The Pearl Ship

[Shortfinger]

Ok I know this part of treasure legends is slow but dang..
Hmm well I am curious if anyone has any ideas or ongoing theories. Apparently Gollum doesnt want to or is ignoring me but he has stated for 5 years that part of the ship has been used to build a house addition.
W/o any further evidence I think it's still under the water waiting to be uncovered and make someone rich. Now as to the statements made for the ship being near dos Palmas. Excuse my spelling. Or near the springs over the border.

Not throwing mud just stating fact and theory. No trouble wanted.

-Anzayounggunn

Ps. The theory as the pig farmer finding the pearls and selling them in LA. Seems likely but why would the wife tell a ranch hand about it and show him?

Just questions trying to pull people in to the conversation. It has been stated before but I want to revive a section beyond the drama in the LDM forum

Okay, anzayounggun I’ll throw my two cents in here. Gollum is probably busy, and he doesn’t respond very well to direct inquiries, anyway.

As far as I can tell by looking at all of the reports, there are at least 3, probably 4 or 5, maybe many more ships in the area.

1. The one that Gollum reported as being used for a house addition, was supposed to be located near the west edge of the Glamis dunes, south of the 78. This may have been the pearl ship, but I doubt it.
2. The pig farmer (Nels Jacobson) ship was located nearer Niland, in a field, so not in the dunes. This seems likely to have been the ship associated with Cavendish, specifically, the Content, since the farmer supposedly obtained jewels from the ship. He also used parts of the wood to make a pig pen.
3. The ship supposedly found by the Indian guide from Anza’s expedition. This was in the area of San Felipe wash, quite a way west of the dunes, and may be the one reported as being near Superstition Mountain. This is the one I think is the pearl ship.
4. Ship reported as being in Coyote Canyon. Another possibility for the Pearl Ship. However, with the number of people (myself included) that have been up and down that canyon over the years, it is unlikely that this report is factual. But maybe…..
5. “Viking” ship reported by Myrtle Botts, in the area of Canebreak canyon? This somewhat resembles the description of the ship near Hank Brandt’s mine, and is in the supposed area, but may not be the same one.
6. Don Jose’s (Real de Tayopa tropical Tramp) ship near the Pinacates. Not in this area, so……

There has obviously been a lot of “mix and match” reporting going on, as is common with most, if not all treasure stories (for more examples of this, just go to the Lost Peg Leg Mine section). As I say, there may be more, but these are the most plausible and most reported ships, IMHO.

Some coffee while you contemplate the above information?

JB

 

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[anzayounggun]

Okay, anzayounggun I’ll throw my two cents in here. Gollum is probably busy, and he doesn’t respond very well to direct inquiries, anyway.

As far as I can tell by looking at all of the reports, there are at least 3, probably 4 or 5, maybe many more ships in the area.

1. The one that Gollum reported as being used for a house addition, was supposed to be located near the west edge of the Glamis dunes, south of the 78. This may have been the pearl ship, but I doubt it.
2. The pig farmer (Nels Jacobson) ship was located nearer Niland, in a field, so not in the dunes. This seems likely to have been the ship associated with Cavendish, specifically, the Content, since the farmer supposedly obtained jewels from the ship. He also used parts of the wood to make a pig pen.
3. The ship supposedly found by the Indian guide from Anza’s expedition. This was in the area of San Felipe wash, quite a way west of the dunes, and may be the one reported as being near Superstition Mountain. This is the one I think is the pearl ship.
4. Ship reported as being in Coyote Canyon. Another possibility for the Pearl Ship. However, with the number of people (myself included) that have been up and down that canyon over the years, it is unlikely that this report is factual. But maybe…..
5. “Viking” ship reported by Myrtle Botts, in the area of Canebreak canyon? This somewhat resembles the description of the ship near Hank Brandt’s mine, and is in the supposed area, but may not be the same one.
6. Don Jose’s (Real de Tayopa tropical Tramp) ship near the Pinacates. Not in this area, so……

There has obviously been a lot of “mix and match” reporting going on, as is common with most, if not all treasure stories (for more examples of this, just go to the Lost Peg Leg Mine section). As I say, there may be more, but these are the most plausible and most reported ships, IMHO.

Some coffee while you contemplate the above information?

