The Offer

[bosco]

As for myself I've never done any type of a cache hunt. But at least in my opinion...and this is just my opinion. But if this was my land and if the amount of the find is correct I would want 50/50. Even at that split all parties go home happy and a few bucks wealthier than they were when they woke up that day.

For the love of God man.. do the 50/50 and go find that cache.

 

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[Frankn]

I am thinking about it!

 

[bosco]

Think about it....if its worth as much as you say it could be worth all involved walk away in pretty good shape. If you don't go along with the 50/50 split you have nothing. If it was me I'd do 50/50 and consider myself well off. Not just because of the money involved but just the basic fact that I was given permission from the land owner to have the opportunity to locate it.

 

[deadeye40]

This thread is like a movie with a bad ending... It keeps building you up and building you up and then BAM!... credits roll

 

[releventchair]

Pardon Frankn if i head of topic,can,t resist. Deadeye40,have you ever seen the movie limbo?. It makes you want to kick the t.v.,twice! Threads about choices and decisions. Frankn gets his tail pulled on his but there his to make. I,ll keep this offer in mind if i get involved with high stakes but it doesn't bother me where he goes with it. I get paid the same. Hoping credits don,t roll yet and its just intermission. got a good size audience .tickets anyone?

 

[Rick_72]

So I'm new to this forum, brand new to metal detecting, but have had a great love of history and research for nearly all my life. I'm finding these cache and no kidding treasure hunt threads the most interesting.

I've never hunted a cache in all my life...well except when I was a kid and another kid down the street used to like to bury his valuables (Matchbox cars and baseball cards) in the woods and corn fields in pencil boxes and give us clues!

But here's my take, and I read to about page 26 or 27 before it got late and I skipped to the end ;-) so I could give my opinion, your original post was about what everyone thought of the offer. Which means to me that you were soliciting a response to fairness or lack there of for your offer and the LO's counter offer. You've stated several times that your problem with the counter offer is the fairness of you and your partner putting in all the work and the LO getting something for nothing. You've had a lot of responses saying "take the 50/50 deal, somethings better than nothing." But that's not exactly a true statement. By your own account you and your partner have sunk $15k into this venture. So actually nothing in return is worth exactly -$15k and how ever many man hours you and your partner have sunk into this find and not into your other caches. Regardless of your thought process, thinking that the party with the permission slip cares that you and your partner are seprate entities is quite possibly your biggest mistake. He doesn't, and doesn't think a cache found on his land needs to be split three ways. I guess I just don't understand why you even mentioned that you were partners when you began negotiating. Why not just throw your first offer at 75/25 and let him counter from there?

Tons of people have mentioned that the land owner may just be thinking that he can find the cache himself, and is probably doing that right now. You've countered that with this catch-22 that only you know. From what I've read the only catch-22 that could be possible that would ensure that the LO cannot find the cache himself is that you've already dug the treasure and need his retro active permission to hunt on the land to liquidate the found items. Since you've stated that you never broken the law by trespassing on this hunt we can throw that out. So that means if you've found a catch-22 someone else could also find this catch-22. See information is never secret forever. It's 9.5 acres, owned by someone you've never met in person. It took me 2.5 minutes, when I got to page 10, to find a company that rent's ground penetrating radar machines for a hundred bucks a day. I'm guessing in another 5 min's I could find a company to read the data that I took from that GPR that would be well worth the price if I hit the jackpot. I can slowly walk 9.5 acres pushing a relatively small piece of equipment in an afternoon...regardless of the terrain. Then when the data is read, all I have to do is dig all of the potential targets that have been produced from the data. I figure as the land owner I could probably knock this out in a couple weeks time. Then if I don't hit the jackpot, I've gotten a months worth of fun and exercise, I'm out a few hundred bucks (I've dropped more than that in a casino for fun and the chance to hit it big), and I know in my mind that you're looney toons. You on the other hand are still out $15k and from what I can gather a year or more of your time.

