The Peralta Stones

Bowman,

Do you believe a shaft and a tunnel will be sufficient evidence to get a Treasure Trove Permit? Do you know what is required in time and evidence to get such a permit? How many years do you think it will take.....just to get a yes or no? As far as I know, only one permit has ever been issued.

You will need lawyers, archaeologists, environmental specialists, thousands of dollars in expenses and a good proof reader. A few sharp machetes will also be required. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

If you have actually located the LDM, it is likely you will be a few years short.

All of this is just to let you know.....it won't be a walk in the park. The "powers that be" will not be helping you along the way. They will throw every obstacle they can conjure up to impede your success.

On that high note......Good luck and good hunting.

cj
 

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Blindbowman I am not laughing at you - though sometimes I can't tell if you are fooling (playing with us here) or just waxing poetic. Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco
 

in reality i dont think it will ever get that far , if you found the real treasure troves the goverment would step in before you could get any permits .....

it may take years to get the permits i think the main idea here is to have out right proff frist and protect the proff in a safe place .. if you do not touch the treasure troves and take pictures only, the pictures are yours , you can do with them what you want ...if in fact you do not touch any given object you can not know if it is real or not could you ?

it is a odd fact of law . to see something and know it is there is not the same as touching it and knowing it is real . one is opioion and the other is fact ...

its a nice way to side step the facts untill you want to make your find fact ...

the treasure trove permit states the facts and the laws and rules very planly to the letter ...

and No a tunnle and or the shaft are not evidence enough for the permits . you would have to prove the tunnle or the shaft had dirrectly been related to the legends and or would have to prove evidence of any treasure , real objects . related to a given treasure trove .. i think if you found a gold statue they would give you a permit because they would want to inspect the statue and recover it ..

do you think the goverment will let you take a golden statue out of those mts by your self .. you would be a bigger fool than i am if you think so ...


if you did find a treasure a real treasure they would be there so fast your find would vanish in hours ...


those rules and permits are for those hunting not in the case if one was real and was fact and found ...

thats why the bad ass camera thousands of pictures hard to prove those wrong ...

if you found the LDM and did prrrove it you would not have to hunt for those people they would find you lol ... and every body and their mother and her mother's mother ...lol

no i know it could take years to complete the task ..
 

[=cactusjumper link= You will need lawyers, archaeologists, environmental specialists, thousands of dollars in expenses and a good proof reader. A few sharp machetes will also be required. That's just the tip of the ice berg.cj

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Snifff Cactus, tell me, sniff ]

Tropical Tramp
 

=the blindbowman link=
it is a odd fact of law . " to see something and know it is there is not the same as touching it and knowing it is real" . one is opioion and the other is fact ...

if you found the LDM and did prrrove it you would not have to hunt for those people they would find you lol ... and every body and their mother and her mother's mother ...lol
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Sheesh tell me bowman sigh
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Tropical Tramp

]
 

[=Oroblanco link=
Well heck Tropical Tramp, we only live once, ) but the sight of those barrancas where you found Tayopa is enough to get an old prospector's blood simmering!

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They are loaded with the Pt metals also ORO. You will most probably be there one of these days. Djui will be your bearer of the cold beer. (6000 ft.) and the pick & shovel guy. Maybe we can entice Gollum to enter the main deposit, there is an almost certainty that here are a few interesting traps still active in there . better him than we un's.
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Tropical Tramp
 

;D :D ;)
Djui wrote: Gimme a pick and shovel, I already got gloves! Grin I'll get Oro's beer anyday Smiley
Randy - not fair, since you probably already heard I can't have alcohol, so the beer load would be really for you! I do have a spare pick and shovel around here though, only "slightly used" *(might need new handles)*

Tropical tramp wrote:Maybe we can entice Gollum to enter the main deposit, there is an almost certainty that here are a few interesting traps still active in there

;D :D ;)
 

=Oroblanco but would bet it is less than 200. However if it were 100 miles, it would still seem to be much too far for the sound of a dog barking or bell ringing to carry that distance, especially considering the mountainous AND flat terrain between the two locations.

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HI Buddy ORO, try around 3- 400 miles, with multiple mountain ridges between.

Tropical Tramp
 

HOWDY Joseph!
Tropical Tramp wrote: around 3- 400 miles

That would make the idea of a sound of a dog barking, carrying that far, much less credible. I have asked Blindbowman why he is convinced there are Jesuits and father Kino involved, but his reply is based on a conclusion that only Kino could be responsible; I wish him luck and good hunting, and who knows what he will find? I sure cannot say it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE, since Kino did explore southern Arizona and founded missions, though any mine(s) put in to the Superstitions by Jesuits must have been super, super-secret as we have no record of any, and if they truly did have any mines in the Superstitions, it is highly unlikely to be Tayope. Either way he is virtually certain to have a great time, and the visual scenery alone is a "treasure" worth the trip.