JB

Whoop whoop coffee! My first official cup!

Doesn't respond to his version of history. I haven't seen any evidence of this. Nor has any been presented just his word sorry but I trust people as far as I can throw them.

I can agree the pearls might have been buried
I think the Viking ship is a lie personally though. The theory of multiple ships is plausible but I think the jewel ship is the pearl ship and the rest are confusion and additions to the ship story to get free room and board from peg leg types
The canebreak area I worked in as a volunteer and it couldn't have been under water sorry but too far out and just no way I looked into the areas archaeologIcal history the area was under water in the last ice age when Blair valley was under water and a lake no way sorry. No exactly Viking era

 

[Shortfinger]

Whoop whoop coffee! My first official cup!

Doesn't respond to his version of history. I haven't seen any evidence of this. Nor has any been presented just his word sorry but I trust people as far as I can throw them.

I can agree the pearls might have been buried
I think the Viking ship is a lie personally though. The theory of multiple ships is plausible but I think the jewel ship is the pearl ship and the rest are confusion and additions to the ship story to get free room and board from peg leg types
The canebreak area I worked in as a volunteer and it couldn't have been under water sorry but too far out and just no way I looked into the areas archaeologIcal history the area was under water in the last ice age when Blair valley was under water and a lake no way sorry. No exactly Viking era

Okay, I don’t insist on any of these, but…. The pearl ship would have had no reason to have a stash of jewels. It was built in Mexico for the express purpose of obtaining pearls either through trade or diving. No jewels required, or even remotely probable. The only remotely possible ship that was known to be missing in the area of the upper Sea of Cortez region was the Content, hence my speculation. As far as the Viking ship goes, there is considerable evidence of at least one visit to the Sea of Cortez of blonde people who have all of the characteristics of Vikings (check out the stories of the Mayo tribe and the Seri indians). During the 1100-1300 period, when the Vikings were visiting the East Coast of North America, was a very warm period. It is likely that there was no ice in the Northwest Passage during the summer months during the warmest times of that period, and the sea levels were likely 10’, possibly as much as 20’ higher than they now are. Also, the Salton trough is a rift valley, the bottom is dropping, and the sides are being uplifted, which could account for a foot or two, maybe more, of elevation change as well. Since Myrtle didn’t actually say where she saw the Viking ship, it is possible that it was somewhere else, at a lower elevation. She was just known to be in the Canebreak Canyon area. Also, there is some speculation that it might have been an even earlier ship, from one of the early Mediterranean sea faring civilizations. So, although it is somewhat unlikely, I wouldn’t dismiss it totally.

JB

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You guys are so funny. This whole Pearl ship thing is a testament to the human psyche of just-how-easy it is to believe treasure legends. No one wants to disbelieve, "lest they be left out" . We subconsciously latch on to any shred of evidence . Yet dismiss and don't see alternate explanations. I can't believe this thread is still going. Every time I see this forum topic section, it harkens me back to my youth:

My grandfather and grandmother moved to the Imperial Valley town of Brawley in 1929. He was about 30. And brought his 19 yr. old bride from the east coast to follow a job lead in the railroad. Agriculture was just then beginning to take off. So towns like Brawley, Imperial, Calipatria, Westmorland, Holtville, etc... were just starting to blossom.

Almost immediately he immersed himself into community fraternal orginzations. Like Moose, Elks, etc... And as such met long-time pioneer settlers to the region, who had come there as early as the 00's or teens !

When we were kids in the late 1960s/early 1970s, my grandfather was then in his 70's by then. We would go down to the desert every Christmas and Thanksgiving for family visits. I have fond memories of sitting in grandpa's lap and listening to him spin stories of desert legends and lore. That he, no doubt, picked up from the long-timers that he knew and met upon his moving their 50 yrs. earlier.

Like: The camels that still roam the desert, if you watch closely in the middle of the night . And ... yup, you guessed it, the pearl ship ! Persons had been wandering the desert during blinding wind storms. And had seen a ship out in the middle of the desert. Revealed d/t the sand had been blown away from from the wreckage d/t the windstorm. So the lucky finder runs back to town to tell others. Curious on-lookers follow the fellow back out to the desert. But lo & behold, the winds shifted, and the sand blew back over the ship. Or the person can't recall his path to re-trace his steps. [Is any of this starting to sound like a 1970's treasure magazine story yet ?]

