tickets and fines for detecting

[Tom_in_CA]

When the risk/legalities of md'ing particular spots comes up, there is often the fear of tickets, fines, etc... being tossed out there. As the reason to not go, or ask permission, etc... And sometimes I have challenged those persons to cite such an example, if they have one, for if it's a seemingly innocuous place currently being discussed. So for example, the silly notion that you can be "fined, confiscated", etc... for merely having a detector in your trunk, while driving a throughfair road that passes through a national park.

But sure enough, sometimes someone can in fact come up with some admittedly scary links. Like this one for instance:

Metal Detecting Laws And What You Should Know.

Filled with stories of persons getting seriously roughed up for picking up an arrowhead or bottle, etc... The implication being: "Therefore we md'rs must grovel for permission, seek clarifications, etc.. Afterall, you don't want to be arrested like those people, right ?

And when someone comes up with these scary stories to answer my challenge, I have likened it to the potential of a motorist being pulled over and roughed up, for nothing but a tail-light out. In other words: SURE! fluke extreme stories are bound to exist, IN ANY ARENA.

So I had to chuckle as I clipped this out of the newspaper a few days ago. A fellow given a ticket, for eating a hamburger while driving. It was considered "distracted driving".

Ok, let's see a show of hands now: Now that I've shown proof-positive that you can be ticketed for eating while driving: Who here is going to stop eating while driving?

 

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[Nugs Bunny]

Civil War relic thief engaged in 'heartbreaking' destruction - U.S. News

Civil War relic thief engaged in 'heartbreaking' destruction


Buckets of Civil War bullets seized by the government after a search at John J. Santo's home. Scientific archeological data is lost forever because the exact location of the finds was not recorded.

A Virginia man convicted of taking more than 9,000 artifacts from a Civil War battlefield was engaged in "heartbreaking" destruction of American history, experts say.
John Jeffrey Santo, 52, has been sentenced to 366 days in prison and must also pay $7,346 restitution to the Petersburg National Battlefield for damage caused by his excavations, according to the decision handed down Wednesday by U.S. District Court Judge James Spencer.

Santo, who is unemployed and a native of Pennsylvania, used a metal detector and sometimes his dog to look for Civil War-era artifacts that he could collect and sell.

Relic hunting is like ripping a page from a book, Randy Jones, spokesman for the Virginia Department of Historic Resources, told msnbc.com. Part of an an artifact's true value comes from the context it is discovered in, he explained.
"It happens more than we know about," James Blankenship, a historian at the Petersburg National Battlefield, told msnbc.com. "The biggest loss is the loss of historic information."
According to the Richmond Times-Dispatch, investigators recovered more than 9,000 relics, including bullets, buckles, cannonballs, breastplates and buttons when they caught up with Santo last year. Authorities also found a handwritten journal the man kept of his illegal excavation trips, which happened regularly between 2006 and 2010.



Union Army soldier's belt buckle. Unauthorized excavation may have disturbed a soldier's grave.

The defendant's journal is a tell-all of his misconduct, identifying with a high degree of specification where he engaged in metal detecting/relic hunting and when and what he recovered," Assistant U.S. Attorney N. George Metcalf wrote in federal court papers.
"He even kept a running tally of the items he found from day to day on a yearly basis."
Blankenship said in one instance Santo wrote about discovering five buttons in one place, which suggests that a previously undiscovered body of a soldier had been buried there.

Santo pleaded guilty in December to two counts of damaging archaeological resources and one count of pillaging Petersburg National Battlefield. He is regarded as the park's most prolific relic thief.
"It's just heartbreaking," Julia Steele, an archaeologist and the battlefield's cultural resource manager told msnbc.com. Steele said Santo systematically pillaged several sites to the point that the scene made her physically ill.
With TV shows such as the recently launched "American Digger," Steele said pop culture tends to glorify relic hunting. Many people see it as a "treasure hunt," she said.



Petersburg Battlefield, April 1865.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Man arrested digging up Civil War artifacts at Kennesaw Mountain | www.wsbradio.com

Man arrested digging up Civil War artifacts at Kennesaw Mountain



The Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park stands as more than a scenic memorial to one of the Civil War's defining battles. It was the most-visited battlefield site in the nation in 2012, surpassing Gettysburg for the year. The park is a 2,923 acre National Battlefield that preserves a Civil War battleground of the Atlanta Campaign. Opposing forces maneuvered and fought here from June 19, 1864 until July 2, 1864.

