The WORST book on the Lost Dutchman Mine is...

[deducer]

Your statement makes little or no sense. As I said, the reader of all books have a responsibility to not take everything literally and project their own criteria and rules on someone else's work that was never written or intended to fall within that criteria. That is what you are doing, expecting sources to be factually and historically correct with complete documentation of every detail. That is unreasonable. Frank Alkire needs not be "absolved from all responsibility" for passing along his "false history". He gave his account as he knew it or as it was given to him by someone else. It is you who tries to force an unreasonable criteria onto his account. Mr. Alkire was not giving Allen an "Historical" account, he was giving Allen his personal account as he knew it. There is a difference and I'm afraid you do not understand that difference. Robert Joseph Allen was writing a story, a western folklore legend, a tale with various personal accounts, not an historical documentary, he has no need to "wash his hands of guilt" for fabricating information. That is what authors of Fiction literature do. It's pretty basic stuff actually.

Thanks for reading

Michael Swartz

Well written!!!

This is exactly why I will not take into consideration any given fact unless it is corroborated by an independent and unrelated source, and evenmore so when it isn't within the same discipline. For example, if I read a letter written by a Jesuit priest that indicates that Jesuit missions were the site of much economic activity, and then read an archaeology dig report that details evidence of economic activity a mission, I will then move past the hypothesis that Jesuit missions were the center of economic activity and start treating it as a fact.

 

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[Oroblanco]

So Columbus did discover America. And all he came here for were spices. It's in all the history books.

What!! When did this happen Boy howdy you miss a day visiting the forum and see what happen!

 

[cactusjumper]

Yeah it's true. I read about it somewhere. All I'm saying is that I feel every book written on the LDM is pretty much worthless A lot of here say and jumbled stories. Put em all under fiction in the library IMHO.

Horse,

I have to respectfully disagree. While the majority of books may indeed be classified as "fiction", there is a wealth of information in each and every one of them. I believe that most of the people who have been researching the LDM for years and decades, can separate the wheat from the chaff.

When a source for the author, assuming the author is not writing from personal experiences, creates "documented" evidence, it makes for a difficult hurdle to overcome. Having been part of the research to expose the truth in some of the more recent "documents" that have come to light, I can assure you it's no easy task.

A recent author was under pressure from her publisher to finish her book. That pressure, combined with illness that shortly took here life, did not really allow her the time to do the research that we have done. She was an excellent writer and might have uncovered the deceit with more time.

Is it important in a story that may have originated with large portions of fiction from the start? Seems like truth is always of some importance, especially for history buffs.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Some great points made here by Michael Swartz, he has really put the issues in their proper perspective.

I don't feel there are any "worst", or "best" LDM books. Some are more entertaining than others. They all fall in the catagory as Mr. Swartz noted, Western folklore legend and the different authors take different paths to present their stories and tales.

Sims Ely's, The Lost Dutchman Mine is the book I have read many times over. I feel I have memorized many of the pages. The Ely book is not really a well written book. It is easy to read and therefore leads a lot of people to believe it is a "good" book. I like the book, as I said I've read it almost 20 times.

Ely's book did not sell well in spite of the massive marketing effort it was given. It did not live up to it's expectations. Still it sold better than LDM books of the modern era. It was published by one of the largest publishing firms in the US and marketed in every area of the country.

Sim's Ely's book is 14 chapters, 178 pages, just under 58,000 words and written on a 6th grade reading level. The chapters are short, the longest is 23 pages, the shortest is 8 pages and the average chapter is 10 pages. Shorter chapters keep a reader engaged longer and the 6th grade reading level means an average reader could easily complete the book in an afternoon and evening.

The chapters are fairly disjointed but each one interesting in it's own way. You don't get the sense of what the Dutchman Mine is all about until chapter 8, half way through the book.

Chapter 1 tells the story of Adolph Ruth and Tex Barkley.
Chapter 2 jumps to a detailed account of Jim Bark.
Chapter 3 tells the Dr. Abraham Thorne story along with the Simon Novinger story.
Chapter 4 suddenly injects Jacob Weiser and tells of Dr. John D. Walker and Tom Weedin.
Chapter 5 tells the story of the Two Soldiers, Aaron Mason, Bob Bowen, AJ Doran, the Silver King and EA Panknin.
Chapter 6 jumps to the Joe Deering and John Chewning (Chunning) story.
Chapter 7 finally talks about Jacob Waltz, his life and Julia Thomas, Rhiney Petrasch.
Chapter 8 finally has Waltz telling the story of the Dutchman Mine (100 pages into the book).
Chapter 9 tells of corrobaration of Waltz's story by Helena Thomas, Rhiney and Herman Petrasch, AL and Fred Henshaw.
Chapter 10 takes a left turn and launches into cowboy stories and tales, Jimmy Gibson, Jim Anderson and others.
Chapter 11 tells the story of Silverlocke and Malm , George Scholey and Apache Jack.
Chapter 12 takes another left turn and launches into several indian tales, Watsky, Forbac, Henry, Pahsaum and Del-Shay.
Chapter 13 takes an about face and details the James Reavis land fraud and ends with the Don's Club.
Chapter 14 the strangest chapter of all, is stuck in as an afterthought with James Cravey's death and letters between Sheriffs Early and Boise.