But it was enough to instill in me a treasure fever, that no doubt led to my later entry into the hobby.

But the "pearl ship" ? Sorry, but I lump this into a lore & legend category. So-too will those that swear by Oak Island or Lost Dutcham have their "iron-clad" and "bullet-proof" evidence. So too was any of the 1970's treasure mag's stories so compelling. Heck: Throw in a few faded newspaper clippings, and a drawing of a miner posed next to his burro, and by golly, it MUST BE TRUE.

 

[markmar]

Tom in Ca

When i was a kid , I learned how every legend has a little percent of truth . The success in the treasure hunting is to be able to recognize that little percent . The truth is always in logical frames

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...When i was a kid , I learned how every legend has a little percent of truth . The success in the treasure hunting is to be able to recognize that little percent . The truth is always in logical frames

Yup, the usual come-back line when doubt is cast on the various treasure legends.

Do you remember those treasure magazine from the 1960s and 70s ? Each issue was packed full of "lost mines" and "stolen stagecoach loot" stories. Great fun to read.

A buddy of mine even submitted one of the stories for publication in the 1970s. It got accepted and printed in one of the editions. Totally made up, of course. But hey, he got the $50 acceptance/publication payment. And by golly he even had a few faded newspaper clippings from which his story was based on, that looked cool in the side-margins art-work. Such that it had true names of people and events. We got a good laugh out of that, and wondered if anyone went looking for that treasure.

So, sure: All you need to do now, is just sort out that that little percent of truth from his story, and the treasure is most certainly there eh ?

 

[markmar]

Tom

That articles are for those who need a little more adrenaline in their blood . A treasure hunter don't needs more adrenaline because he takes a small dose every moment when he is thinking about an incomplete treasure research project .
The Iturbe's pearl ship story is real and was described by Iturbe himself after his salvage . I don't take the whole story as real but I made my logical version from it . The better version is to think like Iturbe at those days using the surrounding territory and the conditions that existed . Nothing more and nothing less .

 

[gollum]

Tom,

That is why research is so important. You are so right that many many stories were completely made up (like the "Man that found Pegleg's Nuggets" in Desert Mag). I have always said that if anyone gets interested in a story, then research it. Even a little bit of good research will many times completely disprove a story (or get you even more interested).

As far as this story goes, I can't confirm anything about any jewels or gems. I can confirm that if pearls were buried in the sand, they would not have lasted this long. I can also confirm that a Spanish Caravelle was found just South of the 78, just East of Brawley/El Centro. The aft end was used to make a guest room for his house (he said because they were the only straight timbers there). The fore end of the ship is still there.

The Viking Ship (Longboat) is another unusual story. It starts with Myrtle Botts' Story from about 1933. Here is a great version of the story from a guy who he and his father both interviewed Myrtle Botts before she died:

DESERT VIKING SHIP

.....and a pic of a petroglyph of a single-mast ship from just South of where the Longboat is supposed to be:



Also, I have a friend that has been documenting the history of the Seri Indians (Comca'ac) for about twenty years:



I hid her face due to issues with security in the Sea of Cortez Area. She has Seri (Comca'ac) bodyguards while there, but it is still dangerous. She told me the Seri History about the Red Haired Giants that lived for a while on Tiburon Island. It is not a fable. It is tribal history.

.....and here is the Red Haired Giants of Death Valley Story:

DEATH VALLEY GIANTS

So, we have circumstantial evidence of the path of these "Red Haired Giants" from Tiburon Island (Sea of Cortez) > Petroglyph (near Mexican Border) > Coyote Mountains (Longboat) > Death Valley Cave of Red Haired Giants >

I personally think the Viking Longboat Story is far more interesting than a lost pearl ship.


Mike

 

[gollum]

Shortfinger,

What makes you think Botts was near Canebrake? She said they were camped at Agua Caliente Hot Springs. That is Northwest from Canebrake by about 4 or 5 miles. Now, reread the story. They were camped at Agua Caliente Hot Springs Camp Ground. The old prospector came into their camp and told them about the ship. The next morning, they headed out to find it. They got to the spot late that day. The spot must have been a good ways from their camp site if it took them 6 or 7 hours to get there. It also had to be a very steep canyon, because supposedly, the earthquake started a landslide that blocked the canyon. We also know it is steep because even though there was some kind of carving in the canyon wall, they couldn't get up to it.