[=mrs.oroblanco ]
You will need an extra pack for his coffee and soda, though!!! Grin Grin Grin Grin
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All he gets is cold creek water sheehs

Tropical Tramp

HEY at least it is COLD!! ;D :D ;) I won't mention how "tasty" hot, dirty water can be when you are thirsty enough, nor pee-ss-warm water in a hot rock pool, literally teeming with little critters you have to strain through your teeth or chew before you swallow! ;D

Come to think of it, with NO coffee, I would go into withdrawals!!! :o Tea maybe? Not to worry though, your silver is safe mi amigo, the regulations on bringing horses across the border have me worried - several innoculations required etc, the old horse trailer lights are all busted, plus I have no good prospecting dog. I wonder what the regs are on bringing a dog across the border, if I did have one?

Oroblanco
 

Djui5 wrote: ha! Oro and I are on the same page then! Can't dig when your drunk right?

Hi buddy! No, can't have alcohol with my meds - doesn't mix well. I did try it once, figuring the doc was full of crap, only to be puking for hours afterwards. I doubt I could dig too well while under the influence though! Are you a coffee addict too?

Oroblanco
 

What is this y'all are trying to wrangle me into? I don't mind tripping off a few death traps. Of course, I will have to have Jose with me (as bait).

Don't worry Jose, I have it all figured out.........We'll tie a rope around you, and you can walk ahead of me. If the floor drops out from underneath you, and I'm not too drunk on Randy's Brews, I may be able to save you, but if not, at least we will know where one trap was. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Best,

Mike
 

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

;D :D ;)

Hi Mike buddy! All my fault, as I had drifted way, way off topic with some new (or really OLD to be honest) ideas about taking a little trip to hunt for Tayopa. In a way it is Tropical Tramp's fault - he went and posted those photos of that gorgeous country, which as you know is more than enough to get an old prospector's heart pumping!

I do wish I had figured out that there were THREE Tayopa's as Tropical Tramp pointed out, perhaps I would have done this sooner (and in better physical shape, younger age etc) but we get too soon old, too late sh-mart as they say. It makes sense, as for instance there is no way you can stand on the Mesa of the Bell Maker and have the sun set over Tayopa #1 - (it DOES fit with Tayopa #3) fitting the clues together if there were only ONE location just would NOT work, at least I could not make them fit. Anyway Joseph has "volunteered" your services - and you have been to old Mexico a time or three anyway so....who knows? ;D :D ;)

Being honest though, I don't know if I would do it, as I mentioned I don't have a good dog for such a trip, and the horses would have to be inoculated (not sure what for exactly) the horse trailer lights are all broken, not to mention I would have to "put off" quite a number of other projects in order to go. It is fun to think about doing, perhaps.....but can't do anything until after March 2nd at any rate.

Oroblanco
 

lets look at a few odd facts . if there was a real tayopa .and i do mean a real tayopa with all the wealth and treasure stated . and Kino was the jesuit leader that had to conseal this location . he could have very well took the locations of other old mines and confused the clues to hide the Real tayopa & the treausre trove in the tunnle . yet if he was going to do that it would have been reported to rome and , in fact it was . and we even have that document and did not know its translation ., i have been working on this odd code kino was useing and ii got to say it can be very confuseing at times but its one hell of a code when you can read it ...

what was writen on the bells . Tayopa , Remedios, piedad...

Tayopa-------at pa -----------remove (oy )

Remedios ----rome is----------remove (de)

Piedad---------Paid------------remove( ed)

so they are at the tunnle called pa and the treasure listed is in the tunnle . i guess enough to pay rome ...(at pa, rome is paid ) ! i dont think rome ever got the payment ! and i know where pa is , its not in mexico its in the tunnle across from the rock house i found ...note that the word (pa) coded becomes pima an the TA or (At ) refering to the Ancients...

so if this could be the case than the code could give us a clue to where this all started . and it dose .with Marcos de niza in 1539 and he took the mine from the .....opata....now get smarter than the clues and reverse the code and you get ( ta- y- opa) ....thats where the name tayopa came from IMHO ...but IMHO it was past down to them as it has been threw out time ...

