The true history of gun control - Timeline

We would be anyone with an education. This is 101. It's like debating whether 1+1is 2. Havnt you ever taken a logic or critical thinking class or participated in formal debates. These are very common term and concepts.
OOOOh superiority ! I humbly bow to your education. That is the same education that does not understand human nature right?
 

Really Mr Crispin? You said I was illogical?
I am having a hard time with the thought that Jews would not have wanted to defend themselves, but that may be an entirely American idea.

And did you just prove my point that there ARE evil people who want to kill you for some weird reason or another? Why go gentle into that "good" night?
Thank you for the original welcome.
By the way, I am squarely behind Israel and the right to exist, and defend themselves.

Popular theory according to wiki, whatever, try not to attack me with offhand remarks please, I am not trying to offend you personally.
Jewish Bolshevism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dave, this may be true...but this is not what I am talking about. No, I did not call you illogical. I said you were illogical if you could not understand correlation vs. causality.

This is what you want to say:
Fact: people with guns are more likely to defend themselves in the case of a government takeover.
Fact: If the Jews had guns they would have more of a chance then if they did not have guns.
Fact: Hitler being a murderous beep beep killed the jews.

Correlation: People with guns have a better chance of survival.
Causality: Hitler killed the jews.

Logical Opinion: If the jews had guns they would have had a better chance against Hitler.

Are we connecting on this?
 

OOOOh superiority ! I humbly bow to your education. That is the same education that does not understand human nature right?

This is not superiority and has nothing to do with human nature. You are taking it personally. We are trying to teach you what we have learned in logic courses so we can debate on the same page. Nobody is insulting you. Nobody is stating superiority. I learned about guns from you guys. You learned about medicine from me. I learned us history from you guys. What can't you learn deductive logic from us?
 

Factually I do not think, as all of the experts do, that it was a causality of the effect of confiscation. What I happen to see is that it was a weird thing that proceeded mass execution, one had nothing to do with the other,, you guys have persuaded me finally. I still think it is such a weird coincidence though.
 

Yeah!!! Not a coincidence... a coincidence implies that it is random and had no impact. Correlation implies a possible impact but cannot be said strong enough to be causality.

In medicine, when treating new diseases, we look at correlations and work backwards to find the causality, ie...cure.
This is how antibiotics were discovered. There was a correlation of petri plates and agar not growing bacteria...nobody knew why. It wasn't the petri plates, it wasn't the agar. It was the antibiotics being produced on some of the plates...how penicillin was discovered. Work backwards from correlation to discover causality, not the other way around. Peace brother.

Crispin,
Ps If you are not afraid of a government takeover come join our list...it is a ton of fun.
 

Dave, this may be true...but this is not what I am talking about. No, I did not call you illogical. I said you were illogical if you could not understand correlation vs. causality.

This is what you want to say:
Fact: people with guns are more likely to defend themselves in the case of a government takeover.
Fact: If the Jews had guns they would have more of a chance then if they did not have guns.
Fact: Hitler being a murderous beep beep killed the jews.

Correlation: People with guns have a better chance of survival.
Causality: Hitler killed the jews.

Logical Opinion: If the jews had guns they would have had a better chance against Hitler.

Are we connecting on this?

Not connecting because your teaching me makes you not listen. Jews being armed would have only meant a better death for them and another thorn in the side of the national socialist party. They needed to organize against the National Socialist party, The gun Confiscation, The loss of liberty(what little was enjoyed in Europe) and the rise of a brilliant orator with crazy thoughts LOOOOOONNNNNGGG before the time they actually needed to use any weapons. Do I really have to lead you educated people to critical thinking and the chain of events that should have happened VERY early on?

Keep Burying your head in the sand and you all could only see the outcome of a couple of the last events, Because that seems to be the only important part to seriously smart folks
I think you guys are trying very hard to twist a point out of one thing to prove a broader point by ignoring the overall point! Jeeze that is fun !

By the way I noticed your light hearted fun poking at people tha tthink that any government has the power to make your life miserable. I Sincerely hope that as Americans we would know better than to trust in any government that looks increasingly like an oligarchy. Man I wish schools still taught history!
 