Just some things to keep in mind.

Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Here's some food for thought, for you pearl-ship buffs: Do a wiki search under "lost ship of the desert". And you will find the summaries of all the different theories, and all their originating genesis . Of when the stories first appeared, their sources/authors or supposed witnesses, etc.... Starting with a flurry of reports in 1870 , as you all know. So as you can see, someone's done a good job of categorizing everywhere, in print, that any such mentions appear. Of the various incarnations of the theories and attributions go.

Ok, but a curious fact emerges when you begin to look at the various theories of what the ship could be : (assuming that is, if a "ship" is even there to begin with) : You will notice that NO ONE ever ventured the guess of the "pearls", till 1933 at the earliest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but any printed mentions before that, gave various other origins, other than pearls. So the latest current version of pearls, didn't come along till later.

Hence that sounds to me like a classic case of telephone game, if you ask me. Ie.: more and more embellished and fantasized, as time went on.

Sorry to be a kill-joy, but .... just sayin'

 

[anzayounggun]

Here's some food for thought, for you pearl-ship buffs: Do a wiki search under "lost ship of the desert". And you will find the summaries of all the different theories, and all their originating genesis . Of when the stories first appeared, their sources/authors or supposed witnesses, etc.... Starting with a flurry of reports in 1870 , as you all know. So as you can see, someone's done a good job of categorizing everywhere, in print, that any such mentions appear. Of the various incarnations of the theories and attributions go.

Ok, but a curious fact emerges when you begin to look at the various theories of what the ship could be : (assuming that is, if a "ship" is even there to begin with) : You will notice that NO ONE ever ventured the guess of the "pearls", till 1933 at the earliest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but any printed mentions before that, gave various other origins, other than pearls. So the latest current version of pearls, didn't come along till later.

Hence that sounds to me like a classic case of telephone game, if you ask me. Ie.: more and more embellished and fantasized, as time went on.

Sorry to be a kill-joy, but .... just sayin'

thats cool man no one is twisting your arm to believe or go find the ship no worries. :icon_thumle



What makes you think Botts was near Canebrake? She said they were camped at Agua Caliente Hot Springs. That is Northwest from Canebrake by about 4 or 5 miles. Now, reread the story. They were camped at Agua Caliente Hot Springs Camp Ground. The old prospector came into their camp and told them about the ship. The next morning, they headed out to find it. They got to the spot late that day. The spot must have been a good ways from their camp site if it took them 6 or 7 hours to get there. It also had to be a very steep canyon, because supposedly, the earthquake started a landslide that blocked the canyon. We also know it is steep because even though there was some kind of carving in the canyon wall, they couldn't get up to it.

now to say that moving 4 or 5 miles in over 6-7 hours is far fetched is arrogant. that area is not that rough sorry, especially being led by someone that distance is easily covered. but i am having a hard time fathoming how long that boat would have been there with out decaying but the pearls from 4-5 hundred years ago are proably trash now huh

copy got it.

remember what people say in public is not always the same they say in private (paraphrased of course)

 

[Shortfinger]

Shortfinger,

What makes you think Botts was near Canebrake? She said they were camped at Agua Caliente Hot Springs. That is Northwest from Canebrake by about 4 or 5 miles. Now, reread the story. They were camped at Agua Caliente Hot Springs Camp Ground. The old prospector came into their camp and told them about the ship. The next morning, they headed out to find it. They got to the spot late that day. The spot must have been a good ways from their camp site if it took them 6 or 7 hours to get there. It also had to be a very steep canyon, because supposedly, the earthquake started a landslide that blocked the canyon. We also know it is steep because even though there was some kind of carving in the canyon wall, they couldn't get up to it.

Just some things to keep in mind.