KENNESAW —
Apparently a Cherokee County man thought, if there was ever a good time to look for Civil War artifacts at Kennesaw Mountain, a partial government shutdown would be perfect.
He was wrong.
Rangers are still on the job at national battlefield on Cheatham Hill Road. They caught the man taking his metal detector to the park and digging up artifacts.
A Cobb County police officer spotted the man heading into one of the most “archeological sensitive areas of the park,” said Park Ranger Anthony Winegar.
Rangers waited until the man returned to his car with his goodies.
“He did appear to have several objects that were from the Civil War time period,” Winegar told Channel 2 Action News.
The suspect, only described as a man from Cherokee County, is facing several federal charges. The items have been seized.
Warnings are up in several spots around the battlefield to warn people that digging for artifacts is illegal. This area is where the main union assault of the Kennesaw Mountain campaign took place.
Rangers say stealing the items is like stealing from history.
“A particular bullet fired from particular style of gun can tell us where the round was fired from and what types of equipment of the lines was issues,” said Winegar. “That’s very valuable for historians for recreating the battle later on.”
Normally, an archaeologist would be called in to check out the area where the suspect found the items, but because of the shutdown, that is on hold.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

"They want to show people that this is a serious offense," she said.

Best metal detectors, fisher metal detectors, garrett metal detectors, gold dredges

By DAVID B. CARUSO
.c The Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - In just a few hours of digging at Valley Forge National Historical Park, prosecutors said Alfred Lucien unearthed the kind of finds amateur treasure hunters dream of.

A musket ball. A locket. A pewter button. Studs, buckles and fasteners that may once have adorned the uniforms of soldiers at the turning point of the Revolutionary War.

It was the sort of haul park rangers dread to hear about as they try to protect the dwindling number of rare artifacts buried at national parks.

In 2002, the National Park Service recorded nearly 11,000 violations of the Archaeological Resources Protection Act, which prohibits people from destroying or removing rare or valuable objects found on federal land, according to Park Service spokesman Al Nash.

"This is a challenge that we've faced since the parks were created," Nash said. "We struggle with people who want to take a piece of something home with them, whether it is a relic from a battlefield or whether it is a plant, or an antler or a skull, or some stone from a national park."

The penalties can be severe.

Federal prosecutors this month charged Lucien, 70, of New York, with illegally unearthing artifacts during his family outing 3 1/2 years ago at Valley Forge, about 15 miles west of Philadelphia. He faces fines and possible jail time if convicted. Charged with him was a Pennsylvania man accused of collecting three nails from the site of a former blacksmith's shop.

Lucien's wife objected to the criminal charge in a telephone interview last week, saying it was too harsh for an otherwise law-abiding retiree. But Valley Forge National Historical Park Deputy Superintendent Barbara Pollarine said prosecutors hope the case acts as a deterrent.

"They want to show people that this is a serious offense," she said.

Artifact looting isn't a crisis at Valley Forge, Pollarine said, in part because so little remains of Washington's encampment. The park did not become federally protected until 1976. In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the annual site of enormous Boy Scout jamborees, during which the scouts were encouraged to scavenge for artifacts.

"We still get letters from people offering to return things," Pollarine said.

The problems can be worse at Civil War battlefields, where thousands of tourists visit with their eyes peeled for that rare souvenir.

During the summertime at Gettysburg National Military Park, rangers have weekly encounters with casual artifact hunters, said Ranger Rick Pearce. Most are people with good intentions who are unaware of park rules, he said.

A few are hard-core scavengers. Pearce recalled two men who were arrested after one was spotted strolling the fields with a metal-detecting wand strapped to his leg and hidden under his pants.

The park has had some success warding off treasure hunters with a force of 120 volunteers who patrol the 6,000-acre battlefield day and night. Artifact looting has dropped considerably since the Park Watch Patrol program began in 1996, Pearce said.

Federal authorities also have tried other deterrents.

People who pleaded guilty to trolling for artifacts were required to take out newspaper advertisements describing the hefty fines they had to pay for their misdeeds at the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park and Manassas National Battlefield Park in Virginia.

An Alabama man was sentenced to two years probation after he pleaded guilty in August to relic hunting at Vicksburg National Military Park in Mississippi.

In one of the biggest relic-looting cases to date, several people pleaded guilty last year to being involved in a scheme to steal artifacts, including American Indian remains, from sites including Death Valley National Park. Five were sentenced either to prison or house arrest and ordered to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in restitution.

