The Sombrero Mine

[ancientones]

This is where LaBarge turns and heads NW. I will show my estimation on his sketch map and his directions but
I have not verified this in the field. This is based off of GE and what I see.
There is a trail going straight N from LaBarge, and goes up a ridge. There is another trail to the left of this trail, a
rock pillar at this junction. There is a saddle on this long ridge, and at the end of the ridge 4 Peaks line up(N) and Weavers is South. Around the saddle area the trail goes down to enter the canyon to continue to the camp.
There are 'Mexican sign' on the hillside and a trail, this would match the sketch map if arrow is Peters. So mines on the 'West' side of Peters as well. I believe the straight and squiggly line and dot with arrow are pointing to the 'side' canyon East and its layout and mine-one of a few in this side canyon.
If his clue was 'It lies within a 5 mi circle of WN, Volcanic Peak, rock sticking up', his other clues will fit.
There is a 'large gold deposit' that runs 3 mi. along a ridge 'pushed up' exposing this on the Western
edges. The people finding and mining them(1846, 1847) had to leave, but they made sign/maps so future trips would know where to go-these were not 'tapped out'-they have value to come back to.
Is this the LDM? Which one?
View attachment 2073688
View attachment 2073689

For those looking for mines in here, my guesstimate on how this would line up.
Thank you skyhawk1251 for the mine your found on the mtn.

 

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[markmar]

Oops! Seems there is a roofless two rooms house ruin in that big dot from the lower Trail stone map.

 

[Clay Diggins]

The Spanish mined the Sups way back when, and due to Apache or whatever, they did not find it all.

I can find no evidence the Spanish ever mined anywhere in the Superstitions. The Spanish kept very good records. Please share your source for this surprising information.

 

[markmar]

I can find no evidence the Spanish ever mined anywhere in the Superstitions. The Spanish kept very good records. Please share your source for this surprising information.

I believe " ancientones " is referring to the Spanish before Peralta. There is a Spanish map which shows some mines/caches in the Superstitions, but only someone who knows to read Spanish maps can understand and validate it's Spanish and predate the Peralta family. That map has a different concept in what symbols used the map maker than the concept used Peraltas. Also they show different mines than what the Peralta maps show.
But... there is a Peralta map from the time they came for the first time in the Superstitions, dated 1753 when they were Spanish, before later became Mexicans. So, this is an evidence Spanish mined in the Superstitions. This map is similar to the Master map petroglyph close to Charlesboy Spring in the Superstitions and shows 14 gold mines opened and worked by the Spanish then Peralta family.

 

[Doc4261]

I believe " ancientones " is referring to the Spanish before Peralta. There is a Spanish map which shows some mines/caches in the Superstitions, but only someone who knows to read Spanish maps can understand and validate it's Spanish and predate the Peralta family. That map has a different concept in what symbols used the map maker than the concept used Peraltas. Also they show different mines than what the Peralta maps show.
But... there is a Peralta map from the time they came for the first time in the Superstitions, dated 1753 when they were Spanish, before later became Mexicans. So, this is an evidence Spanish mined in the Superstitions. This map is similar to the Master map petroglyph close to Charlesboy Spring in the Superstitions and shows 14 gold mines opened and worked by the Spanish then Peralta family.

Markmar,
The marks on the map are not all mines. They happen to be tops of the mntns. Can elaborate more if ya want me to.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Markmar,
The marks on the map are not all mines. They happen to be tops of the mntns. Can elaborate more if ya want me to.

Ah I see your evidence to support the theory that the Spanish mined the Superstitions is anecdotal.

I'm not sure how Miguel Peralta could produce a map of mines in the Superstitions since he never visited Arizona. Or is this from one of the other dozens (hundreds?) of Peralta families in the U.S.?

 

[markmar]

Ah I see your evidence to support the theory that the Spanish mined the Superstitions is anecdotal.

I'm not sure how Miguel Peralta could produce a map of mines in the Superstitions since he never visited Arizona. Or is this from one of the other dozens (hundreds?) of Peralta families in the U.S.?