Mike

Okay, Mike, you caught me. I was doing a “quick and dirty” post, and noted that another poster on this thread had referenced Canebreak as a possibility. I never really thought it was likely, since it doesn’t actually fit all of the details, but until the ship is found (if ever), we won’t really know where it is, will we? However, based on the 6 or 7 hours travel time, and the fact that we need to look at a lower elevation rather than higher, I suspect either Fish Creek Mountains, or Carrizo Mountains. Superstition is pretty far away, and not nearly as steep as the other two, but maybe, if they were not on foot. Which isn’t totally clear from the reports.

JB

 

[gollum]

Shortfinger,

We can't do anything but "guesstimate" as to the distance, because there are so many other variables involved:

1. Distance from camp ground to where they had to park?
2. After parking, how long was the hike?
3. Terrain of the hike in (how rugged)?

It could have been a 1 mile drive and a ten mile hike in, or it could have been a twenty mile drive and a 1 hour hike in.

Like anzayounggun said, the area around there is not THAT rugged. If the area in question was near the camp ground, it would have been found a long time ago. Also, those mountains are only typically pretty narrow in scope (one mountain thick). Not too many places in the area that could have had any kind of landslide that would block a canyon (must be narrow and boulder strewn). I have been all over the area around the camp ground. My guess (if I have to make one) is that the ship is somewhere between the Sea of Cortez and the US/Mexico Border. Likely in one of the deep North-South Trending Canyons by the border. They probably packed the car, kept going down the S2 until they hit Ocotillo @ I-8. From there, they could have gone any direction.

Anzayounggun,

They weren't guided. They had gotten directions from the prospector and went by themselves.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Tom,

I have always said that one of the first things I researched after reading about this story was how pearls and the SoCal Desert would have interacted. My ex-girlfriend's sister and brother both own several jewelry stores, so I asked them. The answer: Not well. Low desert soil is very alkaline. That would have disintegrated those pearls a hundred years ago. I agree with you that the whole pearl/jewels thing is likely telephone tag. I think its amazing enough, that there was actually a Spanish Caravelle run aground out there. The Caravelle is a 100% fact. I have been to the gentleman's Home in Brawley/El Centro, and seen the wood used to build the guest room. I didn't take any of the wood at the time, because I figured to get it off the bow of the ship still in place. I have been to the spot South of the 78, but haven't found the ship. It is under some deep sand out there. Anybody wants to rent a GSSI Profiler (GPR), I will take you out there and find it for you. What metal is in that wreck is smallish (or very deep), because my two-box Fisher Gemini won't hit on it. That, or rent a big Hollywood Fan and a generator. We can blow all the sand off the area. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Shortfinger]

Shortfinger,

We can't do anything but "guesstimate" as to the distance, because there are so many other variables involved:

1. Distance from camp ground to where they had to park?
2. After parking, how long was the hike?
3. Terrain of the hike in (how rugged)?

It could have been a 1 mile drive and a ten mile hike in, or it could have been a twenty mile drive and a 1 hour hike in.

Like anzayounggun said, the area around there is not THAT rugged. If the area in question was near the camp ground, it would have been found a long time ago. Also, those mountains are only typically pretty narrow in scope (one mountain thick). Not too many places in the area that could have had any kind of landslide that would block a canyon (must be narrow and boulder strewn). I have been all over the area around the camp ground. My guess (if I have to make one) is that the ship is somewhere between the Sea of Cortez and the US/Mexico Border. Likely in one of the deep North-South Trending Canyons by the border. They probably packed the car, kept going down the S2 until they hit Ocotillo @ I-8. From there, they could have gone any direction.

Anzayounggun,

They weren't guided. They had gotten directions from the prospector and went by themselves.

Mike

Agreed. I have seen a few pretty steep canyons in the Fish Creek Mountains, but not as bad as those to the south. Again, I don’t know how long it would have taken to drive the S-2 back in those days. Was it a paved road? How long would it typically take to get from the Agua Caliente campground to the Ocotillo area during that time period? 1 hour? 2 hours? Longer? I don’t know. The longer it takes, the less time they would have had to hike up the canyon. Here is a quote from the story that you posted on the Viking Longboat thread.

“the couple hiked to the canyon and sure enough, just as the old prospector said, the bow of a wooden ship was sticking out of the cliff. By the time they reached the site it was getting late and in that the ship was so high up on the cliffside to see firsthand without special equipment of somekind they made a notation of where it was located and went back to camp, planning to return the next day with ropes and such.
That evening at 5:55 PM the 1933 Long Beach earthquake hit, destroying a great deal around them including their campsite.”