"It's fun to go snooping. But if you find something, look at it. enjoy it, and leave it for someone else to find," Nash said.

On the Net:

National Park Service: www.nps.gov

 

[Nugs Bunny]

http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/12/alabama_man_given_probabation.html

Alabama man given probation for digging at Civil War site



Ernest Taylor of Foley was accused of searching for Civil War relics at Vicksburg National Military Park
VICKSBURG, Mississippi — An Alabama man has been given three years' probation and been told to stay out of national military parks after an unauthorized dig at the Vicksburg National Military Park.
The Vicksburg Post reports that Ernest Taylor of Foley pleaded guilty last month in federal court to altering or defacing an archaeological resource, a felony. He was sentenced Nov. 28.
Court documents show Taylor, his wife and son were arrested Sept. 3, 2010 using a metal detector and digging holes at the park for Civil War relics.
Supervising Park Ranger Patty Montague says about 30 holes were found at the park and iron artillery shell fragments were found in Taylor's possession.
It is a violation of federal law to dig in or otherwise disturb national parks or wildlife refuges.
Montague said Taylor's wife was charged with a misdemeanor and paid a fine, and his son, 18 at the time, was not prosecuted.
The Vicksburg park was established by Congress in 1899 as a memorial to the 1863 campaign and siege of Vicksburg. Nearly 1,400 monuments, markers, tablets and plaques commemorate the military action and those who fought during the Siege of Vicksburg.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Nugs, whenever I've challenged persons to cite examples of : arrests, confiscations, jail, fines, etc.... You will notice that I do indeed say that if any examples are forthcoming, they will no doubt be for someone sneaking around: "obvious historic sensitive monuments".

Your two citations are just that. Hence they have no bearing on run-of-the-mill parks, beaches, schools, forests, etc....

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Illegal Relic Hunter Is Sentenced

​

Illegal Relic Hunter Is Sentenced

By Deborah Fitts
- June 2002- MANASSAS, Va

A man convicted of relic-hunting in Manassas National Battlefield Park has been sentenced to pay $2500 to advertise in local papers warning against the illegal activity.

Kurt Moser, 25, of Tremont, Pa., was caught one night early last August as he and a companion were digging up artifacts along a trail that follows the park's unfinished railroad bed, a key feature of the battlefield.

In December Moser pled guilty to one felony count for violation of the federal Archaeological Re-sources Protection Act, plus one misdemeanor count involving relic-hunting at Gettysburg National Military Park. Besides the $2500 for newspaper advertising, he was sentenced to two years' probation and compensatory damages of $1840.

Manassas Park Ranger Scott Ryan said he nabbed Moser and Bruce Kemmery, 47, of Hamburg, Pa., around 1:30 a.m. as the two men, clad in camouflage outfits, were employing metal detectors and digging with Buck knives. Park officials counted 36 holes along a half-mile of the trail.

Kemmery faces sentencing July 12. Ryan said that while Moser cooperated with law-enforcement officials and prosecutors, Kemmery did not, and agreed to plead guilty only after he was indicted by a grand jury. His two charges were identical to Moser's. Ryan said that because of Moser's cooperation he was treated "more leniently," and Kemmery will receive a stiffer sentence. As part of his plea he has already agreed to pay $2500 for advertising, plus restitution of $8259.

The two men provided a photographic record of their crime, according to Ryan. A search warrant at Moser's house turned up photos that documented the pair's tourist activities at the Manassas park during the day, while at night the photos depict relics laid out on the motel room floor.

The two men were caught on what Ryan said was actually their second relic-hunting visit, following another at the park the previous week. The park recovered about 30 minie and musket balls, a metal plate, a roll-top from a can, a brass ornament, an artillery fragment, a button fragment, and a mass of lead from bullets that had melted together.
One of the most interesting items was a rare, .69-caliber minie ball made in Austria, a type of bullet that was imported by the South.

According to Ryan, Kemmery was convicted in 1995 of possession of a metal detector on the Gettysburg battlefield, a misdemeanor, after a park ranger found him walking along a road carrying the detector and a sack with camouflage clothing.​

 

[57chevy]

I am wonderi8ng, if these items are so historically significant, why aren't the archeologists out there finding them?

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Nugs, whenever I've challenged persons to cite examples of : arrests, confiscations, jail, fines, etc.... You will notice that I do indeed say that if any examples are forthcoming, they will no doubt be for someone sneaking around: "obvious historic sensitive monuments".