It's not my job to find records of people who have been in Arizona, when Arizona was a province of New Spain. Maybe you have to go to Seville in regards to find a plausible evidence.
What to you seems anecdotal, to others could seem factual. The gold mines tell no lies.

 

[Clay Diggins]

What to you seems anecdotal, to others could seem factual. The gold mines tell no lies.

So you have discovered gold mines?

 

[markmar]

So you have discovered gold mines?

Yes, what the others here have claimed to have found.

 

[ancientones]

Yes, what the others here have claimed to have found.

Markmar,
If these are the mines along Peters, I agree and you should recognize my material.
To clear some confusion up. The 'Peralta Stones' were named this by someone other than me.
I reference these stones so those familiar with them know what I am talking about. I have no knowledge of who made them or when. I have never advised anything in my posting as Spanish-it is Mexican. Mexico gained independence from Spain in 1810. Yes, Spanish were here prior to 1810 but has nothing to do with my material or time.
The 'Peralta Inlay' stone is dated 1847, 1 sketch map 1846, 1 1847. I even think all made by the same map maker. These mines are here for these maps. The clues at this site back up this particular rich mine. This backs up the story why the Mexicans came back to this mine.
I am sure there are other Spanish or Mexican mines in the Sups, even for this site. I am not interested in these maps or 'trying' to make them fit at my site.
If you do have gold mines in the Wilderness then you also know finding the mines was not the hard part

 

[ancientones]

Ah I see your evidence to support the theory that the Spanish mined the Superstitions is anecdotal.

I'm not sure how Miguel Peralta could produce a map of mines in the Superstitions since he never visited Arizona. Or is this from one of the other dozens (hundreds?) of Peralta families in the U.S.?

I do believe there are 'maps' for the earlier Spanish mining, but I am interested in the 'current' Mexican mines and their material. I have read they(Spanish) were not successful due to the Apache, they had no fort close enough for the force needed to be successful, and the ore was not high grade.
A couple stories

The Superstition Mountains were the location of much Spanish mining activity over the years. Earlier in the 1900's there was still a lot of evidence of their working in the mountains. Some of this evidence was in the form of arrastras and crude smelters that could be found.

One of the most enduring mining legends in Arizona involves the lost mines of the Peralta family. The story begins with Don Pedro, who left his homeland in Barcelona, Spain, in 1757 aboard a Spanish galleon arriving in La Ciudad de Chihuahua, where he acquired multiple silver mines.
His son Manuel became a mine operator. So too did his son Miguel and his three sons who followed, Manuel, Pedro and Ramon, who moved forward on an expedition in 1846 to uncover gold deposits which they discovered at Mormon Flat in Arizona.

The rich gold ore originating from an 18-inch vein and valued at several thousand dollars was milled in arrastres operated by the Peralta brothers. Additional out-croppings of gold-bearing quartz were discovered by Pedro Peralta upon a black-topped mountain west of Weaver’s Needle, also known as La Sombrera.
***Notice this said 'West of Weavers Needle' this should be East.*
Pedro drew up maps and markers to the location while shipping gold to his brothers for processing. Two sons successfully returned to their home in Mexico with some gold from their placer mining operations, while Pedro returned to Chihuahua to muster 68 men and several hundred mules to mine the deposits upon his return in 1848. Apaches ambushed the miners, killing them onsite.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I do believe there are 'maps' for the earlier Spanish mining, but I am interested in the 'current' Mexican mines and their material.

The Superstition Mountains were the location of much Spanish mining activity over the years.

You continue to perpetuate this myth. There is no (zero) evidence the Spanish ever mined in the Superstitions. You have presented none and no man has ever found evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions.