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Dave44 said:
Not connecting because your teaching me makes you not listen. Jews being armed would have only meant a better death for them and another thorn in the side of the national socialist party. They needed to organize against the National Socialist party, The gun Confiscation, The loss of liberty(what little was enjoyed in Europe) and the rise of a brilliant orator with crazy thoughts LOOOOOONNNNNGGG before the time they actually needed to use any weapons. Do I really have to lead you educated people to critical thinking and the chain of events that should have happened VERY early on?

Keep Burying your head in the sand and you all could only see the outcome of a couple of the last events, Because that seems to be the only important part to seriously smart folks
I think you guys are trying very hard to twist a point out of one thing to prove a broader point by ignoring the overall point! Jeeze that is fun !

By the way I noticed your light hearted fun poking at people tha tthink that any government has the power to make your life miserable. I Sincerely hope that as Americans we would know better than to trust in any government that looks increasingly like an oligarchy. Man I wish schools still taught history!

But was this the conclusion of the article that we are debating "Jews being armed would have only meant a better death for them and another thorn in the side of the national socialist party."??

If so please so us where that was the conclusion? We are debating the conclusions made by the posted article.
 

Mr Stockpicker,
You cherrypicked your very pointed conclusion out of this whole littany of examples and said this never existed. It is a great diversionary tactic I see all the time when I watch our esteemed leaders find a straw man and beat the snot out of it. But there just might be a larger point. How many trees am I holding up?



The true history of gun control - Timeline

Wednesday, February 27, 2013 by: J. D. Heyes

(NaturalNews) Throughout the history of the world there have been despots, tyrants, dictators and kings who have imposed their will over those they conquered. After defeating rival armies in battle, many of these rulers went on to lead cruel, ruthless and abusive regimes largely by keeping the subjugated powerless to resist.

Men like Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia; Genghis Khan, who founded and ruled the Mongol Empire, which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his demise; the Caesars of the Roman empire; and the pharaohs of the Egyptian empire all conquered, then kept power, by ruling with iron fists over people who were powerless to resist because they did not have the means to do so. In feudal England, British subjects in Scotland, Ireland and elsewhere were forbidden to bear arms, and as such were forced to remain loyal to the crown (until they won their independence by force of arms).

In more recent times the invention and mass production of the firearm made conquering - and then controlling - entire populations much more difficult, which is why the most heinous despots in the last 150 years have moved to limit or ban access to guns. In our own country, prior to the Revolutionary War, some colonists did own firearms but in the months before, and directly after, the war began King George's generals implemented gun confiscation policies - a primary driver behind the adoption of the Second Amendment by our founding fathers.

As gun control once more becomes an issue, and as some lawmakers, academics, pundits and ordinary Americans call for outright gun bans and confiscation in the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings in mid-December, it is vital and appropriate to examine the history of gun control around the world, and the carnage visited upon the innocent by gun-grabbing tyrants.

Soviet Union - 1929 -- Soviet Russia was established following the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, when ruling Czar Nicholas II tossed 11 million Russian peasants into World War I. Frustrated and angered by the loss of life, scores of armed Russians - many current or former Russian soldiers who were led by Marxist Vladimir Lenin - rebelled against a ruling regime that was already teetering on the edge of collapse.

Firearms were allowed to remain in the hands of Soviet citizens until 1929, when private gun ownership was abolished - a time which saw the rise of one of the world's most repressive regimes, that was led by Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin (he ruled from 1941-1953 but was entrenched in the country's leadership by 1928).

From 1929 to the year Stalin died, tens of millions of Soviet dissidents or anyone the country's leadership believed were a threat, were rounded up and either murdered or placed in labor camp/prisons and forced to work, sometimes to their deaths. Early in Stalin's political career, he launched two national collectivization campaigns in order to transform the country into an industrial power. Both campaigns, however, were rife with murder on a massive scale.