The book ends on that strange note. Each chapter alone tells interesting stories and tales but the author doesnt weave the tales together, doing a poor job of tying them to the theme of the book. To me it's like reading 14 different and interesting short stories or articles , each one loosely related somehow to the Dutchman Mine if you use your imagination on some of them. Ely's book has become a classic on the Lost Dutchman since it was published in 1953.

Sims Ely is listed as the books author and the book was compiled from his manuscript and other various information sources. It has been insinuated John Willey was the books ghost writer but he was simply the Treasurer of Morrow and Company (the books publisher), and Willey was tagged as the man to handle the overseeing of the overall effort since the writing of the book required certain unique financial arrangements. Bruce Bliven put the book together for Ely and Morrow and Company.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Terry Soloman]

Every book - ever written - on "The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine," is a complete rip off, playing on the human emotion of greed. There is absolutely NOTHING, no solid evidence ANYWHERE that points to a rich gold mine in the Superstition Mountains, yet a complete INDUSTRY has been built around the fable.

I feel sorry for all of the “adventurers” that have lost their lives and life savings looking for something that simply isn’t there. There is a special place in hell for the hucksters and con men that led them there for personal gain and profit.

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

I don't know how well Ely's book sold, but there were 6 hardcover printings in the U.S. In addition to that, there were two hardback printings in England. There was also a softcover edition with one or two printings.

There are different numbers to be found here:

http://www.redlandsfortnightly.org/papers/duchmine.htm

Anyone getting interested in the LDM would do well to read this book.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Well written!!!

This is exactly why I will not take into consideration any given fact unless it is corroborated by an independent and unrelated source, and evenmore so when it isn't within the same discipline. For example, if I read a letter written by a Jesuit priest that indicates that Jesuit missions were the site of much economic activity, and then read an archaeology dig report that details evidence of economic activity a mission, I will then move past the hypothesis that Jesuit missions were the center of economic activity and start treating it as a fact.

Deducer,

If you do as you say, then you will never come to any hard conclusions regarding virtually every treasure hunting story. You will never leave your living room. HAHAHA The only thing a true treasure hunter can do, is try and separate as much wheat from as much chaff as possible, then take what we know, and head out to the mountains. Virtually every treasure story that had 100% verifiable info has been run down and found (again virtually). Sometimes you can only read what someone said, then judge by their previous actions whether want to put some stock in their word.

A perfect example is Milton "Doc" Noss with the Victorio Peak Story. It is true that he was a bully and a drunk. There is also evidence that he tried selling bricks painted gold and copper bars to people telling them they were gold. He got a guy named Charlie Ryan to invest in a lead mine. Doc said the lead ran about 90% pure. An assay said about 5-6% (which meant basically worthless). He bounced a bunch of checks. Many people judge Doc Noss by those actions. They don't look any further or deeper to see if there was a reason for what he did.

Someone that knew Doc Noss said that Doc had a few tricks he would pull. The first time he tried to sell one of his authentic gold bars, he took it to a banker he knew. The banker swore to keep the find a secret, so Doc told him he found this gold in a mountain range far from where he actually found it. Doc watched, and that weekend the mountains where he told the banker he found the gold was crawling with treasure hunters. So much for keeping a secret. He would make appointments with people to sell them gold bars, and if he became suspicious of those people, instead of gold bars, he would bring either a copper bar or a gold painted brick to their meeting. He would not take their money, but tell them to have the gold bar checked out first. When it wasn't gold they would get mad and leave. Doc was safe. Remember, back then it was illegal for regular folk to have more than five ounces of gold. Turns out the lead mine Doc interested Ryan in was near the base of Victorio Peak. Since he had divorced his wife, he hadn't had access to the peak. Looks like the lead mine was his way of getting into the lower caverns.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Terry

These books are not turistic guides to the LDM . Are based in research , documents and all together have the pack to make an image about the LDM legend . Evidences how the legend may be truth , exist . You are one of those who believed and searched for it .

I believe each book on the LDM legend , has his personality and every reader would appreciate an " favorite " in regards with his conception .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Marhew - what would your book have and the sequence?

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you all for your opinions and views posted; some great posts amigos.

I have to agree with Cactusjumper's post, that there is good information and even real history in a fair number of books on the LDM, or any lost treasure for that matter. The fact that they are about the LDM or any lost treasure, does not by definition, make them works of "fiction" despite what some people think.