Here is the history of Spanish mining in the Southwest from the National Park Service:

We have no real evidence of mining in this region during the Spanish Mission Period; the story on this frontier, in the 18th century and first two decades of the 19th, is rather that of the occasional prospector and explorer, who knew that the only sure way to capture attention and support for his particular project was to report every possibility of mineral wealth to the King of Spain, whose treasury was never sufficient for Spain's world-wide commitments. South of the Spanish outposts along the Santa Cruz Valley, a few adventurous men did a little prospecting and worked a vein of silver or washed gold for a short time, until the vein or pocket pinched out, or the Apaches drove them away. Even the fabulously rich find of the 'Planchas de Plata,' 30 miles south of Tumacacori, where large pieces of silver were picked up on the surface, was not developed into a mine; the 'mother lode' was never found. The only known operating mine in the whole of Arizona and New Mexico during Spanish times was the copper mine at Santa Rita, New Mexico, developed after 1800.

There is no (zero) evidence of a Peralta mine in the Superstitions. The legend of there being a Don Miguel Peralta involved anywhere in the Superstitions of Arizona was made up by Barry Storm in 1939. Before that there was no history of a "Peralta massacre" or Peralta mines in the Superstitions.

Marshall Trimble, the Arizona State historian had this to say about the Peralta legend in the Superstitions and the Peralta "massacre":

There was no substantiated evidence of a massacre grounds and there was no massacre of a Peralta family.
Peralta is a common name in Mexican culture, much like Smith and Jones in American. There actually was a Miguel Peralta who came to Arizona in the 1860s gold rush. Peralta had gold claims in the vicinity of today’s Rock Springs, along Interstate 17. Mostly due to Indian attacks, Peralta quit the mining business and went back to being a prosperous merchant in Wickenburg. So there was a Peralta mine, but it was located a long way from the Superstitions.

Believe what you wish. Chase these false tales as far as you are willing. Without verifiable facts you will be chasing your tail (tale?) until the end of your days with no result. If you really believe there is a Waltz gold mine in the Superstitions you will need to rely on facts to find it. These bogus stories are only going to waste your time and send you on a snipe hunt.

Maybe in the future, to avoid misleading others and for clarity, you could write more accurately - something like "I believe the Superstition Mountains were the location of much Spanish mining activity over the years." A lot of people come here to research the LDM, you can help them to avoid being sidetracked with very little effort.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning Clay,
Maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but it sure seems that there have been artifacts of Spanish origin, that have been found in the supers.
Artifacts, depending on the type, do not give proof of mining, but at least a presence. 😉

I do not possess any evidence, but an atmosphere of friendly sharing of our finds, might actually help encourage some members coming forward with things that might be. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I do identify with your frustration as explained above. 👍

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Actually the publishing of the "Peralta story" goes back at least as far as 1895 when a journalist, PC Bicknell, published his article that first appeared in Phoenix on January 9, 1895 and in San Francisco on January 13, 1895.

The article was titled : One of Arizona's Lost El Dorados.... A Mine in the Superstition Mountains

The article details the account of the Peralta family and their mining in the Superstitions, the massacre and referred to Jacob Waltz the dutchman as "old yaccup".

I have no opinion one way or the other concerning the Peraltas, only to point out this story was circulating at least 128 years ago.

I would imagine Bicknell heard this story and gathered his information from others, he sites a few sources, no telling how far back the story goes before Bicknell recorded it.

This does not prove any of the Peralta story is accurate.

On the other hand, it does not prove the story is false.

Someone wisely once said, ... " the lack of evidence is not evidence of the lack".

No one can say with 100% certainty that a person or family of New Spain never went north into the wilds of Arizona on their own, not part of an official expedition, searching for wealth.

If you believe that "recorded" history is all that ever happened in the history of the world, you are missing 99% of the world's history.

 

[ancientones]

Actually the publishing of the "Peralta story" goes back at least as far as 1895 when a journalist, PC Bicknell, published his article that first appeared in Phoenix on January 9, 1895 and in San Francisco on January 13, 1895.

The article was titled : One of Arizona's Lost El Dorados.... A Mine in the Superstition Mountains

The article details the account of the Peralta family and their mining in the Superstitions, the massacre and referred to Jacob Waltz the dutchman as "old yaccup".

I have no opinion one way or the other concerning the Peraltas, only to point out this story was circulating at least 128 years ago.

I would imagine Bicknell heard this story and gathered his information from others, he sites a few sources, no telling how far back the story goes before Bicknell recorded it.