Your two citations are just that. Hence they have no bearing on run-of-the-mill parks, beaches, schools, forests, etc....

I thought we were talking about National Parks...

So for example, the silly notion that you can be "fined, confiscated", etc... for merely having a detector in your trunk, while driving a throughfair road that passes through a national park.

"They want to show people that this is a serious offense"

And that is what I am trying to show... that they take this seriously. My examples are to show how many people knowingly sneak into these places to hunt.

What are the odds if caught with a metal detector in a National Park they will trust you were not going to use it?

 

[Nugs Bunny]

I am wonderi8ng, if these items are so historically significant, why aren't the archeologists out there finding them?

Read the first article I posted very carefully, they claim the problem is... the location of his finds were not recorded so the history is lost. Then they claim he had a journal that he recorded the locations and artifacts he found on a daily basis. His record keeping is how they busted him for selling the artifacts. 18,000 bullets recorded... only 9,000 recovered.

Archies always protect places the will never excavate or study and it makes no sense. The history is lost if it remains buried just as much as if it's dug up without their knowledge.

I think ALL these battle fields should be metal detected, and the artifacts placed in a on site museum for all to enjoy. They do no good rotting away in the ground or in a private collection.

Metal detecting would be the best way to recover artifacts with minimal damage and if done properly could record a wealth of historical information that would surpass the slow moving process of the archeologists.

This history belongs to ALL of us and it's a shame they preserve the artifacts in the soil instead of display cases.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Looks like another one for anti-detecting magazine Nugs. I think you missed the point again.

Those came straight from the latest issue of Anti Detecting America...

Like I said before... the handful of idiots that can't follow the rules ruin it for those of us who can.

This thread is tickets and fines while detecting, and it's featured in next month's issue of Anti Detecting America... By nature this thread will contain anti detecting related material.

Perhaps one should start a "doing good deeds while detecting" or "be careful not to trespass" thread if they wish to cast us in a positive light.

It seems to me the ones that complain the most about our bad image... are also the biggest contributors towards that bad image... think about it for a minute...

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Nugs ,lets not instill fear in someone that may want to detect by comparing clear restricted areas to ones that people normally detect without problems.

Let's not encourage somebody to trespass by offering flawed interpretations of the law...

 

[Nugs Bunny]

You also came up with this....

more serious misdemeanors likeburglary and grand theft might be punishable by some jail time.

 

[thrillathahunt]

Hmm, there will always be someone or a group of someones who are against something. That said, since I don't mountain climb, I should start an anti-mountain climbing blog. Or an anti- scuba diving magazine, or an anti- cycling magazine, etc. because you see, if you look at any particular recreational endeavor you will find something harmful or unhealthy or potentially destructive about it.
Science Proves Mountain Biking Is More Harmful Than Hiking

http://www.scuba-tutor.com/diving-environment/underwater-life/diving-negative-impacts.php

 

[Limitool]

Hell I've dug horseshoes from George Washington's, Abraham Lincolns, General Grants, Daniel Boones and many other famous past historical U.S. figures horses. Yes... HORSESHOES directly from the horses hooves that these men rode on. Never have I been fined or confronted and I've dug hundreds. I'm still looking for that last shoe from George Washington's horse which was rumored to be made of solid GOLD... This is the year....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Nugs, I admit I used the example of the "detector in trunk while passing through a national park". So you thought my post was *specifically* about "national parks". No, it wasn't. That was just an example of the silly-ness I read, where that particular one is offered as an example of the "imminent danger" that we face for having detector. I think you got "lost in the example". I could just as easily have chosen an example from a city or county or state level.

So the point of the post was not to dispute whether or not something is or isn't technically legal, but rather, the notion that arrests, tickets, jail, and confiscations are waiting for us at every turn (BARRING OBVIOUS HISTORIC SENSITIVE MONUMENT examples like you listed examples of)

 

[outdoorfunblonde]

I am wonderi8ng, if these items are so historically significant, why aren't the archeologists out there finding them?