"In 1932-33, Stalin engineered a famine (by massively raising the grain quota that the peasantry had to turn over to the state); this killed between six and seven million people and broke the back of Ukrainian resistance," says a history of his political career at Gendercide.org. "The Five-Year Plans for industry, too, were implemented in an extraordinarily brutal fashion, leading to the deaths of millions of convict laborers, overwhelmingly men.

His "callous disregard for life" was matched only by his paranoia; later, he purged the Communist Party itself of anyone and everyone he believed was a threat - all under the auspices of a total gun ban.

"If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves," he once said.

The Ottoman Empire - 1911 -- The Ottoman Empire, the origins of which were in Turkey, implemented full gun control in 1911. A few years later, beginning in 1915 and lasting until 1917, some 1.5 million Armenians (out of a total of 2.5 million) living within the empire were rounded up and murdered by the "Young Turks" of the ruling class. In what has since been called the Armenian Holocaust, "Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed," says a short history of the slaughter by the University of Michigan. "Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes."

The Ottoman government established "butcher battalions" which consisted primarily of violent criminals who had been released from prison just to kill ethnic Armenians. Those who were members of the army (which was currently fighting the Allies in World War I) "were disarmed, placed into labor battalions, and then killed," said the university history.

Germany - 1938 -- Adolph Hitler's Nazi Germany established gun control in 1938, just prior to the implementation of his horrendous, murderous campaign to exterminate the Jews. In the end, 13 million Jews and other perceived lesser races were killed by Hitler and his Nazi Party.

In 1942, at the height of the Second World War and German advances, Hitler said:

The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.

China - 1935 -- The Nationalist Chinese government established gun control in 1935, just two years before Japan invaded in 1937. In the period from 1935 to 1952, some 20 million citizens and political dissidents were murdered. The Chinese Cultural Revolution, which was launched by the country's supreme ruler, Mao Zedong, took place from 1966-1976, and "claimed the lives of several million people and inflicted cruel and inhuman treatments on hundreds of million people," says MassViolence.org. "However, 40 years after it ended, the total number of victims of the Cultural Revolution and especially the death toll of mass killings still remain a mystery both in China and overseas." The actual figures remain a highly-classified state secret.

Regarding gun control, Mao once said: "War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."

Cambodia - 1956 -- The year this Asian nation issued its total gun control edict was in 1956, but the real carnage did not begin until several years later, during the regime of the demonic Pol Pot. Between 1975 and 1977, his regime murdered as many as 1 million "educated" people whom he believed represented a threat to his power in "killing fields" that were later depicted in a movie by the same name.

In all, more than 56 million people around the world have been murdered as a result of gun control laws imposed by rulers and despots who knew that the only way they could continue to brutalize their own people and stay in power was by disarming them.

And now left-wing pols, politicians, academics and pundits want our leaders to have the same ability to rule unopposed and unafraid of reprisal.

"Our forefathers did not arm the American people for the purpose of hunting, but rather to protect themselves from those who were doing the hunting, namely the tyrant King George," writes Bradlee Dean for WorldNetDaily.

Anyone truly interested in preventing mass murder should not be a supporter of gun control.

Sources:

Bolshevik Revolution: 1917

Gendercide Watch: Stalin's Purges

FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

Gun control, dictator-style

Online Encyclopedia of Mass Violence
 

Dave44 said:
Mr Stockpicker,
You cherrypicked your very pointed conclusion out of this whole littany of examples and said this never existed. It is a great diversionary tactic I see all the time when I watch our esteemed leaders find a straw man and beat the snot out of it. But there just might be a larger point. How many trees am I holding up?

Than what do you believe the conclusion of the article is?
 

Than what do you believe the conclusion of the article is?

I think it may be that you should try to extrapolate the possible outcomes to a series of events by looking at the past results of the events. Wait, is that math? Does critical thinking stop at results? If you were a thinking man would you keep doing the same thing and expect different results?

Hey , Here is a quote; "They needed to organize against the National Socialist party, The gun Confiscation, The loss of liberty(what little was enjoyed in Europe) and the rise of a brilliant orator with crazy thoughts LOOOOOONNNNNGGG before the time they actually needed to use any weapons. Do I really have to lead you educated people to critical thinking and the chain of events that should have happened VERY early on?