This does not prove any of the Peralta story is accurate.

On the other hand, it does not prove the story is false.

Someone wisely once said, ... " the lack of evidence is not evidence of the lack".

No one can say with 100% certainty that a person or family of New Spain never went north into the wilds of Arizona on their own, not part of an official expedition, searching for wealth.

If you believe that "recorded" history is all that ever happened in the history of the world, you are missing 99% of the world's history.

I do not know if the Spanish mined here, these are stories on the internet. Like the Mexican Peralta Stones, Lost Dutchman clues and others-what stories and clues are accurate? This is why I hiked out here, several times,
took pictures of the signs on the hills, the trails cleared for mules, trail markers, matching the maps(Tom Kollenborn did the same), mines, shrines. These are pictures from my camera, not GE. These are Mexican mines, small barrel size opening that opens up on the inside, mineralized veins. Tailings are scattered and not obvious. These are buried somewhat, I presume by the Apache. He killed Mexican miners was his best clue, he gave the location and why here. The Spanish taught the Mexican very well. I would be splitting hairs to say they are different and is not my intent. My intent is to show the 'recentness' of these mines, the story of a rich vein to match Jacobs story.
I do not have ore to show, I would also need proof it matches as well as video to prove where it came from, while it is being taken. And legally.

 

[deducer]

You continue to perpetuate this myth. There is no (zero) evidence the Spanish ever mined in the Superstitions. You have presented none and no man has ever found evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions.

Here is the history of Spanish mining in the Southwest from the National Park Service:

We have no real evidence of mining in this region during the Spanish Mission Period; the story on this frontier, in the 18th century and first two decades of the 19th, is rather that of the occasional prospector and explorer, who knew that the only sure way to capture attention and support for his particular project was to report every possibility of mineral wealth to the King of Spain, whose treasury was never sufficient for Spain's world-wide commitments. South of the Spanish outposts along the Santa Cruz Valley, a few adventurous men did a little prospecting and worked a vein of silver or washed gold for a short time, until the vein or pocket pinched out, or the Apaches drove them away. Even the fabulously rich find of the 'Planchas de Plata,' 30 miles south of Tumacacori, where large pieces of silver were picked up on the surface, was not developed into a mine; the 'mother lode' was never found. The only known operating mine in the whole of Arizona and New Mexico during Spanish times was the copper mine at Santa Rita, New Mexico, developed after 1800.

There is no (zero) evidence of a Peralta mine in the Superstitions. The legend of there being a Don Miguel Peralta involved anywhere in the Superstitions of Arizona was made up by Barry Storm in 1939. Before that there was no history of a "Peralta massacre" or Peralta mines in the Superstitions.

Marshall Trimble, the Arizona State historian had this to say about the Peralta legend in the Superstitions and the Peralta "massacre":

There was no substantiated evidence of a massacre grounds and there was no massacre of a Peralta family.
Peralta is a common name in Mexican culture, much like Smith and Jones in American. There actually was a Miguel Peralta who came to Arizona in the 1860s gold rush. Peralta had gold claims in the vicinity of today’s Rock Springs, along Interstate 17. Mostly due to Indian attacks, Peralta quit the mining business and went back to being a prosperous merchant in Wickenburg. So there was a Peralta mine, but it was located a long way from the Superstitions.

Believe what you wish. Chase these false tales as far as you are willing. Without verifiable facts you will be chasing your tail (tale?) until the end of your days with no result. If you really believe there is a Waltz gold mine in the Superstitions you will need to rely on facts to find it. These bogus stories are only going to waste your time and send you on a snipe hunt.

Maybe in the future, to avoid misleading others and for clarity, you could write more accurately - something like "I believe the Superstition Mountains were the location of much Spanish mining activity over the years." A lot of people come here to research the LDM, you can help them to avoid being sidetracked with very little effort.

What exactly qualifies whoever wrote that passage for the NPS, and Marshall trimble as experts on the Superstitions? Have these individuals actually been up in the mountains?