I think whatever a man wants to ask for his work is up to him. If you feel that your year is worth your half of $8 million...well you're free to ask for it. But come one...don't say in one post that it's about the fairness, then in another say you do this for the money. Cause in business, that's where people do it for the money, money doesn't come from fairness. It comes from negotiating a deal with what you have to offer. You made an offer, the LO counter offered. You've written his offer off as unfair, yet you haven't counter offered. He's already told you that he doesn't like your original offer by counter offering. By you coming back at him telling him that there may be $12 million instead of $150k I think you've essentially screwed yourself out of digging that property. You've given him a whole lot more reasons to hire out to a professional salvage company (which will probably not ask for a percentage, just a flat fee, to simply scan his entire property and find the targets of something man-made underground), or spend the time and money and do it himself. If you're absolutely set in stone at 1/3 x3 I can't imagine you getting this one....I'd counter offer at 70/30 or 60/40 just to see if it's even open for negotiation. The scaling amount that many mentioned is also a great negotiating tool IMO. But at this rate, it doesn't appear that you're open to negotiation. Which means at the end of the day you're out $15k and a lot of time.

What I really don't understand is people that do this type of TH'ing for fun or a living discounting the education and research skills of someone they're trying to do business with or bump in to. If this guy's a real estate investor, which is my guess based on "reading between the lines" of your posts. If he bought the property to flip it quick there would have been a for sale sign on it, saving you 10% on your specialist. As an investor, this guy is probably a whole lot better at research and searching than you're giving him credit for. I also don't understand why you'd have to hire someone to find out who the owner of a property is, regardless of it being a new deed. If you give me your address, I can find the tax records of your home/property and your name in about 20 min's (if that) on the internet, without breaking a single law.

One last thing for this post....I've read people saying "wait him out, he can't live forever." Judging strickly from your posts, you've yet to actually laid eyes on this fella, but who know's what kind of information you actually have on him, do you have any idea how old he is? Because a lot of real estate investors I know are fairly young folks that have time to stay in pretty good shape. Making 9.5 acres of hunting look pretty easy in terms of actually searching the land (I know this doesn't take into account the research time and knowledge). I don't know you, or how old you are, but you said you've been hunting your own property for 40 years looking for a suspected cache (well actually you first said 10 years, so I'm not sure which is actually is). I can't remember if you said that property was in your family as a child or not. So I'm going to shoot out a range of about 45-65 years old for you, because most 5 year old don't own property and even 25 year old's owning property was a stretch in 1972. Do you know if you can wait him out? If he's young and loaded he may clear his plate thinking the risk is worth the reward.

Again, I think whatever deal you feel comfortable with is great. I'm not certain what I would take for the time and investment. But I know for certain that I would negotiate if that's what it took for the possiblity of a multi million dollar payday....because $4 million is worth a year and a $15k investment to me.

 

[Frankn]

Rick 72 You appear to be a new TH since you don't equippment so I see your point of view. You missed a few things. The orginal land owner said HE WOULD ONLY ACCEPT 50/50. That is not a counter offer, It is a demand. Catch 22 as explaned in the thread is the fact that there are 2 lots that the cache might be on next to each other so if he put out several grand to look for it, it might not even be on his lot. Also he doesn't know the markers to the cache. The time my partner and myself spent was not several hours at the library, it was over 8 months computer time plus time in area interviewing people. We found the lots but we could not place them on the map because because of the area has changed so much. That $15k fee is only due on finding the cache.
Here's my advice to you. Pick a cache story in your area and try to pinpoint the location. Then and only then will you know what it is all about. Here's your pick list: http://www.gwizit.com/treasure
Pick treasure hunting at the top.

 

[milehigh]

Wow...that sucks, but if he doesnt budge...........take the 50/50. He could say get out and take it all for himself. Good Luck!