That makes it sound as if they did not drive anywhere (“hiked to the canyon”), and were back in their original camp (or heading towards it) (“went back to camp,…) when the earthquake hit. But, without more detail, it is impossible to say for sure. On March 9th, it would have been pretty close to dark at 5:55PM, so I suspect they were already in camp. My gut feeling is, they left the camp set up, drove to the Fish Creek Mountains, and hiked up a canyon…. But, that is only my guess, and yours may well be correct. Distance to Ocotillo and the east side of the Fish Creek Mountains is about the same ({around 25 miles, give or take. Another possibility I have considered is the Carrizo Creek/Carrizo Canyon area (closer, around 10 to 15 miles, depending on how far up the canyon they went). The only problem I have with that area is that it is much higher in elevation, and is unlikely to have been underwater in any recent times. Which leads me back to the east side of the Fish Creek mountains.


JB

 

[gollum]

Agreed. I have seen a few pretty steep canyons in the Fish Creek Mountains, but not as bad as those to the south. Again, I don’t know how long it would have taken to drive the S-2 back in those days. Was it a paved road? How long would it typically take to get from the Agua Caliente campground to the Ocotillo area during that time period? 1 hour? 2 hours? Longer? I don’t know. The longer it takes, the less time they would have had to hike up the canyon. Here is a quote from the story that you posted on the Viking Longboat thread.

“the couple hiked to the canyon and sure enough, just as the old prospector said, the bow of a wooden ship was sticking out of the cliff. By the time they reached the site it was getting late and in that the ship was so high up on the cliffside to see firsthand without special equipment of somekind they made a notation of where it was located and went back to camp, planning to return the next day with ropes and such.
That evening at 5:55 PM the 1933 Long Beach earthquake hit, destroying a great deal around them including their campsite.”

That makes it sound as if they did not drive anywhere (“hiked to the canyon”), and were back in their original camp (or heading towards it) (“went back to camp,…) when the earthquake hit. But, without more detail, it is impossible to say for sure. On March 9th, it would have been pretty close to dark at 5:55PM, so I suspect they were already in camp. My gut feeling is, they left the camp set up, drove to the Fish Creek Mountains, and hiked up a canyon…. But, that is only my guess, and yours may well be correct. Distance to Ocotillo and the east side of the Fish Creek Mountains is about the same ({around 25 miles, give or take. Another possibility I have considered is the Carrizo Creek/Carrizo Canyon area (closer, around 10 to 15 miles, depending on how far up the canyon they went). The only problem I have with that area is that it is much higher in elevation, and is unlikely to have been underwater in any recent times. Which leads me back to the east side of the Fish Creek mountains.


JB

My guess is that Myrtle Botts may have left out a couple of key pieces of information. I don't know if it was by accident or on purpose, but there are some very necessary facts missing from the story as told.

It is also possible, that this person that wrote the piece may have left that key info out when he retold Botts' Story. Why would you publicly post information that you could make a lot of money and become famous for having. If he posted all the correct information, then anybody could just follow it and steal all this guys glory. The guy may have also been a crappy researcher. I read the story, and I had several very specific questions that seemed very obvious to me. If I had the chance to interview Botts before she died, I would have pulled out a map and asked her to point to where it was. I would have at least asked her if she could give more specifics or would she mind riding out there with me some time, and point the way.

The whole Long Beach Earthquake Landslide thing to me is BS too. I have lived in SoCal since 1994. I have been through several earthquakes. A 6.4mag EQ in Long Beach will not be a bad shaker 110 miles away. I lived in Tarzana when the Northridge Quake hit. It was my first good sized one, and I thought everything was very cool..........until the telephone pole transformers started exploding. I went to the back yard. HAHAHA

So, here is what I think happened; Botts told her story. Over the years, some parts get forgotten, or the teller didn't think they were important to the story, OR, the tellers left out certain key pieces that may help to pinpoint the longboat's location. That way, over the years, the story gets changed and rechanged. When this guy spoke to Botts, all that should have been cleared up, but I can't say if the guy knew how to interview or not.