 

[Clay Diggins]

What exactly qualifies whoever wrote that passage for the NPS, and Marshall trimble as experts on the Superstitions? Have these individuals actually been up in the mountains?

Both those articles are about the history of the Superstitions. I'm not sure whether it matters how much time a historian spends in the places they are investigating the history of but both those articles were written by professional historians.

Marshall Trimble is the Arizona State Historian and has been for more than 25 years. He's written more than 20 books on Arizona history. The Library of Congress has a local legacy project they are building to honor his work. He's a native Arizonan and a long time professor of history. I doubt you could find anyone more qualified to write on Arizona history.

I don't know about the NPS writer but Marshall Trimble has definitely spent time in the Superstitions. He started exploring there in 1982. He hangs out with Tom Kollenborn and Bob Bose Bell - all well known Arizona historians who have hiked those mountains. I have spent considerable time in the Superstitions myself since the 1970's.

I know, and work with, several experts on the Superstitions, none of them post here but if you have a question I could pass it on to them.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

An interesting bit of Arizona history overlooked by most history enthusiasts.

OFFICIAL REPORT OF CHAS. H. DUNNING, ARIZONA HISTORICAL SOCIETY TUCSON AND DIRECTOR OF THE ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF MINERAL RESOUNCES, REGARDING THE DISCOVERY OF AN ANCIENT MINE WORKING NEAR GOLDFIELD.

February 4, 1949

I have inspected the working on two occasions at the request of Mr. Alfred Lewis and Mr. Tom Russell and it appears to be a true “Antigua” or mine opening that antecedes recorded history. The discovery was made within a stone’s throw of the old Goldfield Mine workings which are reported to have produced over a million dollars in gold, but it apparently is not connected with those workings and seemingly was entirely unknown to the operators of the Goldfield.

One must visualize a vein formation or mineralized zone somewhat over 100 feet in width running parallel to a prominent wash and extending partly into or under the wash and partly along its bank. At one point, a small promontory of the rather hard quartzose vein material just cut into the wash and forms a steep bank. In the wash, close to this cliff, Lewis discovered an ancient cribbed shaft dipping out under the wash at an angle of about 70 degrees.

The working was discovered accidentally but not without sensible reason. The little promontory of vein matter carried quartz stringers showing only low values on the surface. Lewis felt that these stringers might become higher grade with a little depth, so he planned to sink down in the wash a short distance and then crosscut back into the hard wall. About two feet below the wash level he began to encounter old ironwood logs, and a little deeper these took shape as a cribbed (like a log cabin) chute or shaft, completely filled with wash material.

The state of the opening inside of the timbering was only about 18 x 36 inches – too small to work in – so Lewis had to tear out the cribbing on the lower side to make room to excavate further. The fill on the underside of the cribbing extended a short distance to a wall which approximately followed the dip of the shaft. By excavating out to the wall, Lewis gave himself enough room to work while still leaving three sides of the cribbing intact.

It soon became evident that the wall had been the limit of an old mining excavation, and the area in the vicinity of the shaft was a mined out and filled area. Tool marks on the wall show that it had been sealed off, and remnants of quartz sampled by Tom Russell assayed $40.00 per ton in gold.

The fill on the outside of the cribbing had been carefully placed by hand even to rocks being chinked in between the logs. This fill material is such as might have come from a mine working waste dump after the high-grade had been extracted, and was not wash material. Inside the cribbing the fill is entirely wash material such as would fill any opening if a cover over the opening had given way and a flood had taken place.

All crib timbering was done with heavy ironwood logs – some of them 10” in diameter. Occasional pieces of completely rotted mesquite are encountered in the inside fill, indicating that a cover or bulkhead of this material had been used, and later had rotted away permitting a flood to fill the shaft.

At the present writing, Lewis has excavated about 25 feet and the timbering and fill is continuing.

It is impossible to accurately estimate the age of the timbering but it is no doubt very old. All bark and an outer layer of the ironwood has disintegrated, and even mesquite will last a long time in a mine. A section of one of the ironwood logs was taken to the tree ring laboratory at the University of Arizona but they advised that it was impossible to determine its age.