 

[Rick_72]

Rick 72 You appear to be a new TH since you don't equippment so I see your point of view. You missed a few things. The orginal land owner said HE WOULD ONLY ACCEPT 50/50. That is not a counter offer, It is a demand. Catch 22 as explaned in the thread is the fact that there are 2 lots that the cache might be on next to each other so if he put out several grand to look for it, it might not even be on his lot. Also he doesn't know the markers to the cache. The time my partner and myself spent was not several hours at the library, it was over 8 months computer time plus time in area interviewing people. We found the lots but we could not place them on the map because because of the area has changed so much. That $15k fee is only due on finding the cache.
Here's my advice to you. Pick a cache story in your area and try to pinpoint the location. Then and only then will you know what it is all about. Here's your pick list: http://www.gwizit.com/treasure
Pick treasure hunting at the top.

View attachment 652991

Ah, but like you said this thread is not about the hunt or the treasure, it's about the offer. I shouldn't "appear to be a new TH", I absolutely told you in my statement that I've never been on a real TH...except gold prospecting once, which I plan to do more often cause it's really fun and hard work. Negotiating is something I do understand however...so you know for fact that I'm a new TH'er because I told you that specifically.

Sending an email back saying "it'll be 50/50" is a counter offer, as you've already given him an offer. And then, since you explained to him all of the time, money, and effort that goes into the retreving this treasure that's when you say "the best we would be able to do for our time is -------"...you're counter offer to his counter offer. Like I said in my previous statement though, whatever you guys can feel is fair for your effort is what you're free to ask. But when it comes down to it, if you feel that you can't budge from your price...because IMO, he probably doesn't look at you like a partnership as he own's the land you can't touch without him giving permission, more like someone working on his land retreving something that actually now belongs to him (again this is just trying to peer into the mind of the LO)...I really do think he holds the cards. So it's up to you and your partner to counter with an offer that you can live with and feel you're not being taken advantage of. If that's 75/25 in your favor, my guess is you're at an impass with this fella unless you can really get through to him that you're worth it.

Someone said that you're not giving him any credibility without relaying somehow your past finds. I agree with that completely. I doubt very much I'd let you dig up my investment property in any shape or form without feeling like your credentials are legit.

Also, because I feel it directly involves "the deal/offer", I'm not sure I understand your intentions on liquidation of whatever is under the ground. Finding $12 million in gold (coins or otherwise, doesn't matter because you listed gold price...which you're never going to get full market value for btw) isn't like finding a few thousand bucks in coins. You talk about doing things under the table, but then having a written contract with the LO. You're not going to ride off into the sunset with no tax man on your heal's if you dig up $12 million in gold, unless you plan on taking that money and burying it in your own backyard in Mason jars. It would take years to liquidate that kind of scratch and not get seen by anyone in a database. Unless of course you plan driving immediately from the dig site to a municipal airport, renting a plane, and heading to a non-extradition country immediately. The LO, being pegged as a real estate investor, if he's smart is going to claim that found treasure on his taxes because he probably stands to lose a whole lot more than you do if he's caught evading....he probably has multiple properties and money sunk into his ventures.

 

[Frankn]

Rick72, my implication was that you didnot know what was involved in cache hunting. It's not a few hours at the library, it's sometimes months or years of your time that are needed to locate a cache site. No one is handing you a name and address. Your dealing with a mix of facts with sometimes some fiction mixed in. It's not as easy as you think. You are wrong about the liquidation of coins. I have sold gold and silver coins legally to dealers . There is no record keeping as far as coins, only with jewerly. My estimate was the gold value at the time. It might be true that they might bring less and there is a chance that they might bring more as collectors coins. The value of any cache is speculation untill you actually see it. I am a life member of GPAA and have done some prospecting also across the USA. As far as his reply, it was not a counter offer, it was a demand. There is a world of difference between prospecting and cache hunting. There is an old saying, don't Judge someone untill you have walked a mile in his mocks. Here you are on your 3rd post on this forum and you are throughing about 65 lines at me.

 

[Jason in Enid]

So now you are saying nobody can respond to your posts unless they have XXX number of posts on TN? Shameful Frankn, just shameful. I would think you would be used to it by now. Nobody thinks you are right except you.

But then again, there never was a cache, and this has all just been your little game to get people to talk to you.

