Not the MORE.

 

[ARC]

The U.S. needs to adopt its own version... period.

Treasure Act 1996

An Act to abolish treasure trove and to make fresh provision in relation to treasure.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The U.S. needs to adopt its own version... period.

Treasure Act 1996

An Act to abolish treasure trove and to make fresh provision in relation to treasure.

www.legislation.gov.uk

No, we don't . You have to realize that there's an underlying principle in Britain, that brought about their laws. And that "underlying principle" doesn't exist here.

Namely, that any wealth, under the soil, belongs to the crown. Eg.: Oil, minerals, and , yes, treasure troves. So for example: Here in the USA, if you find oil on your land, YOU'RE RICH ! (think "Beverly Hillbillies"). But in England, if you find oil on your land, it belongs to the crown.

Here in the USA, if you find a treasure trove on Farmer Bob's land, it's TOTALLY BETWEEN YOU AND FARMER BOB how you want to split it. And we too find the "market value". It's called "ebay", where it gets driven up to the market value.

The British system is highly misunderstood by USA md'rs. Some people here seem to think it provides some sort of carte-blanche to detect cool sites. But nothing could be further from the truth. They have all sorts of laws governing their sensitive monuments and public lands too (why do you think that 99% of UK hunters hunt private land ?) . So their trove laws have nothing to do with where you can and can't hunt.

If anyone ever tried to suggest having a "version" of that system here, I can guarantee you that, by the time it's done winding its way through bureaucratic channels (landing on the desks of purist archies for their princely input) that you would end up with MORE restrictions. Not LESS restrictions.

Hence : The LESS they think about us, the better. We do NOT want a "version " of that law here. The LAST thing we would/should want, is more govt. intrusion.

 

[dsrtdwg1]

Additional laws, rules or regulations only muddy the waters....leading to more of the same.

 

[ARC]

No, we don't . You have to realize that there's an underlying principle in Britain, that brought about their laws. And that "underlying principle" doesn't exist here.

Namely, that any wealth, under the soil, belongs to the crown. Eg.: Oil, minerals, and , yes, treasure troves. So for example: Here in the USA, if you find oil on your land, YOU'RE RICH ! (think "Beverly Hillbillies"). But in England, if you find oil on your land, it belongs to the crown.

Here in the USA, if you find a treasure trove on Farmer Bob's land, it's TOTALLY BETWEEN YOU AND FARMER BOB how you want to split it. And we too find the "market value". It's called "ebay", where it gets driven up to the market value.

The British system is highly misunderstood by USA md'rs. Some people here seem to think it provides some sort of carte-blanche to detect cool sites. But nothing could be further from the truth. They have all sorts of laws governing their sensitive monuments and public lands too (why do you think that 99% of UK hunters hunt private land ?) . So their trove laws have nothing to do with where you can and can't hunt.

If anyone ever tried to suggest having a "version" of that system here, I can guarantee you that, by the time it's done winding its way through bureaucratic channels (landing on the desks of purist archies for their princely input) that you would end up with MORE restrictions. Not LESS restrictions.

Hence : The LESS they think about us, the better. We do NOT want a "version " of that law here. The LAST thing we would/should want, is more govt. intrusion.

What in gods green earth are you babbling about ?

Its not legal here to treasure hunt ... At all... there is NOT one place that its legal to treasure hunt and keep any said treasures found...
In fact its not even technically legal for you to even search for a treasure on anything but private land.

You are also misinformed... In the U.K... your ARE PAID for anything found that they may want... OR you get to keep the item.

HERE they WILL take everything from you... and you can bet your arse if its found anywhere... EXCEPT private land... you will loose everything.

Even on private land... IF its considered a historical item... AND especially anything archaeological... your done.
Private land or not.

God forbid you find anything on public lands... shores... islands... in ANY water... EVEN ON PRIVATE land (submerged lands act) or otherwise.

IF you think you can go and excavate ... and ride off in the sunset... "and get a spliT".... your sadly mistaken.