If the work was done with the idea of concealment, one could scarcely imagine a more thorough job. The timbering was done for permanency and at a great expenditure of labor. And it must have been done from the bottom up, precluding any idea of a “prospect” shaft. It then stopped abruptly a couple of feet below the wash level where a log cover could be overlain with wash gravel, some brush dragged over it, and the first rain would obliterate all traces. Its relation to the promontory is such that floods down the creek would tend to pile more gravel on top of it instead of exposing it. If one planned to come back in a reasonable time there would be no use making the cover of ironwood, but if one planned to have the shaft itself intact, indefinitely, the ironwood cribbing would be ideal.

The formation is one in which it is reasonable to expect high grade gold pockets and if the Spaniards, or the Dutchman, or whoever it was, found such an outcrop, mined it down from the surface, and then wished to leave it for a while but conceal it, there could be no more perfect way than to put in such a cribbed opening for access, fill in around it and cover it over.

The answer to most high-grade gold pockets and lost mines is that they were small and worked out, and that may be the answer in this case. But the nature of the work indicates that it is a true “Antigua” and that it was cleverly arranged for concealment.

Signed
February 4, 1949 Chas. H. Dunning, Director ARIZONA Dept. of Mineral Resources.

 

[deducer]

Both those articles are about the history of the Superstitions. I'm not sure whether it matters how much time a historian spends in the places they are investigating the history of but both those articles were written by professional historians.

Marshall Trimble is the Arizona State Historian and has been for more than 25 years. He's written more than 20 books on Arizona history. The Library of Congress has a local legacy project they are building to honor his work. He's a native Arizonan and a long time professor of history. I doubt you could find anyone more qualified to write on Arizona history.

I don't know about the NPS writer but Marshall Trimble has definitely spent time in the Superstitions. He started exploring there in 1982. He hangs out with Tom Kollenborn and Bob Bose Bell - all well known Arizona historians who have hiked those mountains. I have spent considerable time in the Superstitions myself since the 1970's.

I know, and work with, several experts on the Superstitions, none of them post here but if you have a question I could pass it on to them.

I am not questioning their credibility as far as Arizona history in general, nor am I questioning their lengthy accolades, but I do wonder if they are as knowledgeable about the Superstitions as they claim to be.

I'm surprised that Trimble "hangs out" with Kollenborn considering Kollenborn passed on in 2018. Kollenborn's opinions on the Peraltas as well as the "Peralta Stone Maps" are well known. And by Bob Bose Bell, I assume you mean Bob Boze Bell.

And as far as the Superstitions, I have generally found that these mountains don't really care for what is supposed to pass as acceptable written history, particularly from the perspective of the literate eurocentric Anglo-Saxon.

Of course the question remains as to what exactly constitutes an "expert" on the Superstitions. For me that takes more than just reading a few books and traversing a few well-worn paths.

I will share with you something a colleague of mine found in these mountains way off the beaten path, for you to chew on.

I am sure you can recognize what glyph is on the stone in the photo.

 

[Doc4261]

I am not questioning their credibility as far as Arizona history in general, nor am I questioning their lengthy accolades, but I do wonder if they are as knowledgeable about the Superstitions as they claim to be.

I'm surprised that Trimble "hangs out" with Kollenborn considering Kollenborn passed on in 2018. Kollenborn's opinions on the Peraltas as well as the "Peralta Stone Maps" are well known. And by Bob Bose Bell, I assume you mean Bob Boze Bell.

And as far as the Superstitions, I have generally found that these mountains don't really care for what is supposed to pass as acceptable written history, particularly from the perspective of the literate eurocentric Anglo-Saxon.

Of course the question remains as to what exactly constitutes an "expert" on the Superstitions. For me that takes more than just reading a few books and traversing a few well-worn paths.

I will share with you something a colleague of mine found in these mountains way off the beaten path, for you to chew on.

I am sure you can recognize what glyph is on the stone in the photo.

View attachment 2077678

I see a polar bear sitting on its ass, while another polar bear head going for the neck.