 

[Frankn]

Jason, My post doesn't say you have to have a special # of posts. It sayes if you have no experience in something don't knock someone that has. You still haven't told me the backing for your remark that there is no cache, of course I really didn't really expect it.
Jason, looks like that storm missed you, oh well.

 

[Rick_72]

First, I didn't judge you or anyone else. You asked for opinion's on this forum...which is to judge a situation, not to be confused with a person, with very limited facts provided by you. So to establish a solid opinion some assumptions must be made in the absence of facts. The fact that I've only posted 3 times on this forum, don't have any equipment listed in my signature, don't have the years of experience in cache hunting that you do, and you dismissing my opinion in total seems to infer that you sir are the one that is judging without "walking a mile in their shoes." What you've done is taken the things that I've said about myself, which are few, and established your opinion of the depth of my knowledge.

Isn't this relatively the same thing that the LO in your scenario is doing with you? Taken the few facts that you've given him and thrown out a number that better suits what he feels is a fair deal? As has been mentioned by a few in this thread, maybe because you've given him so few details to establish your credibility he figures if you're serious you'll come back to better establish yourself with him, and maybe a better offer for him than your first. If you truely don't see the "50/50" email as a counter offer, well I don't know what to say....there must be more to that email.

Since you've made it kind of an issue, and I really don't mind you knowing who I am, here's a few details. I'm a 40 year old, recently retired Marine. As I'm sure you can guess, my job has taken me around the world several times. My job in the Marine Corps was dealing with air support and intelligence processing...which is to say getting intelligence reports from the source and giving them to those guys that needed them to take action on the data. If I'm wrong local farmer's or friendly troops get 1000 lbs bombs dropped on their heads, or helicopter's get shot down by surface to air missiles/artillery. I also did a few years in logistics, where pulling an all nighter researching paperwork mistakes through 10's of thousands of documents was the norm. My power's of common sense, attention to detail, investigation, research of intelligence and map data, and processing through reams of records may just surprise someone like you...who seems to think that only a seasoned cache hunter can understand the rigors of research. My point is, and it was a friendly tip, never under estimate the mental capacity of someone you are trying to do business with. They may just surprise you in their abilities, and leave you high and dry holding only the bill you ran up.

I never implied that cache hunting was easy in any of my post's. As a matter of fact I said exactly the contrary. I've made mention in both post's about the workload and time you've expended. What I did say was that I think you may be underestimating the non-TH'ers abilities to conduct research. You've already given him the toughest part of the research IMO. There's something that may be of great value on his land. The rest may be up to doing some property history research to get him started in the right direction. Property history research is very easy, regardless of your implications that it isn't....I've researched the history of property and land, all the records are there and usually it's just a matter of looking through it all (sometimes time consuming, but time consuming does not equal difficult). You implied that this guy is a real estate investor....if he can't pull together a property history of his own land, well my guess is he isn't much of an investor.

I'd venture to guess you never sold $4-8 million in gold coins to a dealer. I'd also venture to guess that if you try to sell these gold coins to dealers 2-3 at a time spread out over time you're going to go mad trying to collect your riches. I don't suppose that people walk into the local coin dealer looking to unload $20 gold pieces on a daily basis....not unheard of coins, but rare enough that someone doesn't bring them into the same shop every month. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that coin dealers talk just like TH'ers do on the internet...."hey you'll never guess...some dude just walked into my shop with 5 $20 gold pieces today...lucky day!"...."hey wait a sec, some guy walked into my shop with 5 last week!"...hmmm. Maybe not, but $4 million a piece is a huge score (if your 1/3 x3 works out...which honestly I'd love to hear that it does, even though personally I'd negotiate), and in the long run I'm certain that $3.2 million a piece with taxes paid in full and the piece of mind of not having the fear of the IRS crawling up your butt is a better outcome. I'm as adverse to the ridiculous thought of the IRS getting 20% of my hard work as the next guy....but I don't like the thought of 6x6 walls and someone telling me when to eat even more. Can you guarantee the LO's silence in the big find?