Other than the Beale Treasure on Billy Bobs Farm... you got nothing.

All other treasures will lay to claim.

 

[ARC]

THE ONLY "way" is to change the current power hungry lame unfair laws that are pretty much worthless in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

What in gods green earth are you babbling about ?

ARC, let's unpack your post, point by point :

You say : " ....Its not legal here to treasure hunt ... At all... there is NOT one place that its legal to treasure hunt and keep any said treasures found... "

Huh ? Not legal to treasure hunt in the USA ? People treasure hunt here all the time. Because you acknowledge in the next breath that it IS legal on private land here, when you add : "..on anything but private land." Right ? Thus the "illegal to treasure hunt in the USA " assertion is only for public land.

AND I WOULD AGREE ! Because, sure, if you find a "treasure" on BLM or NFS or any city or county park, and if you were to walk in to their bureaucratic offices asking "Hi, can I keep this ?", then sure : Their obligatory answer would be "no". (and then, gee, aren't ya glad ya asked ? )

BUT SO TOO IS IT IN ENGLAND ! They have tons of off-limits public lands and sensitive monuments, just like we do. That, sure, if you asked long enough and hard enough, that you would get a "no" there as well. For example: Try to hunt around Stonehenge, find a treasure, and see if you're allowed to keep it, or get paid "fair market value for it".

So all the laws of splits and fair market value, etc... that you read about for the UK md'ing, is for private land. It is not something that allows carte-blanche treasure hunting on public land.

But I'll tell-ya-what : Since it is no secret for when $$ is paid out there by the crown, for any past troves, then : Can you give me any examples of a pay-out occuring for when a British hunter found a trove on PUBLIC land there ? My suspicion is that all the pay-outs are occuring for private land finds. Not any public land finds.

If you can cite me an incident of the crown paying out, via the treasure-trove laws, for a trove found on some form of public land there, then I will stand corrected.

But even if I get corrected on this point, I still say it would be playing-with-dynamite to ever try to suggest we implement a system here in the USA. Because guaranteed : It will land on various govt. purist archie's desks for input. And then guess what's gonna happen ? You and I will end up with MORE RULES AGAINST US. Not for us. Ie.: Sure as sh*t someone's gonna say : "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos out with metal detectors on our beaches , since , gasp, they *might* find a treasure ??"


You say : "....You are also misinformed... In the U.K... your ARE PAID for anything found that they may want... OR you get to keep the item...."

Wonderful ! But guess what ?? SO TOO DOES THE SAME THING EXIST ALREADY in the USA. You can get "Paid" for something you find here, d/t to the ingenious invention of Ebay. Or you can elect not-to-sell it, and keep it on your own mantle place. Ok ?

You say : "...HERE they WILL take everything from you... and you can bet your arse if its found anywhere... EXCEPT private land... you will loose everything......"

We're talking about treasure troves. Right ? Not fumble fingers individual coins and such, right ? If so, I've already agreed that there are laws that forbid "harvest and remove". And there are "cultural heritage laws", that, yes, can be invoked to forbid you and I from keeping a jar of coins we just found, on public land. I agree.

But unless you can cite a treasure-trove-payout, in the UK, for a treasure found on public land, I think the same thing can be said of the UK. They too do not have "carte blanche" to detect public lands either. Why do you think that 99% of hunters there stick to private land ?

You say : "...Even on private land... IF its considered a historical item... AND especially anything archaeological... your done.
Private land or not...."

Huh ? In the prior breath, you said treasures on private land here are ok. But now you're flip-flopping and saying you can't find treasure on private land. What is your proof of that please ?

Because if I found a treasure in my backyard of Monterey, CA, and it is 51 or 101 yrs. old (thus "archaeological"), I GUARANTEE you that I can keep it. And I can even boast about it in the next-day's newspaper headlines for the world to see. And : I will not be running afoul of any laws.