Really, now... They consider every one of those bullets a "loss" to history because the guy didn't report them
C'mon guys! That's ridiculous. If anyone is interested in history, and MUST protect the area... then they'll find out where to do so, they don't have to wait for someone else's finds then be interested.
Especially items they made so many of... bullets, arrow heads ect.
Those who MD where they are'nt supposed to, and know it...and get in trouble, well, I don't feel sorry for them, BUT, there is gonna be history pretty much anywhere there was life, and to find something and report it all, I think is silly.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Nugs, I admit I used the example of the "detector in trunk while passing through a national park". So you thought my post was *specifically* about "national parks". No, it wasn't. That was just an example of the silly-ness I read, where that particular one is offered as an example of the "imminent danger" that we face for having detector. I think you got "lost in the example". I could just as easily have chosen an example from a city or county or state level.

So the point of the post was not to dispute whether or not something is or isn't technically legal, but rather, the notion that arrests, tickets, jail, and confiscations are waiting for us at every turn (BARRING OBVIOUS HISTORIC SENSITIVE MONUMENT examples like you listed examples of)

Considering metal detecting isn't inherently illegal... it would be near impossible to find accounts of people being fined or arrested for detecting where it's not restricted.

Keep in mind those who have faced legal repercussions were probably charged with other crimes, such as trespassing and destruction of property/vandalism.

In Ohio State parks, if detecting without a permit outside of authorized areas, one will be cited for violating Ohio Revised Code sections 1501:41-7-08 Metal detectors prohibited, 1501:41-3-10 Plants, 1501:41-3-11 Geological features.

If a City Park restricts metal detecting, you will be cited for violating whatever ordinance applies. For example some parks are off limits, some require a permit and some do not restrict detecting, but are closed between certain hours.

The larger cities in Ohio typically require a permit to detect in City parks, there are also several that are off limits all together. Most small towns are at the mercy of how the local police interpret the law. But typically they care less about detecting as long as you are not creating a mess. I had one officer from the neighboring town telling me I should go detect the old factory sites along the river, that's all City and State Property bordered by private property.

I understand where you are coming from, I have argued the same argument many times in regards to prospecting in California... two things come out of California... Good wine and bad politics.

In Ohio they are more concerned with causing VISIBLE damage and trespassing. So as long as you recover targets carefully and don't go where you don't belong the police tend to show more interest than anything else.

I'm not sure if you noticed but I stopped using the evil "dig" word as much and now refer to the act as "recovering a target"

Same thing with prospecting, many call it a "hobby"... West of the Mighty Mississippi that word is ten times eviler than "dig". When used on the forums it attracts more drama than Kemper.

The reason is there are laws that protect our right to prospect and mine for valuable minerals and resources... but they don't apply to hobbyists.

Here in Ohio that... evil word (please don't hurt me folks) "hobby" actually is a good thing. Hobby prospecting is not regulated by the mining laws... and here in Coal Country they are EXTENSIVE and EXPENSIVE!

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Really, now... They consider every one of those bullets a "loss" to history because the guy didn't report them
C'mon guys! That's ridiculous. If anyone is interested in history, and MUST protect the area... then they'll find out where to do so, they don't have to wait for someone else's finds then be interested.
Especially items they made so many of... bullets, arrow heads ect.
Those who MD where they are'nt supposed to, and know it...and get in trouble, well, I don't feel sorry for them, BUT, there is gonna be history pretty much anywhere there was life, and to find something and report it all, I think is silly.

That article was full of it, they also provide contradictory evidence, it appears as if he recorded the location of his finds. But the guy was way out of line by detecting a protected battle field.

Scientific archeological data is lost forever because the exact location of the finds was not recorded. Relic hunting is like ripping a page from a book...

Authorities also found a handwritten journal the man kept of his illegal excavation trips, The defendant's journal is a tell-all of his misconduct, identifying with a high degree of specification where he engaged in metal detecting/relic hunting and when and what he recovered, He even kept a running tally of the items he found from day to day

The location of bullets could help determine many things on a battlefield, but laying there undiscovered they are as useless as if somebody took them home. The real injustice is not to the park or the detecting community... it's letting that history rot away in the ground.

It would be nice to see them recruit metal detectorists to help recover and record the location of artifacts in these historic battlefields.

 

[releventchair]

Hell I've dug horseshoes from George Washington's, Abraham Lincolns, General Grants, Daniel Boones and many other famous past historical U.S. figures horses. Yes... HORSESHOES directly from the horses hooves that these men rode on. Never have I been fined or confronted and I've dug hundreds. I'm still looking for that last shoe from George Washington's horse which was rumored to be made of solid GOLD... This is the year....

You are ,as far as experienced at finding shoes in regards to approaching that gold shoe, just like digging pull tabs for gold rings, most certainly a "shoe in".