I realize that cache hunting and gold prospecting are completely different, I'd have to be pretty mental not to. But there are similar characteristics to all forms of treasure hunting. Skill in being able to do research is skill in being able to do research, regardless of what pursuit it's applied.

 

[robertwhite]

I opened this thread expecting to find a little useful info as a complete noob. What I found was almost 750 posts about 1/3 or 1/2 of a cache was "due" the OP Frankn.

As a complete outsider, I have observed some interesting things in this thread and this is assuming that the original poster Frankn is not full of sh!t and is just in this thread for something to do to pass his time.

Frankn says he is within his right when asking for an equal 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

MOST posters think a 50/50 split is more than fair.

The landowner is sitting on a huge cache (maybe) and won't find it himself or so says Frankn.

Frankn is standing fast on his offer because it is just the principle of the matter and not money driven.

At this point, the landowner is waiting it out, Frankn is waiting it out, Frankn' partner is waiting it out.

That about sum it up?


Good. Here is what I gather from all this............................

Frankn is an EXTREMELY 74 year old man who would rather not get one dime out of this presumed cache than to take a penny less than 33 1/3% of it for himself. He thinks that all his time and effort in his research is worth all the money in the world and that the landowner is just some guy who happened to purchase the land the cache sits on and deserves less than half because after all, he did nothing to find it and something is better than nothing.

Guess what Frank? As a landowner sitting on a cache I could give 2 about the time you put into the find, nor could give 2 about the fact that YOU have a partner or have other people waiting with their hand out. NOT my problem pal. Your time and effort before hand means exactly zip to me. No one asked you to spend time and money on this matter, you took it upon yourself to research something that sits on MY property. How dare you assume that I should only get 1/3 of the fortune that is on MY property. The cache is on MY property and ANYTHING you get out of it is more than you had before. You are the one who won't budge, and you are the one who thinks it is better to get nothing instead of 4 million dollars (assumed).

If you would stop being greedy, you would get 3 million dollars. How does that not make sense? If I was this particular landowner, I would have told you to long ago. Either or get off the pot. Don't think my offer of 50/50 is fair, then I will find someone who does. And the fact that you think no one else will be able to find the clues and the cache is just plain dumb. You did, and so can someone else.

So in the end, you will get a big fat zero and the landowner will eventually become very rich with or without your help. It's just that simple.

 

[ppratt]

Yeah what they ^ said!!!

Just because they dont post doesn't count for anything. My father age 65 doesn't use a computer that doesnt mean he doesn't have a clue. we hunted for 25 years togther and knows more than most.

 

[maipenrai]

Frankn, both Rick and Robert have been saying exactly the same as I have been saying through out this very long thread. And every reply you give is that You are the only one that knows anything about cache hunting, and we actually shouldnt even be commenting on your offer. I have never yet been on the ground cache hunting, but have been doing a lot of research, and the cache's or treasures that I am after are not on the same side of the planet that I am on now, so internet research is all I can do at this moment. So I do know it takes time, as you know, most of the good and probable cache stories, just seem to be circulating over and over, and its not easy to get a fresh lead, that might be real. No one that has replied to your thread has said that you've never done any research. But that doesnt give you ownership of this cache, and everyone knows its the LO that is the owner! Your job is to convince him that it is in HIS interest to let you locate it for him. Demanding, will get you nowhere, and your idea that he knows nothing and dosent deserve his cache is about as silly as it gets.

Thats just the offer part of the hunt, but also your idea of what to do with it is also on the silly side. Rick and I both have said that its not a piece of cake to sell coins to coin dealers. They do have forums, they do talk, and are probably at least up on things as we are here. To believe that they wont start to compare notes and see that some guy is going around the country and selling coins that may or may not be hot, someone will cover his own butt and call in the locals. Then what are you going to do? What about the LO, or your partner? What will they do? If this cache is as big as you believe, get a Lawyer that deals with this kind of thing. Yes it will cost you, but it will cost you more when you are charged with tax evasion. You are not alone in thinking you can off load 3m of gold, a lot of great ideas have been printed here, and most will get you in jail. For some stupid a$$ reason, most think it would be cool to take the gold to another country and live on the beach! Is that for you? Never so see your home again, family, or friends? It works really well in movies, but at 74, are you ready to move into this life? Go to Cancun, and lay on the beach, and in a couple of months the locals will have all your lovely gold and kick you out of their country. Am I being overly dramatic? Sure, but then you dont seem to be able to understand the subtle comments that are made here.