If you have some link the contrary, I would very much like to see it.

There is perpetual news clippings of treasures found here in the USA on private land. And NO ONE IS RUSHING to confiscate them. For example : Construction workers who find a hidden wall safe in a building they're tearing down. Or a ditch-digger who stumbles on to a cache. Or an md'r who gets permission from Farmer Bob, finds a jar full of gold coins, and gleefully shows it off on T'net show & tell. NO ONE IS COMING TO THEM SAYING : "You can't have that".

Therefore, what the heck are you talking about ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

THE ONLY "way" is to change the current power hungry lame unfair laws that are pretty much worthless in the grand scheme of things.

I certainly would love "red carpets rolled out for me". I too find the "cultural heritage " laws to cramp my style. I too dislike the laws that forbid "alter and deface" or "harvest and remove". Ok ? So we agree on all this .

But the moment you try to "change the current unfair laws" (seeking to get express allowances and red carpets rolled out) is the minute you can REALLY kiss your USA hobby goodbye.

The reality is : That you can metal detect here, and find cool stuff, TILL YOUR ARMS FALL OFF ! If you doubt me, all you have to do is take a quick look down the pages of the "Today's Finds" show & tell section. USA md'rs gleefully showing off their trophies. We love seeing each other's finds, so we triumphantly collect our atteboys, we compete, etc... And guess what ? : No one is tracking down those legions of posters saying : "You can't keep that" or "You broke a law by finding that".

The only time you see someone getting their chops busted here in the USA, is if someone is night-sneaking an obvious historic sensitive monument. Or someone being obnoxious who can't take a "scram". Or someone who finds a treasure of Atocha proportions, and then would gleefully announce : "Found at Grand canyon park" or "found in Yosemite" . Or even "found in such & such city park" .

If someone is that stupid, to find a super big cache, and parade it around a bunch of archies like that, then sure, perhaps someone's gonna get their panties in a wad. But I guarantee you that if you started a campaign to change this, that you will only end up with more laws AGAINST US. Not FOR us.

 

[ARC]

I am not referring to a coin that someone metal detected and posted here... thisis "tolerable" by the "theys"... this is not what a "trove" or any other life changing find

I am referring to shipwrecks... cargo... Indian cache of gold.... of which several exist here in Fl. waiting to be found.. those sorts of things.

The right way to protect these historical valued items is to legitimize the discovery of them and reward those who followed the rules... rules enacted with a fair value to be determined... and said fair share paid to whom who found said treasure.
Everyone wins.

Currently... same said treasure may sneak off... never to be seen or enjoyed by anyone other than the finder(s)...
Never documented... never studied... never learned from... never... shall i continue.

You find something of value... fair value should be due upon receipt... IF its deemed important... or of historical value or need by "they".
IF not... then it remains the sole property of the finder.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The right way to protect these historical valued items is to legitimize the discovery of them and reward those who followed the rules... rules enacted with a fair value to be determined... and said fair share paid to whom who found said treasure.
Everyone wins.

ARC , I agree with you that it would be so cool to be able to "walk off public land" with caches, and have Uncle Sam come and thrust the "fair value" into my hand. I agree that "red carpets rolled out for me" would be so much more soothing. And I agree that it would be "so cool" to see our stuff in museums, for all to enjoy.

Ok ? So we agree on all those things. Right ? BUT THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS !

Because the moment we go trying to get the laws in our favor, is the moment that things will only get worse. Any time anyone has ever gone seeking express blessings and allowances, in this hobby, in the USA, is invariably when silly rules start to riddle the process.

Examples are places where "permits" have ever been dreamed up. At first blush, it sounds wonderful to have a "permit", eh ? It conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly-willy carte-blanche, eh ? Thus who wouldn't love a 'Permit'. Because then they don't need to look over their shoulder, blah blah blah Right ?