so even if kino knew the code and about the maps and made the stones , i could be wrong , marcos could have made the peralta -ruth map & the stones . Kino just found the evidence and tryed to help hide the treasures and the locations ...

but if these are the real turn of events than the cave or tunnle area is far older than exspect it could be , 1539 ...would be more like 1000 years earlyer or even back before christ .....! IMHO we could be talking aztec or there abouts ...

sorry i need to get a cup of coffie ... but think of this why debate the tayopa mine , if its only a small part of the real site history ? i am sorry you did catch the marcos de niza connection . what do you get when you code Sierra madre (Sir Mar de) ... remeber what was stated in the kino legend about something happening and the indains went nuts i think the word coded in reverse says it all (sir mar padre ) & ( ma red ) .....i think you can get the main idea of what took place and why the indain reacted the way they did ...

see the code is in two parts . forward and reverse , it goes back to before christ and IMHO could be the true bible code ...but than again it could just be the effects of this home made fudge...
 

Now con-sarn it - Blindbowman have you considered the time line involved here? Father Eusebio Kino, (the famous one) was born in 1644. He became a member of the Society of Jesus in 1665, when he was 21. Kino left Spain in 1681 for Mexico, and had several activities before arriving in Sonora, which at that time included Pimeria Alta (southern Arizona) in 1687. Now why is this of any importance? Well you might ask......

The first Tayopa, later renamed La Divina Trinidada, located near Guaynopa, was discovered around 1603, or 1577 according to another source. (Some say Tayopa is referenced as early as 1538 by the name "Topira" but in my opinion this is incorrect. I think the 1577 date is correct, as the date of 1603 cast in one bell may not refer to the date of discovery but of casting the bell or building the church.) The main silver mine was in bonanza (producing tremendous quantities of silver) for years, until an Apache raid literally wiped out the inhabitants to a man. This raid occurred in 1648. Another version states that Tayopa as well as Guaynopa and Guaynopita were razed to the ground by a combined Pima/Opata revolt in 1646.

See a problem yet my friend? Kino did not arrive in Sonora until 1687, nearly FORTY YEARS after the most famous Tayopa had been LOST. He could not KNOW where the original Tayopa was located, (no one did after 1648) -so could not produce a map to it. Kino can be ruled out as far as any connections to Tayopa are concerned.

This should not make a hill of beans-worth of difference, if you should discover a cache of treasure or a rich lost mine, the exact identity of the treasure and mine can be researched and proven AFTER recovering it. I don't think you are hitching your mule to a theory based on Tayopa + Kino in the Superstitions as the whole reason for your expedition anyway, you are really seeking truth, regardless of what that truth turns out to be - correct?

Regardless of theory, good luck and good hunting to you Blindbowman, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco
 

=Oroblanco I won't mention how "tasty" hot, dirty water can be when you are thirsty enough, nor pee-ss-warm water in a hot rock pool, literally teeming with little critters you have to strain through your teeth or chew before you swallow! ;D
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Sigh I have done that too many times , or out of a cow track. sheesh

Ugh that brought back memories when we lost a guy up in the Bacatetes in Yaqui country. He had been gone for two days and we couldn't leave the camp site to go for water or provisions, everyone was looking for him .. So we had to drink from an earth dam with about about 2 ft of very mixed er ah umm hmm water?. One in which the cows just stood spread legged taking it in one end and and dribling it out the other end. This was the ONLY water available. No matter how much we boiled it, it still tasted and smelled like er ah your coffee.? sigh what one won't do for a missing comrade.

Incidentally he crossed the entire Bacatetes and ended up at a ranch . The rancher took him to Guaymas where he hopped a bus back to Obregon , picked up fresh provisions and brought them back to camp on the 5 th day. We were checking the buzzards for his dehydrated carcass.

Basic law in the brush, you are responsible for your partners, period.
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. I wonder what the regs are on bringing a dog across the border, if I did have one? Oroblanco
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None that I know of. Rabies shots of course. I already Have my 13 in mi tummy so I am ok.
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Tropical Tramp
 

HI pepes a hint.

Tayopa was the name of the actual center of a group of mines. All of which can legitimately be called the mines of tayopa.

Since they were spread out some 50 miles away from the Church of Tayopa #1, it is possible that one of the outlying Tayopa mines was close enough to be heard.


Tayopa was Ag, The Paramo was AU. Pt metals were also found in paying quantities.


All vertical hydro-thermal deposits

Tropical Tramp
 

Dang Tropical Tramp, now I think I will have to go start yet another thread! Guess I will do that...
Oroblanco
 

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