Dont wait for the weather to change, are you serious about that, or was it just a little joke? Oh, its 80 degrees out today, I dont think I will bother to negotiate today!!! You might be a cache hunter, but sure not much on negotiating. That LO may have already crossed you off his "friends" list, but if your serious, you should try to get back on it, not complain about the heat. And to most of us here, complaining about 80 degrees, almost sounds like there is no cache and your just playing on the computer all day. I for one, do believe that you are after something, but you seem to have lost sight of it, and more concerned with your Rights to the cache, and, or our perception of you as a cache hunter. The last two post from new members should wake you up, not start new arguments, about if they are as expert as you are

Get this cache, even at a discount, then move on, and you will be a better negotiator next time and not make the same mistakes, but then you probably think that you havent made any mistakes, so that is like the old saying, "you cant teach an ... ... new tricks"
Man, 3m bukaroos is a lot of money, but hey, if you dont want it, there are a few thousand of us that can withstand 80 degree weather, and have the money for the drive. Talking about money, that comment about spending $100 on fuel was a joke too, right? These type of comments are giving the impression that you probably dont want to give.



Good Luck!

 

[bosco]

They need a like button on here. I love in Illinois and if you don't want it..please fill the rest of us in on the location and we'll go fund it. I for one have no problem with splitting it up with multiple people.

 

[maipenrai]

Hey Bosco, there is a like botton on here, its on the right side.

I dont think Frankn is ready to split up His cache, or would or should. If 80 degree weather prevents someone from working on 12m, then its time for the rest home. Thats too much money, to find excuses not to work on it. Sitting back and waiting for someone to give in is.

Im sure most have noticed there are a few super long threads here that seem to drag on and on, and the common theme is bad weather, the government, bad equipment or had to buy new tires. When your after the big one, you dont come up with excuses like that.

 

[spartacus53]

Well it's high time for me to chime back in again

There have been some very interesting comments on this last page for sure that deal with the whole nature of this hunt. I still believe the most important thing lacking in Frankn's arsenal is the lack of salesmanship. If you weren't satisfied with a 50/50 split and clearly unable to get the the 1/3 split, you should invest in my little book of grifting, which is only $9.95 including tax and shipping

That's right Frankn, I'll show you the ropes for being a grifter, more rewarding than cache hunting by far. By the time you left the negotiations, you would have had that landowner paying you

AS I mentioned some several pages ago,
I believe that everyone will go to their grave not even knowing if there was something there, or not

 

[Frankn]

My gosh, you guys are getting wordy with your posts!
Rick72, well I admitt that I underestimated your ability, but it was based on the info that you presented about yourself and the fact that you mentioned that all it took was several hours at the library. In fact I spent no hours at the library for this one , but over a year on computer and on ground searching, including interviewing. The commet about disposition of the finds way back there was responce to another post. It was pure speculation as no one knows what is in the hole untill he digs it.
I am 74 and may have a couple of hunting years left if I am luckey. I was in the Army for 8 years and built up about 20 MOS's, but have only the greatest respect for Marines. By the way, my Marine friends tell me once a Marine, Always a marine.
The split of 1/3 each for LO, partner and me seamed fair to me, but then again you don't always get a fair shake in life.

Robert White, So you don't give 2 sh!ts about the time a worker puts in! Hope for your sake your boss doesn't feel that way.

ppratt, Lets see, that makes you about 40 or 50.

maipenrai. Hay, you must be mellowing with age. I can see some good points in your post. Actually I like between 70 & 80. Each morning I walk my pit bull on a path I have hacked out of thick 8' tall undergrowth on 5 acres. Above 80 the black winged flies get real bad.

bosco, It's in Maryland!