Mike

 

[anzayounggun]

i agree and disagree in the same though process let me explain.
Gollum, remember a couple years back on easter sunday there was a good sized earthquake in Baja California i felt that in san diego and La felt it too. But there was minimal damage even in Baja, in small third world houses.(sorry but its true) thats were i disagree that it wouldn't be felt, but in the same sentence i agree if the long beach EQ triggered this big slide then a similar EQ that didn't destroy houses or bury anything known brings doubt to our minds. Sorry but i think that its possible the interviewer left stuff out and/or that because she wanted to have a claim to some fame. similar to where she lived and were i live (the Julian apple pies aren't from Julian apples, sorry to burst bubbles if any of you have been here) small town kinda inside jokes and tourist trap shenanigans. A deliberate white lie all for fun and games is my quess but who knows.....

Short finger remember too this was 1933. a few short years before there was cattle drives (which my grandpa participated in) going through all over the desert and up until about 1950 or so iirc, yes there was trails im not sure i could call them roads. All of those souls made the trip on a rough dirt road. It was unpaved until 1929. Paid for by the Imperial Highway Association, the pavement extended 15 miles from Ocotillo. From there to Sweeney Pass, the road was still a meandering pair of ruts in the sand.
In 1951, San Diego County built a road that followed the hillsides and traveled down the pass, but didn't pave it. but model t and model a cars were resilient they likely could have gotten close to where they needed to be.

Also to all, i had to reread the story and i was slightly off in earlier posts about distance and arrogance my apologies

 

[gollum]

i agree and disagree in the same though process let me explain.
Gollum, remember a couple years back on easter sunday there was a good sized earthquake in Baja California i felt that in san diego and La felt it too. But there was minimal damage even in Baja, in small third world houses.(sorry but its true) thats were i disagree that it wouldn't be felt, but in the same sentence i agree if the long beach EQ triggered this big slide then a similar EQ that didn't destroy houses or bury anything known brings doubt to our minds. Sorry but i think that its possible the interviewer left stuff out and/or that because she wanted to have a claim to some fame. similar to where she lived and were i live (the Julian apple pies aren't from Julian apples, sorry to burst bubbles if any of you have been here) small town kinda inside jokes and tourist trap shenanigans. A deliberate white lie all for fun and games is my quess but who knows.....

Short finger remember too this was 1933. a few short years before there was cattle drives (which my grandpa participated in) going through all over the desert and up until about 1950 or so iirc, yes there was trails im not sure i could call them roads. All of those souls made the trip on a rough dirt road. It was unpaved until 1929. Paid for by the Imperial Highway Association, the pavement extended 15 miles from Ocotillo. From there to Sweeney Pass, the road was still a meandering pair of ruts in the sand.
In 1951, San Diego County built a road that followed the hillsides and traveled down the pass, but didn't pave it. but model t and model a cars were resilient they likely could have gotten close to where they needed to be.

Also to all, i had to reread the story and i was slightly off in earlier posts about distance and arrogance my apologies

Hey Buddy,

Reread my post! HAHAHA I said that "A 6.4mag EQ in Long Beach will not be a bad shaker 110 miles away" I didn't say you couldn't feel it. I have felt shallow quakes from Mexico Proper in Woodland Hills. A perfect example is the Phoenix Earthquake of 1888. Just 40 miles East of Phoenix are the Superstition Mountains (and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine). Some people have stated that the 1888 EQ must have collapsed the mine. Here is a pic of a large balanced boulder in the Supers:



Do ya think if the EQ was big enough to collapse a mineshaft, that it would knock this rock off its balance? Hell, I could walk up and kick that thing over!

Mike

 

[Shortfinger]

My guess is that Myrtle Botts may have left out a couple of key pieces of information. I don't know if it was by accident or on purpose, but there are some very necessary facts missing from the story as told.

It is also possible, that this person that wrote the piece may have left that key info out when he retold Botts' Story. Why would you publicly post information that you could make a lot of money and become famous for having. If he posted all the correct information, then anybody could just follow it and steal all this guys glory. The guy may have also been a crappy researcher. I read the story, and I had several very specific questions that seemed very obvious to me. If I had the chance to interview Botts before she died, I would have pulled out a map and asked her to point to where it was. I would have at least asked her if she could give more specifics or would she mind riding out there with me some time, and point the way.