A number of authors seem to have taken the position that since they believe the whole LDM story is a fiction, it is perfectly acceptable, even popular, to add more fiction to it. The excuses given as, for instance to make it more readable and enjoyable, are very poor excuses. We might as well start adding in alien beam ships to the history of WW 2 to make it more exciting since many people today like aliens in their science fiction.

In my opinion, an author whom includes information as truthful, which he or she believes to be truthful but is proven to be false, is much less at fault (if at all) than the author whom blends in false information that he or she knows to be false, and presenting it as truth, then claiming that it is ALL fiction so everything is fair game.

At core is the question of whether the author believed the LDM ever existed or not - if the author does not believe, then this should be the case presented in his/her book, not simply add fiction to facts. I used the term facts there because there are a number of facts concerning the LDM, it is not pure fiction. There really was a person named Jacob Waltz; he lived in Phoenix, the Bradshaws, California etc and came from Germany originally; he was directly involved in prospecting and mining for much of his adult life, successfully. A number of sources report having witnessed Waltz selling small to medium amounts of very rich gold ore in various towns in Arizona, not in the Bradshaws or California but surrounding the Superstitions, and some of these people attempted to follow him back to his mine, unsuccessfully. Waltz told something to his friends in his last days, attempting to tell them how to find the mine and remaining cache of ore, and all of these friends then proceeded to hunt for the mine after his passing. Not a word of these handful of statements is fiction. It is a moral crime to add in false information that one knows to be false, to factual information, in my opinion.
A fiction-packed book on the LDM may well still make for a great read, and be very entertaining - however it should be not only classed as fiction by the Library of Congress, but be plainly labeled as fiction on the book itself. This is not the case in many examples, like the one authored by mr. Allen cited earlier, the cover boldly states it is the "true story". Here is the cover of that book, note that it DOES state it is a "true" account not a fiction:



I realize that there are a good number of people whom enjoy "historical fiction" and have seen these types of books on the very same NON-fiction shelves with history books, which has to be having a negative impact on the public for the chance of false, fictional information being seen as the same as non-fiction history, but this is the fault of the book stores - authors should know better than to make a true story into a false one by adding false info, and then presenting it as true. When done deliberately, in my opinion this is a heinous practice, and could even lead to tragedies.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

If you do as you say, then you will never come to any hard conclusions regarding virtually every treasure hunting story. You will never leave your living room. HAHAHA The only thing a true treasure hunter can do, is try and separate as much wheat from as much chaff as possible, then take what we know, and head out to the mountains. Virtually every treasure story that had 100% verifiable info has been run down and found (again virtually). Sometimes you can only read what someone said, then judge by their previous actions whether want to put some stock in their word.

A perfect example is Milton "Doc" Noss with the Victorio Peak Story. It is true that he was a bully and a drunk. There is also evidence that he tried selling bricks painted gold and copper bars to people telling them they were gold. He got a guy named Charlie Ryan to invest in a lead mine. Doc said the lead ran about 90% pure. An assay said about 5-6% (which meant basically worthless). He bounced a bunch of checks. Many people judge Doc Noss by those actions. They don't look any further or deeper to see if there was a reason for what he did.

Someone that knew Doc Noss said that Doc had a few tricks he would pull. The first time he tried to sell one of his authentic gold bars, he took it to a banker he knew. The banker swore to keep the find a secret, so Doc told him he found this gold in a mountain range far from where he actually found it. Doc watched, and that weekend the mountains where he told the banker he found the gold was crawling with treasure hunters. So much for keeping a secret. He would make appointments with people to sell them gold bars, and if he became suspicious of those people, instead of gold bars, he would bring either a copper bar or a gold painted brick to their meeting. He would not take their money, but tell them to have the gold bar checked out first. When it wasn't gold they would get mad and leave. Doc was safe. Remember, back then it was illegal for regular folk to have more than five ounces of gold. Turns out the lead mine Doc interested Ryan in was near the base of Victorio Peak. Since he had divorced his wife, he hadn't had access to the peak. Looks like the lead mine was his way of getting into the lower caverns.

Mike

I am in absolute agreement in that nothing beats getting out there and putting foot to ground.

Especially with isolated buried treasure incidents which doesn't involve more than one or a few people and very few clues, such as a single letter or map. You, yourself, have been involved with such scenarios and have succeeded.

However, I believe that you will agree that if the opportunity does exist to do research, it is always a good idea to do so, to eliminate as much guesswork (which many have not bothered to do so, with the LDM for example, and subsequently paid the price). Also, when enormous resources exist that cross multiple disciplines, one is obligated to do the corresponding research which allows systematic elimination of the chaff.

And especially so, in the rare even that your foe turns out to be formidable and very well-educated and leaves behind only convoluted clues. In this regard, doing research the proper way is very necessary and serves to help you to really understand your foe and how he thinks, through assemblage of his history, philosophy, mindset, and culture. Doing so is a big benefit to you, in the field, when you have to make instinctual choices in localizing, especially if it ends up being a process of trial and error.