Keep Burying your head in the sand and you all could only see the outcome of a couple of the last events, Because that seems to be the only important part to seriously smart folks
I think you guys are trying very hard to twist a point out of one thing to prove a broader point by ignoring the overall point! Jeeze that is fun ! "
 

This went wayyyyyyyy too intellectual for me! I'm more of a "face meets bat" kinda man. :o

The French had the biggest army in the world at that time - Germans crushed them in 6 weeks!
The Poles were armed - Germans crushed them in 6 days!
The Russians were armed - Germans took 1.5 million prisoners in 2 weeks!

Would being armed have helped the Jews?
 

Dave44 said:
I think it may be that you should try to extrapolate the possible outcomes to a series of events by looking at the past results of the events. Wait, is that math? Does critical thinking stop at results? If you were a thinking man would you keep doing the same thing and expect different results?

Hey , Here is a quote; "They needed to organize against the National Socialist party, The gun Confiscation, The loss of liberty(what little was enjoyed in Europe) and the rise of a brilliant orator with crazy thoughts LOOOOOONNNNNGGG before the time they actually needed to use any weapons. Do I really have to lead you educated people to critical thinking and the chain of events that should have happened VERY early on?

Keep Burying your head in the sand and you all could only see the outcome of a couple of the last events, Because that seems to be the only important part to seriously smart folks
I think you guys are trying very hard to twist a point out of one thing to prove a broader point by ignoring the overall point! Jeeze that is fun ! "

I guess we were reading a different article. Can you post were that was the conclusion of the piece that was posted in this thread? It seems like that's your conclusion - which is perfectly fine. But it's not the conclusion of the article.
 

Dano Sverige said:
This went wayyyyyyyy too intellectual for me! I'm more of a "face meets bat" kinda man. :o

The French had the biggest army in the world at that time - Germans crushed them in 6 weeks!
The Poles were armed - Germans crushed them in 6 days!
The Russians were armed - Germans took 1.5 million prisoners in 2 weeks!

Would being armed have helped the Jews?

Exactly.
 

Hi Dano,
Have not seen you in a long time! Respectfully I am not ignoring you though, I just do not see your relevance in a discussion involving the rights in our country of our citizens, you already have your fun there. You are welcome to espouse your views however, I really only jumped in to say HOWDY!

And we are past the German crushing thing, the point is bigger than that.

How are things there anyway, doing well I hope.

Good To See You!
Dave
 

Oh I see it Mr Picker! Paragraph 13or so? A small one that did not quite say it but you assumed it? Or was there another article that red posted that you did not clearly footnote?
 

These are not pro / anti gun or pro / anti Obama comments, but simply comments on the logical construction and historical accuracy of the article itself.

One of my degrees is in history and I have a special interest in political military history. This article is an example of when an author starts with a conclusion - gun control leads to despots/genocide - and then tries to work backwards to prove the point. As we all know this is not how a logical argument is crafted. Its funny how in each example almost the entire paragraph goes into the human rights violations being committed with little to no factual detail on the details of the gun control/ban/confiscations that occurred - sometimes merely a single weak quote. In reality for all of these historical instances guns in the hands of private citizens of those nations was an extremely rare occurance. Cambodia is the best example where the population before the revolution could barely feed itself never mind owning stockpiles of weapons. I wrote my thesis on the period of Nazi Germany and know its history in detail and i can state beyond a doubt that gun control had absolutely nothing to do with the rise of the naxis and the crimes that followed. Again just look at the article and you can see that absolutely no real factual information is provided. I am more than happy to go through each example above to show that gun confiscation had little to nothing to do with the crimes that followed.

I know it's the thing to do to say that Obama is hitler etc etc but articles such as this are poorly written, poorly researched propaganda. They are done for shock value only and intelligent readers regardless of their position on firearms should see right through something like this.

Just my 2 cents.

Stocky , I'd say you Cherry Picked again . Does your Historical Education deny the FACTS in this article ? Only Jews were denied .

Hitler?s gun control lie debunked - Little Rock gun rights | Examiner.com
 

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