The whole Long Beach Earthquake Landslide thing to me is BS too. I have lived in SoCal since 1994. I have been through several earthquakes. A 6.4mag EQ in Long Beach will not be a bad shaker 110 miles away. I lived in Tarzana when the Northridge Quake hit. It was my first good sized one, and I thought everything was very cool..........until the telephone pole transformers started exploding. I went to the back yard. HAHAHA

So, here is what I think happened; Botts told her story. Over the years, some parts get forgotten, or the teller didn't think they were important to the story, OR, the tellers left out certain key pieces that may help to pinpoint the longboat's location. That way, over the years, the story gets changed and rechanged. When this guy spoke to Botts, all that should have been cleared up, but I can't say if the guy knew how to interview or not.

Mike

Mike,
Agreed, there is a lot missing from this story. At this stage of the game, It’s not possible to be certain who left out the critical details. Having lived in SoCal for over 40 years (yes, I’m a newcomer), I have to agree that an earthquake 110 miles away would typically not be a bad shaker. The part of the story that says their campsite was destroyed is even more unlikely than the landslide in the canyon, in my opinion. Landslides can and do occur even without an earthquake to trigger them, so it is not implausible that even a minor shaking could dislodge unstable rocks. Maybe not the most probable of scenarios, but certainly not impossible.

JB

Anzayounggun, Thanks for the info about the road. If there was a paved road to Ocotillo from Sweeny Pass, then that probably cuts the travel time in half going south, at least as far as Ocotillo, so the area south of the border does become more plausible.

Having traveled the desert in one vehicle (including shoe leather when needed) or another for 40+ years, I know that traveling in the larger washes, even if there is no formal road or trail is certainly possible, particularly in the spring when the sand is typically denser. There was, of course, an unpaved trail/road down Carrizo Creek, which would allow for access to either Carrizo Mountain or the south and east sides of Fish Creek Mountains. My major problem with any location other than the Fish Creek Mountains is the elevation of all of the other locations. South of the border, once you get out of Laguna Salada, the elevation rises fairly steadily to at least 400’ before you get into any canyons. North of the border, the elevations are even higher. Even Carrizo Mountain has elevations of around 300’ or so at the entrances of the canyons, and they are not particularly steep sided for the most part, although there are a few exceptions to that. On the east side of the Fish Creek Mountains, the elevation just outside of the canyons is only around 60’ or so, which, in my mind makes this a more likely location. However, you don't have to go very far up a canyon to get to 200' or 300'


JB

 

[eldiablo]

Been reading this post with great interest. In fact, I love all of the "lost ship in the desert" stories. In regard to the Viking long-boat "serpent head" (snake head?) ship story by Myrtle Botts, I tend to wager on the side of "truth", especially when considering the age and gender of the storyteller. Not that folks don't get pleasure sometimes from telling tall tales or pulling a leg or two, yet I imagine that she was probably telling a true story of what she saw.

Not far from Aqua Caliente Springs, where they were supposedly camped, there are some fairly interesting petroglyphs which, if you use a little imagination, seem to point towards the Viking ship legend being true. In fact, they actually may be pointing to the ship itself. From left to right, the petroglyphs could possibly be depicting the following:

1) Left-side petroglyph: The serpent-head bow of the boat, including eyes, horns, and the scaled neck, extruding from a cliff perched over strewn boulders underneath. It could also be interpreted as a Norse sailor, wearing the horned helmet, yet with scales and feet.

2) Middle petroglyph: What appears to be the long-boat from above, with what could be oars extending out from the left side, and a possible map (just to the left) representing a mountain range and the number of days walk (or maybe hills) in the direction of the range (pointing to the left, which is back down the canyon trail). The additional drawings below the boat could be attempts to, once-again, depict the "oh so scary" serpent neck scales.

3) Right-side petroglyph: "Y .. / YYY", with other rows of dots (haven't a guess as to what that could indicate), over what appears to be the sun setting in the mountains to the west (in the same direction as the map in the middle petroglyph).

4) Furthest right: Another attempt to depict the scaled serpent neck.

I'll try to post some images here that illustrate what I'm suggesting. Is it easy to post attachments to this site?

Best,

El Diablo