But notice that whenever any location ever implements a "permit" (no doubt because md'rs went in swatting hornets nests in the past) that it's invariably riddled with sillyness. Eg.: Yes but you can't dig. Or 'turn in all objects to the park office'. Or 'digger tool shall not exceed 3" in length". Or "not around any trees". Or "yes on sandy beaches only". Blah blah blah. And often time these rules come to places that, quite frankly, NO ONE EVER HAD A PROBLEM PRIOR TO THIS !

But the moment any got a stink-eye, or the moment some md'r saw a dire-sounding rule (that says he can't keep a cache), then presto: He rushes off to city hall or state govt., with his eyes waxing romantic about the UK laws. And he wants express yes's here too. And thus : Presto, another silly rule is born, or another "no" is passed out. Or another rule is invented.

Thus again: The last thing we need is MORE attention. If you are worried silly that you might find the "indian cache of gold" in FL that you allude to, then to try to preemptively change legislation, that is somehow going to allow you to keep that (or get paid for it), is SURE to be met with more rules AGAINST us. Not FOR us.

So if you find that indian cache of gold in FL, why can't you just keep quiet ? For example, my buddies and I have found some gold coins here in CA (some of which are worth up to $10k). And we have fun doing show & tell, videos, etc... AND AT NO POINT did we ever need to say : Found here at such & such park or forest or beach or whatever. And no one has ever come to my house asking questions . And if ever someone did, presto: I found it in my backyard.

I know that sucks to not be able to joyously say "found at such & such park" (it would certainly add to the fun of the provenance, I agree). But your solutions to this problem, to go swat hornet's nests asking for govt. blessings, is only going to make matters worse. Because trust me: It WILL cross the desk of purist govt. archies. Who, if they have their way, would already be banning md'ing everywhere. So therefore : The LESS they think of us, the better.

 

[RobNC]

Done. But just curious: why do you think this would necessarily spread to the land site hunters? Seems to be only aimed at the highly lucrative wrecks (gold bars, etc...) not land hunting for common singular coins, relics, etc...

Although I DO see that the principle can "cross over", if you construed it enough. Ie.: no one pays attention to the geek with a detector in a school yard, sand box, or whatever. But if the city or state found out the guy had just found a stash of gold bars worth a fortune in the turf or sandbox, I guess all of the sudden, someone would say "hey, that belongs to the city (or county, or state, etc....). So I guess it's all a measure of the worth/value, as to the threshold of whether or not someone cares less?

Like everything else in the world today.. "If we can get away with this, it would open the door to banning something else."
Sad but true, those that enjoy power and the exercise of it will continue to do so. And usually it is in a stupid way to benefit their own interests.
It might be about bars of gold in the sea right now, but guarantee you that if a victory is secured and they can ban it in the water, they will move to banning it elsewhere if they can get away with it.

I'm with Darren in NC on this one. Don't budge an inch, we have enough problems already trying to detect on land, we surely don't need the misconception that we're digging up bags of silver and gold on land when in reality we are dang lucky enough to find a coin in the midst of pull tabs.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... they will move to banning it elsewhere if they can get away with it....

And guess what's the fastest way to put it on their plate, as a "pressing issue that needs to be addressed" ? It would be to go asking for express sanctions, yes's , and princely blessings.

So why oh why oh why do md'rs keep wanting to swat hornet's nests ? Let's leave good enough alone. And the UK situation has utterly no bearing on the USA.

 

[Riverbum]

I just read a news article concerning a Treasure Hunter ,Tommy Thompson. Apparently lots of Treasure Hunter know this story, of course I'm just now finding out the story. Starting his SIXTH year in prison for refusing to disclose the location of GOLD COINS he found. He did have investors which may have mucked up the waters for this man. Such an incredible mis-carraige of justice, but goes to show that if found, you really need to keep your mouth SHUT.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I just read a news article concerning a Treasure Hunter ,Tommy Thompson. ....

Got a link please ? Thanx.

 

[Riverbum]

Got a link please ? Thanx.

Currently on the FOX news internet site